Back boiler in bedroom?

[HeatStar]

Hi everyone,

I chap I know rents out a flat that has a Baxi Bermuda back boiler and fire in what used to be the living room.

He has recently rented the property out and his new tennants have converted the living room into a bedroom. Now, British Gas have been to do an annual check and service and have classed the boiler as AR on the basis that an Open flued appliance above 14KW cannot be installed in a bedroom. I had assumed this classification to be correct until I spoke to Gas Safe to confirm. I was told that, assuming the appliance passes all servicing and inspections, it can be classed as NCS as long as it was installed before 1996. Needless to say, the fella confirmed to me that it was installed in 1984.

Can somebody please confirm this for me as at present I don't have access to any literature to check myself (hence me ringing gas safe).

Many thanks for any help.

Martin

 

[ed209]

If you really want to ID look out for signs of spillage

 

[snowhead]

Only turn off with AR. ID you cap off

With I.D you have to cap.
With A.R you don't have to but nothing stops you from actually doing it.

 

[lame plumber]

With I.D you have to cap.
With A.R you don't have to but nothing stops you from actually doing it.

ding ding round 5

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's all very well saying that you will cap off an AR situation but the guidelines stipulate that it can only be done with the permission of the responsible person. You now need to explain to them why the back boiler that has been working fine for 20 years and still appears to be working fine is now immediately dangerous.

As long as you stick to the regs you are covered. Just make sure that you get people to sign everything and explain the possible consequences should they continue to use the appliance.

I'm all for gas safety but I need to make a living and getting a reputation as that bloke that keeps disconnecting stuff when it's not necessary doesn't help my cash flow.

People are in danger of putting their underpants on over their trousers and starring in the new super hero movie - Captain Over Zealous.

 

[hammers4spanner]

The real point is that you acknowledge the issue wether AR or ID and inform and address the issue with cust because i can tell you now the way this industry is at the moment i reckon a good percentage of gas engineers would not even recognise the issue and crack on and service it.

some of the stuff i'm seeing at the moment is horrific

 

[snowhead]

It's all very well saying that you will cap off an AR situation but the guidelines stipulate that it can only be done with the permission of the responsible person. You now need to explain to them why the back boiler that has been working fine for 20 years and still appears to be working fine is now immediately dangerous.
.

You have to explain why it's At Risk (of being a danger) to get permission to turn it off for A.R.

The phrase Immediately Dangerous doesn't need to come into the conversation as it's not appropriate.

 

[Mike Jackson]

You have to explain why it's At Risk (of being a danger) to get permission to turn it off for A.R.

The phrase Immediately Dangerous doesn't need to come into the conversation as it's not appropriate.

If immediately dangerous doesn't come into the conversation neither should capping off as it is not the appropriate action for an AR appliance. My point was that if you are saying it should be capped off you are implying that it is ID.

 

[firemant]

You don't need permission to turn it off under AR. You only turn it off at the customer control, or maybe the electrical isolation, apply the paperwork, and the client then decides whether to continue to use it.

You need permission to disconnect.

 

[Reg Man]

ID or AR it won't be used. Lets look at it on a legal position. Your standing in court in front of some smart arse barrister; he questions you on your actions in ID'ing the BBU in a bedroom, then throws the IUSSP in your face and says that you are not competent because the industry procedure says this is AR, so why did you say it was ID. Credibility undermined round 1 to the accused.

 

[kirkgas]

ID or AR it won't be used. Lets look at it on a legal position. Your standing in court in front of some smart arse barrister; he questions you on your actions in ID'ing the BBU in a bedroom, then throws the IUSSP in your face and says that you are not competent because the industry procedure says this is AR, so why did you say it was ID. Credibility undermined round 1 to the accused.

Exactly my view point on this, if I comply with THEIR regs I cannot be held accountable or their system is at fault and that won't be allowed to happen.
Ok as mrs T says perhaps we want a reg change but until that happens I'm using their rules and won't be held as incompetent for choosing what regs I comply with and what regs I change to suit my opinion

 

[kirkgas]

You don't need permission to turn it off under AR. You only turn it off at the customer control, or maybe the electrical isolation, apply the paperwork, and the client then decides whether to continue to use it.

You need permission to disconnect.

Are you sure about this statement?

 

[dancinplumba]

Ridiculous is all this, specially as it's an open forum

 

[hammers4spanner]

Ridiculous is all this, specially as it's an open forum

agree just sounds like nobody knows what they are doing

 

[bewsh]

Isn't there a silly rule that if someone is using the room as a bedroom due to serious illness (unable to go upstairs, etc...) that it's only NCS instead of AR as well? Or am I thinking of something else?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Isn't there a silly rule that if someone is using the room as a bedroom due to serious illness (unable to go upstairs, etc...) that it's only NCS instead of AR as well? Or am I thinking of something else?

in other words you saw one today in this scenario and put ncs

 

[bewsh]

in other words you saw one today in this scenario and put ncs

Haha! No, no, I've been on a training course all week. But I'm sure I saw something in the unsafe-sits in the viper book.

 

[Hampshiregas]

Bewsh, can't say I have heard of that. On the topic if a boiler was installed before 1996 in a bedroom it's NCS. If room has changed use post 1996, then it can have a cupboard built around it with adequate ventilation and a FSD fitted. However I believe this may just reduce the classification to NCS.

Regarding classification if a boiler is AR, unless the customer complains, it goes off, on the spur, with their permission. Fill out your paperwork and notify the customer not to turn it on until rectification work has been carried out. When an ID is issued, regardless of the customers feelings, the boiler is off and supply is cut and capped. When in that situation and the customer flatly refuses and gets aggressive, I would report the job and details to my company, fill out the paperwork and if self employed notify gas safe.

i don't believe you can over classify, you have to look after your own a### it's your job, your livelihood. I would rather ID a job, safe in the knowledge I can sleep well and the customer is also going to wake up in the morning.

So with that said I would still AR the baxi Bermuda. I know your friend did not change the use of the room, but as a landlord I would demand they change it back.

 

[bewsh]

Just had a look in a corgi unsafe-sits book and it says that if the living room is temporarily used as a bedroom due to ill health then the open flued appliance may be classified as NCS, but with additional measures recommended, eg CO alarm.

And I agree, you won't get in trouble for over-classifying an unsafe situation, but you will be in trouble if you under-classify it and something happens. But that said, if the regs state it's AR and you've gone through the correct procedure then if something was to happen to someone in that room, you could not be blamed for it.

 

[Hampshiregas]

Exactly, it's all about looking after number one, that way the customers are looked after also.

 

[Millsy 82]

Exactly, it's all about looking after number one, that way the customers are looked after also.

I appreciate that you are looking out for number 1 but this is a no brainer really as its in black and white. Would you ar a cooker with no chain to look after yourself. would you ID a flue that is not clipped but in perfectly good order. No so why do that on this. You carry out your checks if it passes everything else visually inspect the termination of the flue to make sure it is still there so no little birdies can make a nice warm home in it. Then explain the issues with the tenant stating that the boiler is at risk due to blah blah then the landlord and say the same again and let him turn round to the tenant and say that they should not be sleeping in the lounge.

I have had this twice in the last couple of years always followed that and never had a sleepless night nor worried about it not even when somebody else went and turned it back on with out even noting it as I had the correct paper work all signed. If you want to be extra safe take a time stamped photo with the at risk sticker and paper work next to it just to prove you did all that.

 

[GrahamM]

This is going on, and on, and on.
It is black and white!
The appliance is leaking gas or spilling combustion fumes into the property.....this is ID! You cap off with permission.
A back boiler in a bedroom that is working perfectly safely while you are present is at the very worst going to be AR. You ask permission to switch off the appliance, get paperwork signed, fully explain the potential dangers, sell them a CO alarm.
Job done!

 

[lame plumber]

threads only go on if you keep adding to them

 

[GrahamM]

Well that's me had the final say then!:wink_smile:

 

[kirkgas]

agree just sounds like nobody knows what they are doing

I know what I'm doing

 

[hammers4spanner]

I know what I'm doing

i hope so your the one teaching all this lol

 

[lame plumber]

tongue in cheek note but those that can Do, those that cant teach and those that cant teach, teach PE

 

[dancinplumba]

tongue in cheek note but those that can Do, those that cant teach and those that cant teach, teach PE

So teaching PE is not teaching ?? You are so funny

 

[lame plumber]

So teaching PE is not teaching ?? You are so funny

didnt know u were an ex pe teacher, sorry if it offended

 

[dancinplumba]

Hahaha

 

[lame plumber]

All I remember from the navy training is the PTIs screaming "THIS POSITION READY" and then making us do some more tortuous exercises. When one finshed for the morning my query of " I bet your missus loves you of an evening, this position ready, and one and two and three" earned me a lot more exercising practice, no sense of humour with PTIs