OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[trf0412]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.
Seems to be a very decent and forgiving person.
I doubt if I would get away with that work for many of my customers.

Well, unfortunately it's not that simple to just sack someone and find an alternative when your bathroom has been ripped out and you have a family (with two kids under the age of 3) to think about. The time it takes to get a quote and find someone with availability in the area where we live would delay things by several weeks or months.

But I think the main reason I come across as forgiving is because as a customer, with very little to no knowledge of plumbing, I don't feel qualified to criticise work done by someone who is supposed to be a professional plumber. The only reason I was confident about questioning the waste pipework was because gravity is something everyone knows about (apart from our plumber it would seem!!).

Also, the suggestion to rip out everything he's done and start from scratch won't address the problem with the notches and holes not complying with building regs, so provided I can make sure there is a fall from the basin, what is there to be gained from starting again? Granted, the wastes could all be kept separate if everything was redone, but that would mean cutting more holes and weakening joists even more, so not ideal...

 

[trf0412]

He probably should have used a length of pipe between the tee and the elbow, right?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I wouldn't be happy with that (with what I've seen in the pic)


Basin pipe going through the joist too short

11/2 - 11/4 reducer not all the way in and male to female elbow the same

 

[trf0412]

Basin pipe going through the joist too short

11/2 - 11/4 reducer not all the way in and male to female elbow the same

Oh dear...! What issues are likely to arise from basin pipe going through joist being too short?

I showed plumber a screenshot of your suggested fix, and thought for the most part he'd done what I asked, but I didn't realise it was still so sub-standard.

I wondered whether the reducer should be sticking out the way it is, but provided there's a good seal, will that be a problem?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Other than looking terrible and putting more stress t end no

And supposed to be flush same with the elbow they could pop out

 

[FG28]

fitted bathrooms for years before doing the gas and now do the occasional one or two ,
All i can say is
Not even nvq1 level ,.
It will all work but it just looks horrific ,,
Be very intrested to see the finishing ,?
Is he tiling it too
Aqua panel or similair used around shower area ?
Intial silicone seal round tray ?
The lists endless ,.
Next time id just pay that little bit more and get a proper bathroom fitter not john the pushfit cowboy ,.
Good luck

 

[trf0412]

fitted bathrooms for years before doing the gas and now do the occasional one or two ,
All i can say is
Not even nvq1 level ,.
It will all work but it just looks horrific ,,
Be very intrested to see the finishing ,?
Is he tiling it too
Aqua panel or similair used around shower area ?
Intial silicone seal round tray ?
The lists endless ,.
Next time id just pay that little bit more and get a proper bathroom fitter not john the pushfit cowboy ,.
Good luck

The "it will all work" bit gives me at least some peace of mind, as it's been a bit stressful worrying about all this. But I won't be getting the ceiling below patched up until the bathroom has been in use for a few weeks, just to be on the safe side!

Pretty much all the bathroom fitters were quoting with a couple of hundred of each other, and I didn't go with the cheapest quote...

It's someone else doing the tiling.

Is it wrong to silicone the shower tray in place? I've a feeling that's what he's done...

 

[FG28]

The "it will all work" bit gives me at least some peace of mind, as it's been a bit stressful worrying about all this. But I won't be getting the ceiling below patched up until the bathroom has been in use for a few weeks, just to be on the safe side!

Pretty much all the bathroom fitters were quoting with a couple of hundred of each other, and I didn't go with the cheapest quote...

It's someone else doing the tiling.

Is it wrong to silicone the shower tray in place? I've a feeling that's what he's done...

If its a resin tray it HAS to be cement or a rapid set adhesive , there are quite a few that can be put down using mastic but i would not use a normal silicone , something like CT1 or sticks like , 2 very good grabs adhesives ,
Id google your tray fitting instructions if he hasnt left them there , else that really will come back to bite
Bathrooms really are simple if you do plumbing day in day out , can clearly see you fitter doesnt ? Is he young ? Cut him a little slack if hes just started out ,.

 

[trf0412]

If its a resin tray it HAS to be cement or a rapid set adhesive , there are quite a few that can be put down using mastic but i would not use a normal silicone , something like CT1 or sticks like , 2 very good grabs adhesives ,
Id google your tray fitting instructions if he hasnt left them there , else that really will come back to bite
Bathrooms really are simple if you do plumbing day in day out , can clearly see you fitter doesnt ? Is he young ? Cut him a little slack if hes just started out ,.

Yep, we have a stone resin tray, so I will definitely be looking for the instructions to see what they say. If he did use silicone, I think it may have been the Dow Corning one (good quality one?), as that got mentioned at one point. If it turns out it should have been cemented in and wasn't, what are the sorts of things that could go wrong?

Yep, he's pretty young (24) so I'm hoping the mistakes are due to lack of experience and not due to lack of training/qualifications! But I get the impression he's fitted quite a few bathrooms in his time.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

24 he should have an nvq if he doesn't he's not qualified

 

[trf0412]

Yep, shower tray instructions say tray must be installed on bed of sand & cement. I'm 90% sure I didn't see him put down any sand & cement unless he managed to knock some up and install it in the 15-0r-so mins I wasn't looking! But, I can see no sign whatsoever of a sand & cement mix having oozed out beyond the edge of the tray, which I think would be the case if it had been used, right?

I was happy to cut him a little slack with the messed up waste pipes (on the assumption I could get someone else in to fix things from below if absolutely necessary), but not installing a tray correctly and leaving open the possibility of it cracking several months or years down the line and leaving me with a big mess on my hands is making me seriously consider finding someone else to finish the job!

Just how easy will it be to remove it now he's siliconed it into place? Can the silicone be carefully cut away or have I already got a big problem on my hands?

 

[Best]

Probably the silicone will have glued the tray to the floor enough to prevent you moving it without damaging it.
Hard one to call, but if it is installed level and seem solid with no movement, it might not give trouble. Risk is yours though.

 

[trf0412]

Probably the silicone will have glued the tray to the floor enough to prevent you moving it without damaging it.
Hard one to call, but if it is installed level and seem solid with no movement, it might not give trouble. Risk is yours though.

Hmm... tricky. It's sat on a new piece of OSB flooring, so pretty level, but do I want to take the risk when the installation instructions say it must be installed STRICTLY in accordance with them? If I go down the route of removing it and it gets damaged, couldn't I deduct the cost of a replacement from what I pay him, since it would have been directly due to his negligence?

Talking of which, how do plumbers and clients generally agree on an amount to be paid when work is cut short in cases when the quote is for the whole job? Any advice?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Osb ? really tbh should be 18 marine ply

And work - anything bad / having to be re done which is most of it in my opinion

 

[trf0412]

We agreed on marine ply when he quoted me... and it got mentioned again in an email. Then the day he started the job he talked about using chipboard! I talked him out of that and we ended up with OSB, which I thought was as strong as ply and therefore this didn't concern me too much. What are the main reasons for using marine ply over OSB? (i.e. should I be considering having the flooring changed over?)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

We agreed on marine ply when he quoted me... and it got mentioned again in an email. Then the day he started the job he talked about using chipboard! I talked him out of that and we ended up with OSB, which I thought was as strong as ply and therefore this didn't concern me too much. What are the main reasons for using marine ply over OSB? (i.e. should I be considering having the flooring changed over?)

If it's gets wet for any reason it goes to mush and fails

That's mainly why we install cylinders or tanks on ply bases

 

[trf0412]

If it's gets wet for any reason it goes to mush and fails

That's mainly why we install cylinders or tanks on ply bases

OSB goes to mush as well? I know that happens with chipboard, but didn't know about OSB. So, if I have the tray redone, would you suggest replacing with marine ply? Or is that more of a belts & braces approach and OSB is just about ok?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

OSB goes to mush as well? I know that happens with chipboard, but didn't know about OSB. So, if I have the tray redone, would you suggest replacing with marine ply? Or is that more of a belts & braces approach and OSB is just about ok?

Well I would but will only go to mush if it's wet so thinking like that just make sure all your seals are good and mastics are good quality and are re sealed pre actively you should be fine

 

[trf0412]

What else should I be on the lookout for?

Hopefully all the hot & cold feeds are ok, as the room has now been plastered (no concerns there, though, as we used our own plasterer who has done an excellent job - put up a new suspended ceiling to make sure it's dead level, built out a wall so bath isn't sat in a corner which isn't a right angle etc.).

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Atm nothing should be just second fix if your happy ish atm

 

[trf0412]

Yeah, that's what I mean... what things could go wrong at the point of 2nd fix? He's already (i) shown complete ignorance of building regs, (ii) messed up waste pipes, even on 2nd attempt, (iii) stuck down stone resin shower tray with silicone. I can't do much about (i) and (ii) has been partly resolved.

I don't really want to let him mess around fixing the shower tray issue, but if I can't find anyone else, are there many more things he could screw up during 2nd fix or has most of the damage been done?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

TBH I would say most of the damage has been done second fix is the easy ish part

 

[trf0412]

Ah, right... tough call to make then....

I can live with the OSB, even though it's not what we agreed.
I can live with the fact he made schoolboy errors when cutting out floorboards.
I'm not happy with the holes and notches, but can't do much about it now.
I'm not entirely happy with waste pipes, but they are at least better now and just about acceptable if I can tweak it to give it more of a fall.

But the shower tray issue is causing me to rethink things. What's the point of spending thousands of a new bathroom if there's a real risk of the tray cracking some unspecified time down the line? Replacing that would cost hundreds if not thousands given all the upheaval and retiling that would be required.

I think it's going to be a case of getting someone else in to finish the work or else accepting that the shower tray isn't installed as per the manufacturer's instructions and hoping it never cracks. Asking the current plumber to redo the tray is not an option I'm willing to consider.

 

[FG28]

Ah, right... tough call to make then..

I can live with the OSB, even though it's not what we agreed.
I can live with the fact he made schoolboy errors when cutting out floorboards.
I'm not happy with the holes and notches, but can't do much about it now.
I'm not entirely happy with waste pipes, but they are at least better now and just about acceptable if I can tweak it to give it more of a fall.

But the shower tray issue is causing me to rethink things. What's the point of spending thousands of a new bathroom if there's a real risk of the tray cracking some unspecified time down the line? Replacing that would cost hundreds if not thousands given all the upheaval and retiling that would be required.

I think it's going to be a case of getting someone else in to finish the work or else accepting that the shower tray isn't installed as per the manufacturer's instructions and hoping it never cracks. Asking the current plumber to redo the tray is not an option I'm willing to consider.

He needs sacking
Osb floor , seriously got to be a wind up this Siliconed resin tray , against all mi s which in turn foooks the guarantee which will no doubt come back to haunt you
Did he pva the osb before laying it or did he bosh it straight onto dusty osb
Are the walls aqua paneled or greenmoisture resistant plaster board
I would not be letting it go any further
Imo that tray needs to be redone ,.

 

[FG28]

 

[FG28]

heres a pic of a resin tray i had to take out as it had failed , installed on chipboard floor and siliconed down
The end result after approx 14 months in a rented property
Up to you mate

 

[Best]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.
As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

 

[Best]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

 

[FG28]

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

Ever since john guest popped up everyones a plumber , thats the problem ,

 

[FG28]

 

[oz-plumber]

The 'Plumber' who did that work is not a plumber.

The worst plumber - on a bad day - could not do what this 'Plumber' did.
The first picture of the drain says it all.
-Drains falling the wrong way and the junction incorrectly installed.

The fact is, the 'plumber' who did this has absolutely no idea what he is doing and definitely no experience in the trade.
He could never have worked under anyone to train and teach him how to do things properly.

If you asked people in the street what way should the water flow through this junction, I reckon 75% of them would give you the correct answer by looking at the fitting - and this bloke installed it the wrong way - that says alot

Whats worse is that he has unleashed his inexperience on an unsuspecting homeowner and it will be the homeowner that will have to foot the bills for repairs.

What do you guy's reckon it would cost to put everything right at this stage.

Let alone accessing everything in 12 to 18 months to redo it then.

 

[trf0412]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.

I'd be happy for a new plumber to start from scratch, except for the hot and cold pipework going to the shower/bath/basin/toilet, as these have now been plastered over and I'm not sure ripping them out and having to replaster all over again will help much? (...assuming they are all done ok). But redoing the wastes would make sense, hopefully not requiring cutting any more holes or notches.

As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

Thanks - I'll have to give this some thought. I've now told him I will be finding someone else to do the remedial works and finish the job. He wasn't very happy about me questioning things, of course, and insisted that that is how he always lays shower trays and assured me I wouldn't have a single problem (...and that he was so sure of this that he would guarantee to come back to fix everything at his cost if anything went wrong... etc, etc). Anyway, he's asking for about 55% of what he quoted for the plumbing element of the job (luckily for me, plastering, tiling etc were itemised on the quote) for having completed the 1st fix. That sounds about right, in the sense that the 2nd fix is less labour (or that's the impression I get), so in principle I would be happy to pay him what he's asked for. My main issue is if the shower tray cracks when it gets removed to be re-fitted. Should I deduct the replacement cost from what I give him? And since he didn't finish the job, he didn't get round to disposing of the waste, which I guess will not be my responsibility.

 

[trf0412]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Thanks! Feeling a bit sorry for myself too...

 

[trf0412]

Any suggestions how to go about removing the shower tray that's been stuck down? I'm inclined to rectify this part of the mess myself, and leave the new plumber (once I've got a replacement sorted) to just connect up the waste since he'll have access from below.

If I manage to remove the tray, I will also lay a new section of flooring (since old plumber has cut out a much larger section than permitted by the installation instructions). Would it be ok to put down 18mm marine ply and leave the other half of the floor with OSB? The reason is the bath has already been screwed to the floor and siliconed to the wall and I would prefer to avoid disrupting this if possible.

 

[Ric2013]

I once installed a (2nd hand - customer supplied) shower tray on a wooden plinth using 'sticks like' on the basis that sticks like will go hard enough to avoid flexing, unlike silicone. Would people say this is wrong? And are we sure the plumber sat his tray on silicone and not gripfill, no more nails, or similar?

 

[Best]

I have installed most trays with plaster or sand and cement, but I must confess I have also used tile adhesive or silicone on some, but only where suitable. I think silicone would be absolutely fine if just bedding a tray that just needed the surface very slight irregularities evened out, but otherwise dead level surface.
New and old timber moves and dries, so doesn't matter what you do, trays will move

 

[trf0412]

I can't be sure how many irregularities the tray has or how minor/major they are, but from the last 2 posts it's starting to sound like silicone isn't necessarily as bad as I thought people were saying it was?

Is the main issue simply the fact that not bedding it in to sand & cement would void the warranty? Or is the tray significantly more likely to crack if installed on silicone? It would be interesting to know the statistics re. how many correctly vs incorrectly installed trays crack...

 

[Best]

Most trays that crack aren't properly bedded on anything.
Warranty will be void if not to MIs, but that doesn't mean tray will give trouble

 

[trf0412]

Well, I don't think our tray is properly bedded on silicone either. From below I can poke a thin bit of wood in between the shower tray and the flooring, so there's definitely no support in those places, and definitely no support in the big waste cut-out he did. Sounds like it's not worth taking the risk of not fixing it... but how do I go about removing the tray currently stuck down with silicone?! Not looking forward to this...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift and hope for the best pry bar works the best

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 30873

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

 

[Best]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

 

[Old Account]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

The whole job should come out of his pocket. Each pipe and joint as well as each minute for the other engineer ( qualified ) should be paid from his pocket.

 

[trf0412]

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

 

[Best]

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

He could take you to Small Claims Court for any amount extra he thinks he is due but you could fight it or also claim of him.
He would have to prove his work was satisfactory etc, likewise you would have to prove the work was badly done and therefore unacceptable. A qualified plumbers report on the work would be enough evidence for you to take to court to counter your first plumber.
I would take plenty of photos of all the work,the rubble, etc, left not taken away, plus stage by stage removal of faults, like shower tray base.
Manufacturers instructions, building regs for evidence and any quotes your plumber gave you. Judges love plenty of evidence.
I don't think you will have a problem with the plumber as he will know he is in the wrong, but best you gather evidence now and retain it.
Keep any communications - letter, emails, texts, etc, polite and reasonable, as you also need those as proof of your objections, so have copies.
My take on all this is your plumber probably deserves to be paid for any labour done correctly, - so whatever cost for removing old bathroom suite, plus some money for basic labour and not too much extra. You really need what you were going to pay him, to be paid to another plumber

 

[trf0412]

Thanks - very helpful advice. Re. paying him for "any labour done correctly", that's where there's going to be a fair amount of disagreement as in his mind everything was done correctly!

I'm going to go back to the person who recommended him to me to see if they know whether he has any qualifications, because even I'm starting to question whether he has any plumbing qualifications or just learnt on the job!

 

[Old Account]

As @Best has said, take all relevant pictures. At the claim court it's important what you can proof not what you know or have heard. The more you can proof the better it's for you. Everyone can tell it is a bodge job and not done to a satisfactory standard. I would refuse to pay, wouldn't even pay a penny until it's put right. I'd rather take him to the claim court if he is not willing to sort the pipework out. I always take pictures because not only builders doing rough jobs you've got more rough customers than cowboy builders. And those people like to go to claim courts and trying to get things done for free. However, in your case it is clearly the builders fault. Good luck

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

 

[oz-plumber]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

In that case the 'Plumber?' that did the work will be owing the OP a truck load of cash.

I can;t believe the OP was willing to pay 55% of the quote to the 'Plumber?' .. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

This is getting more weird by the moment.

I wish to retract my previous statement that I am starting to feel sorry for the OP.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.
In that case, he should get a qualified plumber in to sort out the 'mess'