What size boiler needed

[sherylryan]

Hi there

Could someone please advise what size condensing boiler I would need to run the following all at once.

225m2 of underfloor heating
( calculates on length x width of rooms)

8 Rads at 1470 watts each
2 Rads at 1.176 watts each
4 Towel Rails at 200 each watts

DHW at 3000 watts

21m trench heating at 3500 watts

Thank you

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What’s the Heatloss of the ufh rooms ?

 

[sherylryan]

What’s the Heatloss of the ufh rooms ?

I will try and find the calcs, one room is all glass the other not so much. Bear with me while I look thank you

 

[sherylryan]

The heat loss on ufh rooms is
Manifold 1 - 308 watts
Manifold 2 - 386 watts

I hope I’ve read report correctly

 

[John.g]

Do you mean 3080 & 3860 watts?.

 

[sherylryan]

Do you mean 3080 & 3860 watts?.

I’m not sure to be honest it just shows this on my sheet. I’m picking it will be 3080 & 3860. that makes more sense.

I have also calculated both manifold heat output as per your advise last week and I get

41.34 LPM x 60 x Dt 12 divide 860 = 34 kw. So I’m guessing the boiler needs to be bigger than 35kw?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I get 21kw providing your lpm is correct

Also ufh is a dt 7 not 12

 

[John.g]

I’m not sure to be honest it just shows this on my sheet. I’m picking it will be 3080 & 3860. that makes more sense.

I have also calculated both manifold heat output as per your advise last week and I get

41.34 LPM x 60 x Dt 12 divide 860 = 34 kw. So I’m guessing the boiler needs to be bigger than 35kw?

From "Central Heating Pump" thread, posts 58&59 show measured flow rate of 29.5LPM (5x3lpm+3x4lpm+1x2.5lpm) with 12C dT (52C-40C) which gives a (troubled) UFH output of 24.7kw, the manifold temperature of 52C seems very high for a TMV setting of 42/45C but maybe these readings were taken before reducing the boiler circ pump head.

Can you show where you got the 308 & 386 watts from or a full view of the heat loss page above. Probably best to leave the boiler at 26kw until you sort out the rad zoning and change the other manifold, you can then take another set of readings.

 

[sherylryan]

From "Central Heating Pump" thread, posts 58&59 show measured flow rate of 29.5LPM (5x3lpm+3x4lpm+1x2.5lpm) with 12C dT (52C-40C) which gives a (troubled) UFH output of 24.7kw, the manifold temperature of 52C seems very high for a TMV setting of 42/45C but maybe these readings were taken before reducing the boiler circ pump head.

Can you show where you got the 308 & 386 watts from or a full view of the heat loss page above. Probably best to leave the boiler at 26kw until you sort out the rad zoning and change the other manifold, you can then take another set of readings.

Those LPM on this thread is what is calculated on our spec sheet at time of building, I was just about to comment that that is not what our manifolds are doing, they are currently doing as per thread 58/59.

 

[John.g]

I wouldn't be too familiar with heat loss calcs but maybe the UFH 308 & 386 watts heat loss are per degC difference between ambient temp and required room temp so if you assume say 30C design dt then manifold 1 heat loss might be 9.2kw and manifold 2 11.6kw ??, dT may normally only be ~ 15C so only 4.6kw & 5.8kw required?.

 

[sherylryan]

I wouldn't be too familiar with heat loss calcs but maybe the UFH 308 & 386 watts heat loss are per degC difference between ambient temp and required room temp so if you assume say 30C design dt then manifold 1 heat loss might be 9.2kw and manifold 2 11.6kw ??, dT may normally only be ~ 15C so only 4.6kw & 5.8kw required?.

Yes it think you may be correct. I’m just trying to get my head around the whole system, at build we had a 24kw gas boiler to run Rads and trench heating and a 16kw heat pump to run both ufh manifolds later another 9kw heat pump was install, so troubled manifold was run of 16kw heat pump and manifold 2 off 9kw heat, all this was replaced with a 35kw boiler now downsized to 26kw. I don’t understand how you can removed 49kw output equipment and replace with 35kw,

Attached below is the Rads and trench heating we have installed, is the output of the Rads the heat required from boiler? Eg, total output of Rads is 15,242 watts so we require 15kw to heat these?

Hope this all makes sense John and sorry for all the questions.

 

[John.g]

Yes, if you have a rad output of 15kw then the boiler output must be 15kw, of course the room(s) demand may only be 25% of this once up to temperature. I have a 26kw 16 year old SE Firebird boiler jetted to 20kw but it only ever runs continuously for ~ 30 minutes in the morning to get the whole system up to temp, I run my heating 15/16 hrs/day and once house up to temperature then the boiler on cycle time is often only 30% say 6kw output.

Also, your UFH output seems very high, I often see numbers like outputs of 65/85W/M2, so your 225M2 should emit ~ 19kw, thats the total of the two manifolds if the UFH area is in fact 225M2 so how does one account for this?, you are getting 24.7kw out of one manifold.

 

[sherylryan]

Yes, if you have a rad output of 15kw then the boiler output must be 15kw, of course the room(s) demand may only be 25% of this once up to temperature. I have a 26kw 16 year old SE Firebird boiler jetted to 20kw but it only ever runs continuously for ~ 30 minutes in the morning to get the whole system up to temp, I run my heating 15/16 hrs/day and once house up to temperature then the boiler on cycle time is often only 30% say 6kw output.

Also, your UFH output seems very high, I often see numbers like outputs of 65/85W/M2, so your 225M2 should emit ~ 19kw, thats the total of the two manifolds if the UFH area is in fact 225M2 so how does one account for this?, you are getting 24.7kw out of one manifold.

I have attached two images one that shows the underfloor heating circuits and the second one shows the room in m2. Our boiler for the last 10 days has used 46 Litres of fuel a day, running both ufh manifolds, controlled by thermostats, the Rads have only run for 5 hours in the last 10 days

I hope you can read the numbers on the attached documents

 

[John.g]

You are using ~ 470kwh/day with a boiler output of ~ 400kwh/day at 85% efficiency.
Are you running the UFH 24/7 and what is the "average" ambient temp over the past 10 days.

 

[sherylryan]

You are using ~ 470kwh/day with a boiler output of ~ 400kwh/day at 85% efficiency.
Are you running the UFH 24/7 and what is the "average" ambient temp over the past 10 days

The average temp outside has been approx 11 degrees, inside 22.

I have attached two graphs that shows when the heating has been firing in the last 24 hours it has time for 7 hours 54 mins.

 

[John.g]

Ok thanks, so is the heating/boiler enabled for 24 hours each day? if it is then a boiler on (firing) time of 7.9hrs in a 24hr period is a 33% firing cycle or 7.7kw or 185kwh/day=18 litres/day, a long way from 46 Litres/day??.

 

[sherylryan]

Ok thanks, so is the heating/boiler enabled for 24 hours each day? if it is then a boiler on (firing) time of 7.9hrs in a 24hr period is a 33% firing cycle or 7.7kw or 185kwh/day=18 litres/day, a long way from 46 Litres/day??.

Sorry my apologies, we have a 460 litre tank. It has used half of this in 10 days ( 230 litres) yes boiler is enabled 24 hours each day.

 

[John.g]

18 LPD is probably more accurate than the tank estimated 23 LPD but one way or the other a average boiler input if even 10kw or 8.5kw output to keep your house warm is pretty good IMO, so what's the need to increase it to 34kw or whatever?

 

[sherylryan]

18 LPD is probably more accurate than the tank estimated 23 LPD but one way or the other a average boiler input if even 10kw or 8.5kw output to keep your house warm is pretty good IMO, so what's the need to increase it to 34kw or whatever?

When the boiler was orginally installed it was set to 35kw then downsized to 26 kw because the condensate trapped kept melting 6 times.

When DHW, 3kwh UFH manifolds, 22 kw? radiators 15 kw and tench heating 3.5kwh. The boiler struggles at 26kw

 

[John.g]

If you have a SS condensate trap installed now then no reason why boiler output cannot be increased.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Common issue with oil condy traps most have been converted from plastic to stainless from the manufacturer so might be worth a call

 

[sherylryan]

Common issue with oil condy traps most have been converted from plastic to stainless from the manufacturer so might be worth a call

We had a stainless one installed from the start and pipe still melted. I’m lost as to why this boiler is not performing as it should.

When they down sized the boiler to 26 kw they replaced the burner to a Riello RDB 2.2 26kw - 41Jx with a 26 kw rated nozzle.

the orginal burner was a Riello RDB 2.2R 33kw - 54 kw burner rated to 35 kw with the nozzle. I thought this burner was big considering we were in the lowest possible output of it..

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The outlet pipe melted what temp is it running at should be set at 60 c

 

[John.g]

If UFH is the main form of heating this can lead to very low boiler return temperatures and high condensing rates which just may lead to excess sooting if combustion settings are not spot on as per FGA. This "melting" problem was very well known here but seemed unique to the downward firing Firebird, it also be interesting to see any flue gas temperatures and also I think the temperature can be measured after the primary heat exchanger.

 

[sherylryan]

The outlet pipe melted what temp is it running at should be set at 60 c

Yes boiler is set to 60 c. Melted pipe and damaged baffles

 

[sherylryan]

If UFH is the main form of heating this can lead to very low boiler return temperatures and high condensing rates which just may lead to excess sooting if combustion settings are not spot on as per FGA. This "melting" problem was very well known here but seemed unique to the downward firing Firebird, it also be interesting to see any flue gas temperatures and also I think the temperature can be measured after the primary heat exchanger.

Yes John the UFH is the main hesting, during the day, in the evening the tench and Rads run if really cold. How can I measure the flue gas temperatures? Do you have any photos of where these temperatures can be taken please? Thanks John you are very helpful and I appreciate the time you have given to answer all my questions.

So to clarify, if boiler is changed back to 35kw it has enough capacity to heat UFH, Rads, trench & DHW if all calling for heat as these have an output of 44kw or is a 35 kw boiler to small?

 

[John.g]

You will probably have to get someone with FGA, I don't know where the sampling points are on the condensing firebird, the condensate trap float must surely be melting as well (or maybe there is no float)so this is why important to check these temperatures. I know that the flue gas temperature on my SE Firebird is ~ 230C so would expect similar if a measurement can be taken between the primary and secondary Hxs on yours, Is that baffle damage due to corrosion.

 

[John.g]

Re boiler output, seeing that you can run continuously at outputs as low as 6 to 10kw I think 35kw should be more than enough and even 26kw should do once the house is up to temperature?, your total heat loss shows 929.2 watts so only 18.5kw (blr output of 21.8kw) required at a dT of 20C?.

 

[sherylryan]

You will probably have to get someone with FGA, I don't know where the sampling points are on the condensing firebird, the condensate trap float must surely be melting as well (or maybe there is no float)so this is why important to check these temperatures. I know that the flue gas temperature on my SE Firebird is ~ 230C so would expect similar if a measurement can be taken between the primary and secondary Hxs on yours, Is that baffle damage due to corrosion.

View attachment 76600

Baffle damage is due to heat in boiler apparently, The boiler was installed in September 2019 and baffles damaged September 2021.

 

[John.g]

If that baffle was near the bottom then unlikely heat damaged, did Firebird determine this?, and wonder why no one suggested taking any temperatures.

 

[sherylryan]

If that baffle was near the bottom then unlikely heat damaged, did Firebird determine this?, and wonder why no one suggested taking any temperatures.

If that baffle was near the bottom then unlikely heat damaged, did Firebird determine this?, and wonder why no one suggested taking any temperatures.

Yes as per your above pic these baffles were at the bottom of the boiler, our firebird agent who replaced them said it was heat that caused the damage. Interesting considering boiler was only 2 years old and was turned off for the summer, so boiler only operated approx 12 months of the 2 year period. If not heat what would cause the baffles to do that?

 

[John.g]

COLD would corrode them due to the gas temperature being too low leaving the primary HX, the concern I think is that the primary Hx is mild steel and could corrode/leak. I have put those photos up in our local Boards.ie website with a few general questions, there are some very experienced Firebird people there that will soon confirm the above, or not.

 

[sherylryan]

COLD would corrode them due to the gas temperature being too low leaving the primary HX, the concern I think is that the primary Hx is mild steel and could corrode/leak. I have put those photos up in our local Boards.ie website with a few general questions, there are some very experienced Firebird people there that will soon confirm the above, or not.

Hi John thank you very much, it would be nice to know what happened.
Tonight I put a thermostat under the silver insulation ( see attached photo white arrow) and the temperature was 10 degrees higher than the flow water. Yellow arrow is pocket where firebird thermostat sits

 

[John.g]

Is the white arrow the flow temperature?
The condensate trap does not have a float and is installed correctly a Firebird Tech guy from the home of Firebird here in Co Cork told me, ensure its filled with water and/or check hose regularly to ensure water dripping constantly. Also ensure return temp doesn't fall below 45C, you might measure this (except the white arrow is the return?)

 

[sherylryan]

Is the white arrow the flow temperature?
The condensate trap does not have a float and is installed correctly a Firebird Tech guy from the home of Firebird here in Co Cork told me, ensure its filled with water and/or check hose regularly to ensure water dripping constantly. Also ensure return temp doesn't fall below 45C, you might measure this (except the white arrow is the return?)

Is the white arrow the flow temperature?
The condensate trap does not have a float and is installed correctly a Firebird Tech guy from the home of Firebird here in Co Cork told me, ensure its filled with water and/or check hose regularly to ensure water dripping constantly. Also ensure return temp doesn't fall below 45C, you might measure this (except the white arrow is the return?)

Yes the white arrow is on the flow side. Both arrows are on the flow side. Condensate trap does have water in it. I’m not sure how to get the return temp above 45 as the return flow is the same temp as manifold around 35.

Maybe the boiler needs to be turned up as it is set to 60 degrees, now I’m really confused )

Does the manifolds need a bypass on it to send the flow water back to the boiler that is not being mixed with the return, or should there be a bypass between flow and return after the pump.

 

[John.g]

Turning up the boiler stat/flow temp is no good as the manifold TMV will still hold its setpoint, you can turn up the manifold(s) TMV setpoint by 5C (as long as no damage to your flooring), if you get a return of 38/40C then IMO should be OK and I know of of a few condensing boilers that are running this way for years with no major problems.
If you really want control of the boiler return temp then a bypass of some sort between the flow and return is required (or maybe a low loss header). Don't know if its a regular method but I think a two port TMV (between the flow & return) with a capillary sensor on the return set to 45c or whatever should do the job with the minimum of trouble.

 

[sherylryan]

Turning up the boiler stat/flow temp is no good as the manifold TMV will still hold its setpoint, you can turn up the manifold(s) TMV setpoint by 5C (as long as no damage to your flooring), if you get a return of 38/40C then IMO should be OK and I know of of a few condensing boilers that are running this way for years with no major problems.
If you really want control of the boiler return temp then a bypass of some sort between the flow and return is required (or maybe a low loss header). Don't know if its a regular method but I think a two port TMV (between the flow & return) with a capillary sensor on the return set to 45c or whatever should do the job with the minimum of trouble.

I’ll try for a start to turn the TMV up by 5 degrees to see what that does. We did have a bypass on the side of the boiler that actually came off the flow and feed back into the boiler, but the plumber removed it,

 

[John.g]

Have you got any Flue Gas Analysis (FGA) printouts?

Some good feed back from Boards.ie

"usually with these boilers when you come across the top 2 baffles damaged in this way over airing plays a big part most likely boiler wasn't commissioned after install."
if they are the bottom two the state of the condensate hose would suggest a blockage from the bottom of the boiler.
Blocked trap or poor flow from the condensate pipe could also cause excess heat
where is that pipe discharging and does it have a fall from the outside of the boiler case
I have often come across the pipe rising sharply outside the case
Can your pour water into the flu and see does the water discharge through the turbulator holes"

"Drain baffle made of stainless steel and positioned as shown. Seems to be there to stop crud getting into and blocking condensate outlet. Some times the trap isn't screwed properly to the boiler outlet or sealing washer missing or misaligned. Then the condensate trap doesn't fill properly and allows hot gasses to flow through to damage the plastic pipe."

Re baffle damage caused by overheat or cold end corrosion (sulphuric acid attack)
"Hard to say really without seeing, the scaling on the baffles is more common that you might think"

Re Flue gas temperature.
"Depends on what boiler re the temp
enviromax temp up to 90 at flue
silverpac up to 130 at flue"

"Regular servicing and baffle rotation will also help this boiler looks like it has never been open before"

 

[sherylryan]

Have you got any Flue Gas Analysis (FGA) printouts?

Some good feed back from Boards.ie

"usually with these boilers when you come across the top 2 baffles damaged in this way over airing plays a big part most likely boiler wasn't commissioned after install."
if they are the bottom two the state of the condensate hose would suggest a blockage from the bottom of the boiler.
Blocked trap or poor flow from the condensate pipe could also cause excess heat
where is that pipe discharging and does it have a fall from the outside of the boiler case
I have often come across the pipe rising sharply outside the case
Can your pour water into the flu and see does the water discharge through the turbulator holes"

"Drain baffle made of stainless steel and positioned as shown. Seems to be there to stop crud getting into and blocking condensate outlet. Some times the trap isn't screwed properly to the boiler outlet or sealing washer missing or misaligned. Then the condensate trap doesn't fill properly and allows hot gasses to flow through to damage the plastic pipe."

Re baffle damage caused by overheat or cold end corrosion (sulphuric acid attack)
"Hard to say really without seeing, the scaling on the baffles is more common that you might think"

Re Flue gas temperature.
"Depends on what boiler re the temp
enviromax temp up to 90 at flue
silverpac up to 130 at flue"

"Regular servicing and baffle rotation will also help this boiler looks like it has never been open before"

Thanks john, that’s a lot of information. I will find the I initial printout on install of commission.

Interesting that they mention the fall from boiler, because I have mentioned to the plumber when he installed it the condensate trap pipe rises outside of the casing. I pointed out to him that in the instruction manual it clearly say is must fall 1:40 minimum.
They blamed the baffle damage on our flow and return pipes saying they are undersized. I will go find printouts and get back to you.

 

[sherylryan]

This is the only information I have on commissioning Re the flue gases, very hard to read printout, although can see flu says 97.8 c.

I have attached an image of the condensate pipe, you can clearly see how much it runs uphill.

 

[John.g]

Is the condensate pipe rising up vertically after it joins that "T" or what?? Is it flowing left to right or right to left?
What model of Firebird?.

 

[sherylryan]

Is the condensate pipe rising up vertically after it joins that "T" or what??

No runs outside, the PRV overflow pipe also runs into it

 

[John.g]

When it goes outside (to the left) does it then fall downwards?.

(What is Boiler Model)

 

[sherylryan]

When it goes outside (to the left) does it then fall downwards?.

(What is Boiler Model)

Certainly no fall, it runs uphill through that brick wall.

Boiler model is a environmax C35 condensing boiler, run by a Riello 2.2, 21-41.5kw burner with a .55 80s nozzle giving out 26kw. ( This burner was changed October 2021 from below)

Orginal burner on install was a Riello 2.2R 33-54Kw with a .65 80 S nozzle giving out 35kw

Just found the below photos, Air setting was clearly changed when new burner install. Also blast tube, and damages baffles and door panel.

 

[John.g]

To be clear, it flows from right to left as I indicated? and then runs uphill? but where (at what height relative to the condensate outlet) does it finally level out as it could just mean that the condensate is being evaporated in the boiler and causing untold damage.

The oil pressure at 14bar seems very excessive if burning Kerosene?., should be ~ 9bar.

 

[sherylryan]

To be clear, it flows from right to left as I indicated? and then runs uphill? but where (at what height relative to the condensate outlet) does it finally level out as it could just mean that the condensate is being evaporated in the boiler and causing untold damage.

The oil pressure at 14bar seems very excessive if burning Kerosene?., should be ~ 9bar.

To be clear, it flows from right to left as I indicated? and then runs uphill? but where (at what height relative to the condensate outlet) does it finally level out as it could just mean that the condensate is being evaporated in the boiler and causing untold damage.

The oil pressure at 14bar seems very excessive if burning Kerosene?., should be ~ 9bar.

It doesn’t level out at all

 

[John.g]

So, how can, or does, the condensate drain from the trap??

 

[sherylryan]

So, how can, or does, the condensate drain from the trap??

Well I believe it doesn’t, as the pipe clearly runs uphill but our plumber keeps telling me it’s fine, it does clearly state In the manual it must have a 2 degrees full from the boiler. Possibly why baffles damaged inside boiler, after a years operation. When the boiler fires up all you hear is gurgling noises.

 

[John.g]

It's hard to imagine why your plumber thinks this is OK, the only way that the condensate can be discharged to a higher level, if required, is via a pump.

 

[sherylryan]

Well I believe it doesn’t, as the pipe clearly runs uphill but our plumber keeps telling me it’s fine, it does clearly state In the manual it must have a 2 degrees full from the boiler. Possibly why baffles damaged inside boiler, after a years

It's hard to imagine why your plumber thinks this is OK, the only way that the condensate can be discharged to a higher level, if required, is via a pump.