Mr Wilsons full system build

[Mr Wilson]

Greetings Folks...

i decided to start my own build log for an upcoming project im undertaking over the next year. My main reason for starting a log is so that any questions i have i wont have to repeat information about the build and it will all be in one place and as i progress im hoping that if im heading in a wrong direction or have forgotten or overlooked something someone who takes interest will be able to point things out of prevent me from making mistakes. Perhaps someone like myself who is planning on doing such a job may get something out of it at the very least learn from my mistakes ...

Ok so for the job itself we purchased a big 3 story 1800 german Hof (farmhouse) building required total surface renovation and modernization. total size of the house is about 300m2 and heating came from night powered electric heaters and Domestic potable ho****er coming from instant electric boilers. We looked into all forms of heating and decided to go with gas due to its the cheapest startup costs and high efficiencies.

I do have a certified gas fitter to plumb in mains and do final connection to boiler but he dosent speak english and i no german. my main job will be to run mains water to boiler location, chase all walls for plumbing and install rads. will be installing as i renovate room by room so this build will take at least 6 months. that being said weve been in the house for 6 months now and build a kitchen living 2 bedrooms and just finnishing the new 2 bed rooms this week.
installing a Viessmann Vitodens 222-F combi boiler not decided if 26 or 35kW unit as of yet.
Will require 18 rads over the 3 floors will be using 20mm Pex with crimped fittings in walls and copper in boiler room. running dhw to 2 bathrooms both will require full renovation actually currently only 1 bathroom on lower floor and converting rooms on 2nd floor into a new bathroom maybe installing underfloor heating depends on what we find when floorboards come up and if joists will carry a screed.

attached are floor plans which ill need to update at some point gets the idea across for now.

thanks in advance for all and any input you guys have and i appreciate all your thoughts over the months :cool4:



first floor 2nd floor 3rd floor first floor 2nd floor

 

[Riley]

Good luck and should be interesting to see how it progresses. Due to different rules and regs it may be wise to enlist someone on a translation basis. I know the guys on here won't mind giving input but it would be difficult and wrong of us to tread on your fitters toes. Something he does maybe in line with regs over there but not here and vice versa. Sounds very interesting though

 

[Mr Wilson]

Good luck and should be interesting to see how it progresses. Due to different rules and regs it may be wise to enlist someone on a translation basis. I know the guys on here won't mind giving input but it would be difficult and wrong of us to tread on your fitters toes. Something he does maybe in line with regs over there but not here and vice versa. Sounds very interesting though

cheers riley... coming from australia ( :8:to the monarchy )where ya cant fart unless it complys with Aussie BSC codes. here in germany its quite the opposite you can do all electrical bar mains all internal plumbing can even do structural with out town approvals. i believe folks around these parts ( east germany close to poland border )even do gas themselves. the only codes with new instals that i can find are eco sustainable rulz which is more about economic stimulus than saving the planet so you cant use older boilers past like 5 years or something. but other than that its almost free game. And my fitter is on board with me doing most of the work myself and be sure ill be working up all final plans with him and my wife whos german.

couple more photos with furniture..of course floor plans do not represent actual fittings and fixtures... but wall thicknesses and room sizes are actual

 

[Mr Wilson]

OK ... so almost ready to start my first chase in the wall and install first rad as im almost finnished next room.

so my question is in regards to pipe locations as it seems to vary from country to country.

is it true that in UK you always plump to the bottom of rads with TRV on the Flow in side as in germany they always run pipes to tops pf radiators and thus TRVs horizontally. While working away i was thinking about these 2 options and thought id get some thoughts.
i came up with some logical conclusions for one or the other.

if plumbed low would you get a build up of deposits ( sluge) but heat my rise up threw the radiator and if air builds up in rad it would be easy to purge.

if plumbed low you dont have to bend down to adjust the TRV and crawling babys cant touch. and perhaps if dropping down from a higher floor it saves a little bit of pipe not having to go all the way to the floor. i cant think of any other reasons why have flows in the top of rad mabye you would have to loose less water when draining down and radiators in the system would stay almost full. a negative would be no bleed valve to remove air in rad.

actually wouldn't it be best to have flow in/out at opposite so that the how water is traveling the furthest distance diagonally threw the rad.

im sure these questions have all been asked hundreds of times but hea had limited time today to troll posts

 

[stevetheplumber]

most efficent way to pipe a rad is top and bottom opposite ends usually flow in the top with the trv can look nice if pipework comes out of wall direct into valve

 

[Mr Wilson]

most efficent way to pipe a rad is top and bottom opposite ends usually flow in the top with the trv can look nice if pipework comes out of wall direct into valve

so diagonally top to bottom. would this create a dead spot bottom under the flow in and if you went from bottom to bottom at a slow flow rate say 11C variance as i read somewhere on a balancing thread wouldn't this allow the hot water to rise up threw the rad and create an even temp.

 

[Mr Wilson]

So came across another question while looking into my piping layout and planning on running a double pipe system which id assume is standard nowadays. ill use attached image as an example.

actually before ill ask my question can you fellas give any feed back on my proposed piping layout ... red hot blue cold and theres a darker red for DHW. ive got a few chimneys that are unused so running plumbing up those threw the floors ... my main concerns are pump pressures over such a large area and my thought was to split the line into 2 into the left side of the house and the right. that would put 8 rads on the left side and 7 on the right rads on top floor will also be separate and will be much bigger rads due to the near 7 meter ceiling heights

extra lines not on layout attached
not sure if mentioned but boiler is on top floor in the small boiler room thats not build yet.

cheers

 

[stevetheplumber]

so diagonally top to bottom. would this create a dead spot bottom under the flow in and if you went from bottom to bottom at a slow flow rate say 11C variance as i read somewhere on a balancing thread wouldn't this allow the hot water to rise up threw the rad and create an even temp.

obviously you know much more than me

 

[tolly]

20mm Pex sounds too small to me. Consider using 25mm for the main run, or zone off each floor running 20mm for each floor back to boiler.

You would have to work out your index circuit taking into account head resistance of boiler Hex aswell to see if 20mm would be sufficent to do the whole house.

 

[oz-plumber]

Just install the panels that have both connections at the bottom ( 80mm centres ).
The flow is piped to the top within the radiator and a TMV installed at the top of the radiator.
They cost a bit more but you will save on the chasing - 1 chase instead of 2.

 

[Mr Wilson]

obviously you know much more than me

sorry you misunderstand my post i was confirming you were saying the connection diagonally as i was confused ... you said "top and bottom opposite ends" not top TO bottom.

and bring up a question i saw posted on another thread about dead spots being detected with an IR camera with this piping method i hadnt seen the IR photos myself so was just bring it up as a matter of discussion not questioning your experience for if i already had all the answers id wouldn't have posted the question in the first place and i appreciate your feedback.

 

[Mr Wilson]

20mm Pex sounds too small to me. Consider using 25mm for the main run, or zone off each floor running 20mm for each floor back to boiler.

You would have to work out your index circuit taking into account head resistance of boiler Hex aswell to see if 20mm would be sufficent to do the whole house.

25mm eh .. theres a spanner ... all the local hardwares around me dont sell anything bigger than 20 mm ... might have to look online.

Just install the panels that have both connections at the bottom ( 80mm centres ).
The flow is piped to the top within the radiator and a TMV installed at the top of the radiator.
They cost a bit more but you will save on the chasing - 1 chase instead of 2.

cheers oz-plumber ( are you from aus or just like the place)for bottom floor of the house im using older rads that we were given to us from some family members... they were clean with little rust and saved us a chunk of cash the others have plumbing both top and bottom so were stuck with direction of rads. sounds like a good idea for rads though... i was thinking that wouldnt it be best to T the flow into both bottom and top and the same with the flow out thus insuring complete saturation of radiator with hot water. although since ive never seen this done i guess its unnecessary.

 

[Mr Wilson]

well finally put in my first rad and it was pretty straight forward ... i went with stevetheplumbers advice to have the flow in the top and flow out the bottom. and as the wife wanted the TRV on top well i attached it to flow in but i guess thats pretty standard. ive also decided to zone the house into 2 zones 8/7 rads and a 3rd zone for the top floor but that a long way off...
ive also ran the chasing at flow in height thus minimizing the length of piping to each rad. this also helped with less chasing as i have to remove the internal windowsills which are a crappy fake plastic marble stuff and its gotta go. Theres also 100mm foam stuffed gaps under each one. the benefit of this is that is a great cavity to run pipe thus less destruction work for me.

also the rads ive received for free are a type that runs the plumbing from the bottom and has internal pipe to the top like oz-plumbing recommended. these rads will be installed on the lower floor so ill chase these along the bottom.

decided to use pex crimp fittings to 15mm thread and than 15mm thread to 15mm solder ... sadly i couldnt find pex crimp to 15mm soldered elbows that was cheaper than this and that was local. so having 15mm copper straight out of walls into rads nice and neat.



i do have pictures of the room but have to pull off a phone. will have to wait :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Mr Wilson]

small update ... got photos of phone

room when we moved in

had to gut the whole room raise roof resheet and render all walls even pull up old floor boards as they were warped and some rotten as it was not in best shape. who whould have thought id find dirt used for insulation between floors.mg_smile: .... dirt???


so connected all plumbing for pressure testing (photos in reverse )



so i pressure tested by jimmy rigging up my compressor with some random fittings i had lying around i can control the amount of pressure with ease... i checked the mains pressure and its on 360-400 kpa or 3.6-4bar
going of this i pressure tested up to 500kpa / 5bar left it over night and held pressure ... oh and used a visual test with soapy water over all connections. all good :wink5:

 

[ShaunCorbs]

looks good and old school using dirt as insu

how are you finding using the mlcp?

and what have you done

16mm to a main manifold, or you doing 25-32mm mains runs?

 

[Mr Wilson]

cont... the uploader started to freeze so thought id post before id have to re type ...
quick question would 5 bar be sufficient to pressure test or should i go higher?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

cont... the uploader started to freeze so thought id post before id have to re type ...
quick question would 5 bar be sufficient to pressure test or should i go higher?
View attachment 25404View attachment 25405

yes it would be fine

normally 1.5 times working pressure

so example

take your working pressure at 3 bar

3 + 1.5 = 4.5 so test upto 4.5 bar,

but sometimes your supplier of tube will give you an instruction to test like must test to 12 bar

 

[Mr Wilson]

looks good and old school using dirt as insu

how are you finding using the mlcp?

and what have you done

16mm to a main manifold, or you doing 25-32mm mains runs?

mate the main runs 20mm pex to the manifold although from the mainfold to this rad which is about a 15m distance its also the furthest rad on this zone. im kinda just hoping pressures will be sufficient ... it is also a bedroom so will only be about 18C. if i remember correctly in australia code on distances is like any run over 3m needs to be 20mm before you drop down to like 15mm its been a couple of years since i read code on this stuff. from memory 15mm- 20mm copper is standard size in oz

and loving the pex and crimp fittings ... but coppers way more fun to play with ... actually im gonna make a bathroom towl rack out of copper just for kicks.

 

[Mr Wilson]

3 + 1.5 = 4.5 so test upto 4.5 bar,

cheers mate ... 12 bar would be a little scary using air ... would be like making a high powered potato gun but inside the house ...:angelsad2:

 

[ShaunCorbs]

cheers mate ... 12 bar would be a little scary using air ... would be like making a high powered potato gun but inside the house ...:angelsad2:

on water in the uk you can go above 0.5bar with air unless you follow a very long list

 

[Mr Wilson]

random question regarding filling of pipework in wall.

looking at this image

should i just use a render to fill in and around connector ( in germany they use a type of clay. its not as strong as cement but harder than plaster) or should i use some expander foam around connectors as if i needed to go back into connector to say fix a leak removing the foam would be way easier than render.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

you should be fine if you leak tested it and i would use patching plaster/ what you use in Germany

if your unsure you could always wait until you finished the system and then fill in if you could ?

 

[Mr Wilson]

you should be fine if you leak tested it and i would use patching plaster/ what you use in Germany

if your unsure you could always wait until you finished the system and then fill in if you could ?

cheers shaun ... ill render it up than... wont be using the system till next winter or have the full build ready for water for at least another 6 months so im just gonna have to trust the pressure test.

 

[Howsie]

Out of interest, why have you chosen radiators over UFH?

 

[Mr Wilson]

Out of interest, why have you chosen radiators over UFH?

hea howsie...

i did look into UFH but with a house this size and age to do UFH could be a lot more work, cost a lot more than rads and uncover a lot more unseen issues.
id have to pull up floors (this room is the only floor that needed to be replaced) lay screeds and the extra weight of the screeds may effect the old joists.
i think there may be complications with all the extra pumps and zoning may create a headache for me and im far more confident with running rads myself than full house UFH. but i think it comes down to time i like UFH i think for its thermal benefits and it certainly adds value to the property but the extra time and cost to lay it makes it not so attractive a direction for me.
Im still in talks with the wife if we do UFH in both bathrooms but the problem come up with the screed weight and the lift height transition between hallways and bathrooms.

will have to see im nearly finished the 2nd bedroom and next will be main bathroom

 

[Howsie]

hea howsie...

i did look into UFH but with a house this size and age to do UFH could be a lot more work, cost a lot more than rads and uncover a lot more unseen issues.
id have to pull up floors (this room is the only floor that needed to be replaced) lay screeds and the extra weight of the screeds may effect the old joists.
i think there may be complications with all the extra pumps and zoning may create a headache for me and im far more confident with running rads myself than full house UFH. but i think it comes down to time i like UFH i think for its thermal benefits and it certainly adds value to the property but the extra time and cost to lay it makes it not so attractive a direction for me.
Im still in talks with the wife if we do UFH in both bathrooms but the problem come up with the screed weight and the lift height transition between hallways and bathrooms.

will have to see im nearly finished the 2nd bedroom and next will be main bathroom

I'd have gone for UFH. Cheaper to run in the long run, a much more comfortable and very easy to control and feed via multiple heat sources; Heat pump, boiler etc.

Hey ho.

 

[Mr Wilson]

I'd have gone for UFH. Cheaper to run in the long run, a much more comfortable and very easy to control and feed via multiple heat sources; Heat pump, boiler etc.

Hey ho.

howsie do you have an older place or did ya build new? i would prefer UFH i think its the best option if possible.
i think if we had a more modern type house ie concrete slab floors and not dirt clay and grass reeds , id look into it more seriously but this is a 200 year old building with about 300sqm of floor ... to put in UFH into this place becomes a pretty big job. i did also look into solar panels and IR ( infared panels ) for its thermal heating benefits much the same as UFH. but solar technology isnt quite developed enough to offset the setup cost.

 

[Howsie]

howsie do you have an older place or did ya build new? i would prefer UFH i think its the best option if possible.
i think if we had a more modern type house ie concrete slab floors and not dirt clay and grass reeds , id look into it more seriously but this is a 200 year old building with about 300sqm of floor ... to put in UFH into this place becomes a pretty big job. i did also look into solar panels and IR ( infared panels ) for its thermal heating benefits much the same as UFH. but solar technology isnt quite developed enough to offset the setup cost.

I and the company I own have done them all. UFH would have been my choice based on what I've read. Large floor surfaces plead for UFH as it gives a lovely even warmth.

I'd have a word with the plumber who designed it for you to ask why he preferred rads. What's done is done.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I and the company I own have done them all. UFH would have been my choice based on what I've read. Large floor surfaces plead for UFH as it gives a lovely even warmth.

I'd have a word with the plumber who designed it for you to ask why he preferred rads. What's done is done.

He's designed and installed it him self

 

[Howsie]

Have you done heat loss calculations for the property?

 

[Mr Wilson]

Have you done heat loss calculations for the property?

yup used a few calculators that i found here on the forum ... and im not fully designing it myself as i used the infomation i got from my plumber who will install and connect the boiler and gas. at this stage all im doing myself is chase walls install rads and run mains to and from boiler. id probably take a wack at the boiler if i was living in india or china somewhere but being in germany with regulators ect and being that it needs gas connection im gonna have the pros do that.

 

[Howsie]

Good for you!

Looking at your diagrams, pictures and description of the building fabric those rads look on the small side.

 

[Mr Wilson]

cheers mate ... ya that would be a little unfortunate if the rads are undersized. in saying that the rad that we just installed in the picture are the smallest of then rads we had planed for bedrooms. i dont know too much about heating houses myself coming from australia in which were trying to achieve the opposite staying cool thus relying of info from others ie our plumber whom seems to say that bedrooms stay around 18C and therefore require smaller rads as oppose to living spaces which require much larger ones. i believe the biggest we have are about 2 meters long.

Sorry about the lack of updated plans .. but rads on plans are not to scale just rectangles to show location and for general zoning planing also not updated. also plans do not show the wood stoves that are on every floor ... this winter we havent had any heating other than the wood heaters and other than the daily chore of chopping wood we stayed walm.
but thanks for the thoughts i guess well see and have to make adjustments if things arent sufficient.

 

[Mr Wilson]

just did a few more heat loss calculations and it seems depending on the calculator i require 2476BTUs or 725w and that was based on an external wall thickness of 250mm ( thickest solid wall option available) our walls are 600mm... this calculator has alot of input info

the 2nd calculator had only a few variables and gave me 5000Bts or 1700w

i just looked at the rating of the smaller rad in picture and at 30% it produces 700w at 50% 1500w and max 2400w

so i guess it could be a little on the low side and if thats the case ill have to enlarge it and again cheers for bringing that to my attention ill certainly be looking out for that next winter.

 

[Howsie]

Here is your answer: CIBSE - Domestic Heating - Design Guide 2015 (Domestic Building Services Panel)