Another Bloody Idiot

[cr0ft]

Just had another idiot (a property developer) who is starting to get funny come payment time. This is despite a detailed written quote being sent out before hand and him agreeing to it and getting us out to do the work. My gut feeling tells me that the work we have been called in to rectify (electrical and plumbing) has all been done (very badly) by him.

I sent him a very polite email on the day the invoice was due as I had a feeling there might be an issue and wanted to head it off before the invoice was late.

His email reply to me: -

Hello Kieran,thanks for your e mail.Can you meet me at the barn at your earliest convenience to discuss this bill (a breakdown of your labour rates and materials,and the unfinished items).Also to quote me on plumbing in the bathroom and building regs have told me I have to fit an extractor fan in the utility.I do appreciate the work that you have done so far and the fact that it is somewhat an ‘unknown quantity’.Once this job is finished to our mutual satisfaction there is some work to quote me on in the other barn.Thanks,Richard . ps do you have the size of the shower tray so I can have the base ready for you to look at.

There were a couple of unfinished items (a vanity unit not fitted as he didn't supply it on the day as he said he would, also a central heating wiring issue not resolved). There were also a couple of extra bits we did at his request on the day. The end result is he got an additional hour or so of labour for free.

He asked me to quote for some other work once we'd finished on the day too. As far as I'm aware there are no issues with any of the workmanship.

To keep this in context, his barn is a 50 mile round trip from Lincoln and our address..

My email: -

Hi ***,

Thanks for your email. I will be unable to get across to [YOUR ADDRESS] in the foreseeable future due to our diary at present, but I would imagine we can discuss most of the items below by phone or email? Certainly if there's any queries regarding the bill etc I would prefer for them to be dealt with in writing.

Regarding the current invoice, it was based on the three of us attending for up to one day at the property. The price remains the same as the original quote you accepted but the schedule of work changed very slightly due to requests on the day from yourself. Removing the motorised valve from the CH system and the work specified on our original quote as being at additional cost (digging up the bathroom floor) was done instead of sorting out the CH wiring. You actually got a bit more work done than originally quoted for as fixing the CH wiring is a 5 minute job. 2 hours were spent investigating the bathroom issue and repairing a leaky pipe under the floor.

We don't really break down labour and material costs any further than what we specify on our written quotes. Just like most businesses, there is a limit to the detail we will give out regarding our charging and pricing etc. Otherwise where would we stop? Estimates would read like novels. It's up to the customer to accept our quotes and if they do then they are happy with the amounts being charged basically! We try and strike a balance between too little and too much detail. I'm sure you can appreciate that if we break down every quote into all the bits we use etc we would never get any work done. I can say though that the materials price used is a very fair price in respect of the consumer unit, RCDs, towel rail valves used to complete your schedule of work. It also includes a fixed cost which is charged to all customers when our pipe freezing machine is used. This actually saves you labour as if we had drained your whole CH system the labour bill would have been around £200 higher for this property [The property is absolutely massive and has an ASHP, 2x plumbed UFH circuits and normal rads].

I hope this makes sense. I'd be very grateful if you could arrange for prompt payment of the above invoice as it's now past the due date. If there are any specific issues with our workmanship then we need to be notified of these at the earliest instance possible as our [DLMURL="http://www.dripbusters.co.uk/terms.htm"]late payment policy[/DLMURL] applies from day 7. I'm very keen to avoid ruining our business relationship by going down that route, as I'm sure you are.

Obviously as soon as payment is received I will get your quote across for the remaining work. I would suggest we quote for any bathroom plumbing and extractor fan requirements if and when you want us to attend to do the work we spoke about the other day?

-------------------------

Any other advice from those who have been in similar positions? I'm not popping back there to justify my pricing as he had a fully itemised quote before and we are charging what we quoted. Certainly not fussed about any further work from him tbh, just want to get paid!

 

[rocketmanbkk]

He needs to pay what was agreed less anything that wasn't done. You've done a bit extra for free & that's goodwill.

Him trying to offer you a carrot by saying he has more work never interests me.

I've had 'can charge less as my sister needs ....' Err no, you ain't my family. I'll discount when I complete your sisters work. Load of rubbish

 

[rpm]

My only comment would be why tell him the CH wiring job is only a 5 minute job? Feel you are leaving the door open for him to come back at you about it.
I gave up playing the Donkey a long time ago mate as I never really got any real work from it.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

I don't get much

 

[rpm]

I don't get much

You rarely do mate, it`s BS for a cheaper price.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Mate stay away from developers builders etc etc unless they agree to materials provided by them and your day rate of £900 a day to be paid daily .

The extra work carrot never worth the hassle
Any invoices i use to send to builders were always very short and precise

 

[Ray Stafford]

Good letter.

Stay polite and business-like, but stick firmly to your principles, and enforce your payment terms.

However, if you think about this, there are opportunities here:

1) Builders and property developers absolutely have to have plumbing work done
2) There will be good, middling and bad builders and developers, simply because there are good, middling and bad in every walk of life
3) Many tradesmen prefer not to work for builders or property developers, because they have been burned in the past by the bad ones
4) The more skilled and better established tradesmen can, generally speaking, afford to be more picky about what work they take and what they turn down, leaving the less skilled, less well established or more desperate to take on this work.

It follow from this that good and middling builders/developers must find it relatively harder to get good plumbers than they should, because they are being lumped together with their bad brethren. So they will often have to put up with dealing with under-skilled, inexperienced people. Which probably makes them suspicious and prone to look for problems, even if the problems arent there. Its a vicious circle.

Therefore, if a good plumber can break this cycle by finding effective ways of:

a) differentiating the good and the middling builder from the bad and
b) managing the business relationship to actively prevent the customer from sliding into "bad practice"

then there is good money to be made.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Problem being ray like all builders if money becomes an issue to them then it also becomes your cash flow problem .
No matter how good the builder is if they have no money then or budget wasn't priced correct then you have an issue.

 

[tomplumb83]

Good advice Ray.

Lets face it, nobody wants to work for builders but needs must. Ive had mainly bad experiences working for builders so I don't bother with them but being as I only have myself to think about it doesn't matter

 

[tomplumb83]

As you've already realised Keiran, this doesn't sound promising!
Keep your eyes on the prize and don't let up till you get your money

Good advice Ray.
Lets face it, nobody wants to work for builders but needs must. Ive had mainly bad experiences working for builders so I don't bother with them but being as I only have myself to think about it doesn't matter

 

[armyash]

Another person who was happy with the price and the work done until it comes to the time to actually pay. Snakes, i swear until i started plumbing i didn't realise how sly, sneaky and money grabbing people can be.

I have come across so many liars, it makes my blood boil, I don't know what it is but i can't believe how many people think they are entitled to something for nothing. Probably not the case with this customer but he is obviously looking for money off somewhere or something.

There is such a "i want, give me now but i'm not working for it culture" around at the moment i am rapidly starting to hate everyone.

I'm going off course here and could start on the dregs of society but I wont.

Nearly every customer I get asks for a discount "is that the best you can do?" One day i'm not even going to respond i'm just going to turn round and walk off.

Hope you get paid asap.

 

[BLOD]

Good reply Croft
Stick to your guns and hopefully you'll get what you're owed.
There really are some arses around at the moment.

 

[Dotty]

Nearly every customer I get asks for a discount "is that the best you can do?"

Just say "Nope, I can do a better price."

And promptly add 10%.

When the clown says "How is that a better price?" You tell him "It's better for me!"

 

[hammers4spanner]

All this tho just goes to show how hard it is now tho from the original pricing to doing the job and hoping you get paid .

 

[cr0ft]

Well he has till Sunday to pay or let me know of any workmanship issues. If not then he gets the same treatment every other domestic late payer gets a week after the invoice date. 8% interest on the outstanding balance and a letter before action the following week.

He owns the property he is developing, so worst case, I have to take him to court then put a charge on the property. I have 2x staff members who were there on the day who would make grand witnesses if it got that far.

I will keep email contact civil with him but won't let up on our procedures. He's not come up with a single reason yet why he shouldn't pay and I'm not going to jump through hoops justifying prices he agreed to by instructing us.

I understand what you say Ray but this guy is just a grade A knob. Full of his own importance and expects everyone to run around after him.

If he doesn't pay I'll be back there to the meter box to take my meter tails back, or at least as much as I can recover of them without going into the house. No electricity should get him to pay up.

 

[cr0ft]

My only comment would be why tell him the CH wiring job is only a 5 minute job? Feel you are leaving the door open for him to come back at you about it.
I gave up playing the Donkey a long time ago mate as I never really got any real work from it.

Understand where you are coming from but it literally is a 5 minute job, I told him as much during the quote appt. Swap over the switched live feeds to 2x motorised valves in the wiring centre.

He got a fully itemised quote broken down into labour and materials for the work so he doesn't really have a leg to stand on re arguing about pricing now. The only concern I would have is if there is a workmanship issue but none have been mentioned.

 

[cr0ft]

2nd email sent after no reply from my first one yet. Trying to appear sickly nice in case it has to go to court which I have a feeling this one will be doing.

Hi ***,

Sorry to have to write again about this but again I'm trying my best to manage our business relationship and get this matter resolved as soon as possible. I haven't heard anything back from you yet regarding any issues re pricing or significant differences from the original quote you agreed to by instructing us. I'm assuming there are no workmanship issues either that have transpired since you shook my hand and invited me to quote you for other work prior to leaving your property on Monday? I've also itemised the differences between the original quote and the invoice (in terms of work carried out) to indicate that you actually had more labour done than the original quote was for, we try to be as flexible as possible with work of this nature.

I'm struggling to understand why we haven't been paid yet to be honest. I don't know if you have read our policy on late payment of invoices yet but to be clear, we do not offer any credit terms to our customers (with the exception of registered business customers whom we agree terms with before hand). As of tomorrow we will have no option but to begin charging interest on the outstanding amount, 8% above the Bank of England Base Rate, calculated daily and compounded. You would need to calculate this before paying any invoice due from tomorrow onwards. Clearly at this point any business relationship irretrievably breaks down, so if you are indeed wanting us to do further work for you I'm sure you will agree it's best for things not to get to this stage.

At all stages of our late payment process I will continue to inform you in advance to give you every opportunity to resolve the situation with us without further cost to yourself.

6 days on, I'm not aware of any issues as of yet regarding our work. I would have thought that any issues or concerns you had regarding the cost of the work or workmanship issues should have been raised whilst the two of us were on site on Monday?

Hoping we can simply be paid very promptly now and put this matter behind us!

Regards,

 

[tomplumb83]

Have you tried giving him a call - ask him exactly when he'll be settling his bill
- Drive over to see the man

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Have you tried giving him a call - ask him exactly when he'll be settling his bill
- Drive over to see the man

The worst thing is getting a blow off answer and checking your bank knowing it ain't ever going to be their!!

 

[Neil K]

Another person who was happy with the price and the work done until it comes to the time to actually pay. Snakes, i swear until i started plumbing i didn't realise how sly, sneaky and money grabbing people can be.

I have come across so many liars, it makes my blood boil, I don't know what it is but i can't believe how many people think they are entitled to something for nothing. Probably not the case with this customer but he is obviously looking for money off somewhere or something.

There is such a "i want, give me now but i'm not working for it culture" around at the moment i am rapidly starting to hate everyone.

I'm going off course here and could start on the dregs of society but I wont.

Nearly every customer I get asks for a discount "is that the best you can do?" One day i'm not even going to respond i'm just going to turn round and walk off.

Hope you get paid asap.

Ash when they say "is that the best you can do?" to me, my reply is "oh go on then I'll do it for nothing and I'll give you a score out of me own pocket too"

 

[Riley]

Hope this sorts itself out Kieran. Sounds like you have a very solid paper trail and that he doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Really hate people like this. I currently have my first one too. Owes £2200 from a boiler install carried out as an emergency last week. I have his approval of the figures and to proceed but it's just hassle you can do without

 

[hammers4spanner]

Good email

 

[cr0ft]

The worst thing is getting a blow off answer and checking your bank knowing it ain't ever going to be their!!

I kind of want everything to be in writing from this point as I've lost all my trust in the man. Calls are no good if I have to pursue the money in court really.

I only have the address of the property he owns and is developing, not his home address. Will be enough to deliver court papers too though as he owns it.

 

[SimonG]

Paper trail will win the day.

 

[plumben]

Ash when they say "is that the best you can do?" to me, my reply is "oh go on then I'll do it for nothing and I'll give you a score out of me own pocket too"

When I get asked if I can do a better price I always say let me just check over my price, sit In the van for 5/10 minutes come back and say sorry I missed something and I've undercharge you, you actually owe me X amount more

 

[WaterTight]

"Is that the best price you can do?"

"Well, seeing as it's you... I'll need it in advance."

 

[gassafe]

I only have the address of the property he owns and is developing, not his home address. Will be enough to deliver court papers too though as he owns it.

Try a free electoral role search, if you have the name & surname & location etc it will often find people's addresses!!

 

[cr0ft]

LOL never saw that one coming. He called me today and popped over to where i was working. He was very sheepish to be honest but paid in full. Asked me to do further work for him. Perhaps that's the result that Ray mentioned?

 

[SimonG]

Result

 

[Atouchofgas]

Probably, realised that your one of the decent guys and you stood your ground. Well done

 

[turnpin]

Good news... that's a worry off your shoulders......glad you stood your ground and got what is rightfully yours.....regards Turnpin:clap:

 

[Ray Stafford]

b) managing the business relationship to actively prevent the customer from sliding into "bad practice"
then there is good money to be made.

LOL never saw that one coming. He called me today and popped over to where i was working. He was very sheepish to be honest but paid in full. Asked me to do further work for him. Perhaps that's the result that Ray mentioned?

Result! Well done Keiran, and to be honest, I think the great tone that you struck in your emails was probably worth at least as much as your workmanship.

A little magnaminity in victory, (take the bloke out for breakfast) and I reckon you might have a 20 year client there.