building regulations

[june]

Hi,

I am a flat owner and am trying to make head and tail of the building regulations in relation to central heating but am struggling badly. I would really appreciate any help.

Our building is heated by communal central heating which was installed in 1984. There is no thermostat or other control on the amount of gas burned and my flat has no thermostatic controls on radiators. All flat owners pay a share of the gas bill and I have proposed that the Landlord fits some sort of control to keep bills down but he will not even though the cost of doing so would be shared by the flat owners.

Is there any way I can put pressure on him to reduce bills? My own investigation suggests that the regulations relating to conservation of fuel and power may help but that this does not apply to 'old systems' unless there have been significant alterations. There have been a few alterations but I don't know whether they were enough to trigger any action or whether the regulations were in force at the time. The following are the changes that have occurred:

1. flat owners used to be allowed access to the boiler and would vary the timer depending on conditions. Some time (within a year I'd guess) after November 2005 access to the timer was denied and heating was provided for about 8 hours per day from October to the end of April.
2. Some time between November 2005 and October 2006 the landlord removed the communal radiators from a flat he owned.
3. Shortly after September 2007 another flat, with the permission of the Landlord, removed the communal radiators from their flat.
4. In October 2009 the old Glowworm 82/100B was replaced with a Glowworm Flexicom 24HX

I think if 2 & 3 happened now it would mean that the Landlord had to improve efficiency but were the regulations in force at the time?

Any help appreciated.

 

[Killy Bing]

first things first is how much is the gas bill? anf how what period does it cover?

Personally i doubt you could force him to do anything however other more experianced engineers might have a better idea.

 

[Reg Man]

Building Regulations Part L1B came into force 2000 and was amended in 2010.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

You are flat owner and leaseholder? The "landlord" is the freeholder?
If Yes Yes I think you need to look carefully at terms of your lease.

 

[happyflyer]

This is a difficult one, I don't think any BR regrading energy could forced the Landlord to do anything, there are a few things you need to get right if you are paying a share of the bill, which is totally unfair.

1) Do you all see the actual bill or has the LL done the split
2) Are all the flats the same size
3) Do you all have the same hours of occupancy ( out to work)
4) Did you all sign up to this bird brain arrangement
5) Work out the area of the flat and give us the gas charges for a year


There is little the LL will want to do if you are the ones that will save the money, approach him all of you and ask him if you could get in an expert and make some recommendations on how you can go forward on this.

 

[june]

Many thanks for all the replies.

Building Regulations Part L1B came into force 2000 and was amended in 2010.

I've found some Government published information on the Building Regs 2000 Part L1B (Because I'm a new member I can't link to the document) and think that replacing the boiler in 2009 could well have put an obligation on the freeholder to make the system more efficient. Section 2.3d states:

Boiler and hot water storage controls. So that replacement boilers (other than solid
fuel boilers) and hot water vessels can achieve
reasonable seasonal efficiency, the work may
also need to include replacement of the time
switch or programmer, room thermostat, and
hot water vessel thermostat, and provision of a
boiler interlock and fully pumped circulation.
Section 4 of GPG 302 34 gives more advice on
how this can be done.

Reg Man, do you agree? The use of the word "may" suggests it is not necessary in all circumstances. Who decides on these things in the case of dispute?

 

[Reg Man]

I think it is up to the installation people to offer best efficiency advice, whether the property owner takes up on this best advice is down to them, but I sympathise with your current arrangement being a communal heating system. It may be best to approach the Local authority building control office and ask them what their take is on responsibilities.

 

[june]

It may be best to approach the Local authority building control office and ask them what their take is on responsibilities.

Thanks, I will do.

 

[Scott_D]

Do the flats without communal heating still share the gas bill? How do they heat their flat?

 

[lame plumber]

building regs cant do anything, as the systems over a year old and that normally puts paid to them enforcing anything. Looks from the state of things that the leaseholders have all signed upto and agreed to pay as is, so not a lot to be done, unless they can getv together and buy their frehold from the landlord and form a managent company which is possible under certain conditions, cab can advice on that for free.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Many thanks for all the replies.



I've found some Government published information on the Building Regs 2000 Part L1B (Because I'm a new member I can't link to the document) and think that replacing the boiler in 2009 could well have put an obligation on the freeholder to make the system more efficient.

Updated guidance on complying with BR comes out frequently so not easy to answer.
But as far as I can recall it became compulsory to upgrade controls for efficiency October 2010 with new BR.
Previously it was optional.

As I said before.
First place to look is your contract of agreement for communal heating - if you are a leaseholder it will be with in your lease.

 

[Reg Man]

Still see new boilers installed with no room thermostat and interlock, crazy for what they cost to get a more efficient system. Saw one last week. All the installer did was turn the heating boiler stat down to 40 degree C and left the boiler cycling along. Shame on you fitter from Seascale ***bria. Even the benchmark was ticked that it had an interlock, explained to customer that it can't have an interlock without a stat.

 

[chris watkins]

Planning Portal - Associated documents
If you go to the above link you can then find the compliance guides kick & down load you can also find the old back dated Part L's & the dates.
It may not provide answers but it will be the correct info.

 

[june]

Thanks for all the replies.

Out of interest, is it worthwhile fitting thermostatic valves without doing anything else? I'd pay for them to be fitted myself it made any difference.

The system is a Glowworm Flexicom 24HX Boiler and radiators with no thermostatic valves on them. There's no thermostat. It has a timer which is set for 2.5 hours in the morning and 5 hours in the evening. Heating is on between October 1st and April 30th each year.

I've been told by my plumber that it is actually bad for the boiler if all radiators are turned off so I'm thinking this might be the case too if the boiler doesn't detect that radiators are turned off (by the thermostatic valves) somehow. Doesn't there have to be a special type of boiler used or some sort of optimising device fitted when thermostatic valves are used?

 

[dancinplumba]

If you have no access to boiler or timer it would be pointless fitting trvs

 

[SimonG]

It's all well and good having these so called energy efficiency regs, but if the cust won't pay for them, what you going to do. Turn it down and let somebody else take the work?

 

[june]

If you have no access to boiler or timer it would be pointless fitting trvs

Thanks.

What if I could talk the freeholder into doing something, what would that actually be in order to make thermostatic valves worthwhile? is it expensive?

 

[SimonG]

Basically you would want each flat to be a zone, with a motorised valve and room stat. Probably expensive, difficult to say without seeing, and something I can't see your landlord instigating.

 

[SimonG]

If you fitted trv's off your own back, then you would have better temp control in your flat and would possibly reduce the amount of gas used to heat your flat, but you would probably still have to pay the same share of the gas bill, so no point.

 

[june]

If you fitted trv's off your own back, then you would have better temp control in your flat and would possibly reduce the amount of gas used to heat your flat, but you would probably still have to pay the same share of the gas bill, so no point.

It's whether we would use less gas that interests me. Flat owners may be happy to pay for the valves to be fitted but would probably not want to replace the boiler. Do all boilers check the temperature of the returning water and use less gas or is it just optimising boilers? How about the Glowworm Flexicom 24HX Boiler?

 

[june]

I also found this device for attaching to a boiler. Does anybody know anything about these?

 

[dancinplumba]

It's whether we would use less gas that interests me. Flat owners may be happy to pay for the valves to be fitted but would probably not want to replace the boiler. Do all boilers check the temperature of the returning water and use less gas or is it just optimising boilers? How about the Glowworm Flexicom 24HX Boiler?

Condensing boilers do

 

[dancinplumba]

I also found this device for attaching to a boiler. Does anybody know anything about these?

Fit a weather compensator and modulating room stat