Pressure Reducing Valve limiting mains water pressure why?

[ecswtrav]

Hello,


I was hoping someone could answer a query that has puzzled me for a while and nobody has been able to help all that much. I have a new mains water supply coming into the basement which has replaced the old lead version. This new connection is instantly greeted by a pressure reducing valve set at just over 2 bar on the meter. My boiler is an ideal iStor (unvented cylinder bolted on to a condensing boiler) - they don't have a good reputation - but this one has caused me very few problems over the past 3 years as its serviced annually. Up to now it works just fine.
Anyway, my showers and taps aren't exactly bursting with power/flow/pressure/ or whatever the technical phrase is. In fact, its no different to the old lead supply. However, I decided to adjust the PRV with a screwdriver and turn the pressure up to see what happened. Instantly the water comes flying out of the taps/showers with some force etc - just how I'd like it. I instantly brought it back down to 2 bar though.
I Wondering what the purpose of this device was, I read the Ideal istor manual and it says this must be installed as the boiler cannot operate on more than 2bar of mains pressure. In fact, the actual boiler comes with the valve when you buy it so it seems.


Why on earth would anyone want to restrict their mains pressure like this? Is there anything I can do to take advantage of having a new mains supply with extra pressure?


I assumed maybe the meter on the PRV was knackered and not giving the correct reading? It could be set at 1bar but showing just over 2? I did notice it reduced in pressure when a tap is switched on - I assumed it would be a constant 2 bar?


Anyway, any advice I'd be very grateful. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

get a g3 engineer to have a look but sounds like the boiler/cylinder is only rated for max a 2 bar

 

[ecswtrav]

I did ask the guys sent to service the boiler recently - not a clue. They didn't even know the thing was a PRV! Not sure that means much though. Any G3 guys on here who could advise?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I did ask the guys sent to service the boiler recently - not a clue. They didn't even know the thing was a PRV! Not sure that means much though. Any G3 guys on here who could advise?

do you know when the valve was installed same time as boiler/cylinder?

 

[dancinplumba]

shaun has given you advise, what other advise do you want ?

 

[ecswtrav]

Shaun thanks for that. It was fitted, I assume, with the boiler which was around 2.5-3 years ago. I always felt the shower was really powerful when I first moved in and somewhat hurt the skin...just dont know whether im used to it now but it certainly isnt powerful. dancinplumba - just wondered why a boiler would be designed to not utilise full mains power and require a reducing valve - is this normal?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Shaun thanks for that. It was fitted, I assume, with the boiler which was around 2.5-3 years ago. I always felt the shower was really powerful when I first moved in and somewhat hurt the skin...just dont know whether im used to it now but it certainly isnt powerful. dancinplumba - just wondered why a boiler would be designed to not utilise full mains power and require a reducing valve - is this normal?

just had a look at the manual and the max outlet pressure of the hot is max at 2bar so even if you bring the pressure up it will only come out at 2bar

if you wanted to get the full out of your main i would suggest going with an unvented cylinder and new boiler (not combined)

but first port of call would be to get a g3 engineer to check the system might be a line filter half blocked etc

 

[ecswtrav]

Thank you again - im assuming the extra power I get must be the cold water increase then rather than the hot - which is pointless!
When you say filter - do you mean the one in the PRV? I was debating getting a new PRV - maybe one that is preset. Either way I'll get in touch with a G3 engineer and see if there is anything obvious wrong and get things flowing a bit bette

 

[AWheating]

If your unvented set up was serviced correctly by somebody who knows what they are doing and g3 qualified they would have checked the prv was set correcctly, the strainer was clear, and all other safety devices were working as designed on the service.

 

[dancinplumba]

Diy

 

[Chalked]

I suspect this is diy! But.

A little advice though!

Your cylinder will be rated to 2 bar, because that's the pressure it is rated at. Ie the maximum pressure it will safely take without exploding! I suspect this an non standard prv.
No more advise. Get a G3 engineer in . It wil save you time, money and heartache .

 

[Sparkgap]

So, the Istor PRV is being used for the whole house? Why? Unvented cylinder T&PRVs are normally set at about 3 Bar so the PRV feeding the cylinder would be set to about 2 Bar. These PRVs are designed for certain flow rates and if you have the whole house off them they could be overloaded and not give you the flow rate, especially for baths. Usual procedure is having the PRV feeding the cylinder and only those fittings which need a balanced pressure supply such as shower mixers. The rest of the house can come straight off the mains unless you've got stupid high pressure.
It's not unknown for PRVs to stick, so get your servicing bod to check it out under different flow rates.

 

[ecswtrav]

Sparkgap, yes the istor is being used for the entire house. On page 19 of the install manual it shows the PRV positioned straight after the mains inlet. So basically, the mains is instantly reduced to 2 bar. I've bought a flow measuring cup as the boiler does state to deliver DHW at up to 35LPM. I'm lucky if I'm getting 8 out of most of my taps and the 2 showers. If I adjust the PRV to say 3 bar the flow is really improved but the tundish on the boiler starts passing water. All pipework from what I can see is 22mm too. Does the boiler pump have anything to do with this? perhaps its on its way out? I will be calling out a G3 engineer but I'd just like to have an idea first before what is going on and why on earth would you limit an incoming mains water supply instantly - it defeats the purpose of getting a new mains connection doesnt if you exclude the health benefits? Thanks again

 

[Sparkgap]

Sparkgap, yes the istor is being used for the entire house. On page 19 of the install manual it shows the PRV positioned straight after the mains inlet. So basically, the mains is instantly reduced to 2 bar. I've bought a flow measuring cup as the boiler does state to deliver DHW at up to 35LPM. I'm lucky if I'm getting 8 out of most of my taps and the 2 showers. If I adjust the PRV to say 3 bar the flow is really improved but the tundish on the boiler starts passing water. All pipework from what I can see is 22mm too. Does the boiler pump have anything to do with this? perhaps its on its way out? I will be calling out a G3 engineer but I'd just like to have an idea first before what is going on and why on earth would you limit an incoming mains water supply instantly - it defeats the purpose of getting a new mains connection doesnt if you exclude the health benefits? Thanks again

The blurb for the Istor just shows the PRV on the cold supply to the Istor, not doing the whole house. As I said earlier, all it should be doing is the Istor and any fittings such as showers which require a balanced hot and cold pressure supply leaving the rest of the house on direct mains. If the flow is restricted has the filter in the PRV been checked? As far as I can see there aren't any other filters to be serviced and the only other thing is the hot water mixing valve. If the cold or hot supply to that is restricted for some reason it would cause reduced flow.
Best get your servicing bod to check it out.

 

[ecswtrav]

sparkgap that's really helpful thank you. The annual service is done by a big insurance company and the last bloke didn't have a clue what the PRV was! I even had to explain it! From the new mains - literally where it joins the house - is this PRV. From what you're saying can I assume this is in the wrong place as it seems from this setup the entire house must be limited by this. I assumed from the diagram inside the installation booklet it was in the right place. From what you're saying the PRV should be situated further upstream before the boiler cold inlet and a seperate mains supply leading elsewhere? Is my setup 100% incorrect or would there be an obvious bit of pipe routing that would confirm all is ok? I've ordered a JET PRV with a clear indicator of pressure and I'm going to have a go of fitting it myself when it arrives to see if maybe the old one is clogged up and not working how it should be. I'll let you know how I get on. thanks

 

[ecswtrav]

Looking at this diagram doesn't this indicate that the PRV is right next to the mains so the entire house is controlled by this limiter? Seems strange to be if so? Or am I just not reading this correctly?

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

its drawn like that so that feeds to all mixing outlets are balanced, you don't want different pressures going to showers etc as the higher pressure feed (usually cold) will just over power the other

 

[ecswtrav]

Thanks Tom, is my setup correct then? Mains inlet, PRV then im assuming one pipe going off to the boiler and another for the mixer shower and taps?

For ages I've experienced an initial burst of power with the showers and taps which after a few seconds dies down to the current flow rate. Taps splutter a lot but im led to believe you cant have an airlock in this system so again im holding the PRV culprit.

Does my setup seem ok because I still believe my entire house is limited by the PRV at the mains. Thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks Tom, is my setup correct then? Mains inlet, PRV then im assuming one pipe going off to the boiler and another for the mixer shower and taps?

For ages I've experienced an initial burst of power with the showers and taps which after a few seconds dies down to the current flow rate. Taps splutter a lot but im led to believe you cant have an airlock in this system so again im holding the PRV culprit.

Does my setup seem ok because I still believe my entire house is limited by the PRV at the mains. Thanks

i would say yes unless you want to run a new balance cold to all your showers and hot taps (if mixed)

 

[ecswtrav]

thanks Shaun, I've looked over it all and it seems to be installed just as the diagram states. I'll know more when I replace the PRV - maybe it is the culprit but having said that I'm not hopeful in going from 8LPM to the 35LPM in should be giving out - particularly if the PRV is set at 2 bar.

 

[Sparkgap]

sparkgap that's really helpful thank you. The annual service is done by a big insurance company and the last bloke didn't have a clue what the PRV was! I even had to explain it! From the new mains - literally where it joins the house - is this PRV. From what you're saying can I assume this is in the wrong place as it seems from this setup the entire house must be limited by this. I assumed from the diagram inside the installation booklet it was in the right place. From what you're saying the PRV should be situated further upstream before the boiler cold inlet and a seperate mains supply leading elsewhere? Is my setup 100% incorrect or would there be an obvious bit of pipe routing that would confirm all is ok? I've ordered a JET PRV with a clear indicator of pressure and I'm going to have a go of fitting it myself when it arrives to see if maybe the old one is clogged up and not working how it should be. I'll let you know how I get on. thanks

Ideally, fit the PRV on the cold feed to the Istor. The separate cold feed to any shower or mixer valves should come off after the PRV as well to give a balanced supply. Everything else in the house should be directly off the mains and not the PRV.
If the servicing bloke doesn't know what the PRV is for and how to service it then WHAT THE **** IS HE DOING TOUCHING THE SYSTEM AT ALL? The Istor O&M booklet shows how to remove the PRV and clean the filter so this would be the first place to look.

 

[AWheating]

pressure does not equal flow rate, get a proper engineer to service the valve/ set up, if its faulty then get the engineer to change it for the correcty type. it may simply need cleaning out.

the reason the pressure is limited is for safety and correct operation of the safety controls which all need testing on the service.

 

[ecswtrav]

Just a quick update - thanks for all who have helped out. Had a neighbour install the PRV this evening set at 2 bar as recommended by Ideal - he's a mutliskilled fella but not a boiler specialist. The PRV installed is a JET model with a simple way of setting it to 2 bar.
Flow has increased by a litre a minute or so but its still far below the 35lpm indicated in the boiler blurb and the 11lpm supposedly on a depleted tank - I dont get 11lpm on a full tank in the hot tap next to the boiler!
I couldnt help but look at the mains where it enters the house. Can anyone explain why the mains enters the house with a big new plastic pipe which seems to be instantly reduced to 15mm. This then attaches to the PRV which then has a copper pipe leaving to the boiler on 22mm. Could this be restricting flow? Can anyone shine any light on this?

is any new mains connection instantly reduced to a 15mm pipe?

 

[Sparkgap]

Just a quick update - thanks for all who have helped out. Had a neighbour install the PRV this evening set at 2 bar as recommended by Ideal - he's a mutliskilled fella but not a boiler specialist. The PRV installed is a JET model with a simple way of setting it to 2 bar.
Flow has increased by a litre a minute or so but its still far below the 35lpm indicated in the boiler blurb and the 11lpm supposedly on a depleted tank - I dont get 11lpm on a full tank in the hot tap next to the boiler!
I couldnt help but look at the mains where it enters the house. Can anyone explain why the mains enters the house with a big new plastic pipe which seems to be instantly reduced to 15mm. This then attaches to the PRV which then has a copper pipe leaving to the boiler on 22mm. Could this be restricting flow? Can anyone shine any light on this?

is any new mains connection instantly reduced to a 15mm pipe?

No, it's reduced/expanded to whatever size you want! Have you got a pressure gauge on the outlet of the PRV? (Assuming so if you've managed to set it to 2 Bar) How does the pressure in the system change when you open a cold tap? If it drops too much then the problem is your incoming supply. If not then it's in the Istor or your pipework. For a house though I'd be looking at least 22mm pipe or larger for the incoming.

 

[Chris_Swansea]

In simple terms the pressure reducing valve keeps the cold mains supply at no more than 2bar, the pressure relief valve is set at 6bar on unvented systems leaving 4bar for expansion in to cold water main before 6bar prv blows off into discharge pipework, a expansion vessel rated for the system is also added and normally charged at 3bar to help accommodate this expansion. But lets not forget the main reason that only competent persons install/service/repair is that 1ltr of water is turned into 1600ltrs of steam should hot water vessel fail,
and as for replacing the pressure reducing valve most installers fit unvented systems as kits, as all components are suited for that system, so should only be replaced with the same part that was fitted.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

In simple terms the pressure reducing valve keeps the cold mains supply at no more than 2bar, the pressure relief valve is set at 6bar on unvented systems leaving 4bar for expansion in to cold water main before 6bar prv blows off into discharge pipework, a expansion vessel rated for the system is also added and normally charged at 3bar to help accommodate this expansion. But lets not forget the main reason that only competent persons install/service/repair is that 1ltr of water is turned into 1600ltrs of steam should hot water vessel fail,
and as for replacing the pressure reducing valve most installers fit unvented systems as kits, as all components are suited for that system, so should only be replaced with the same part that was fitted.

slightly wrong but close all depends on what your system/ boiler is rated to if the cylinder is only rated for 2 bar and the expansion vessel should take any expansion that is needed due to heat up

 

[Unregistered]

That's why I said simple the point I was making was don't mess around, It may not be gas but can cause as much damage if it goes wrong