USA Unvented cylinder - water pressure

[Tim0212]

Hi, looking for advice about unvented cylinder. I had one installed as part of a horrific modular loft conversion that was recently finished. The water pressure in the bathrooms is poor, probably worse than when just had combi and I cant use two showers/bathrooms at one time which was the point in having it installed. When first installed it seemed good but then there was a leak in the system. Leak was fixed but pressure now poor. The tested cold incoming measures at 22 lpm and 3 bar but when i check this in bathrooms its less than 8lpm. The plumber is refusing to return as loft company arent paying him(think theyre going under) and his only advice is that the incoming supply is the issue. Im not convinced though due to rate during test and i've recently tested outside tap and its 3 times quicker than inside. The new shower in loft occassionally has fluntuating pressure that you can see by eye. Does anyone have any advice?

 

[Riley]

What is the incoming supply? Size wise??

 

[Riley]

Have they upsized all the way to the point of the cylinder??

 

[Scott_D]

Any pics of the cylinder and pipework?

 

[Tim0212]

What is the incoming supply? Size wise??

The incoming supply has never been touched and has old stopcock so think its 15mm. The cold cylinder incoming was taken from the cold pipe under the stairs which is also 15mm (photo attached). From the first floor i believe they are all 22mm pipes up to cylinder which is horizontal in loft eaves.

 

[Tim0212]

Return pipes going back to combi

 

[Riley]

So incoming to stopcock is 15mm?? Not enough

 

[Tim0212]

Any pics of the cylinder and pipework?

Yeah, pretty tight in eaves space but got some photos. Thanks for responding btw

 

[Riley]

Is that a vertical cylinder tipped sideways

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That stopcock is going to reduce the flow

Also the cylinder isn't rated for horizontal install best get the plumbing firm back as install is not to regs also not fit for purpose

 

[Riley]

Wow do you have any commissioning documentation

 

[Tim0212]

No i dont have any commissionjng documentation as plumber is refusing to release anything until loft company pay him!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No i dont have any commissionjng documentation as plumber is refusing to release anything until loft company pay him!

Tell him the insulation isn't to spec and regs and needs to be re done at his own cost

 

[Riley]

I’d play devils advocate and tell him that the install is incorrect and potentially unsafe and that you’ll be going to local building authority as it’s a notifiable install. That is not installed to G3 regs

 

[Tim0212]

When you think things cant get any worse! So the direction of lettering is a give away?

 

[Riley]

And where the pipe work comes out

 

[Riley]

Was that really fitted by a plumber??

 

[ShaunCorbs]

When you think things cant get any worse! So the direction of lettering is a give away?

Also the hot outlet on the side

 

[Riley]

Typing race Shaun??

 

[Tim0212]

As it was a modular loft the loft company placed it in eaves when room was in two parts. Plumber came in and connected to boiler.

 

[Tim0212]

Also the hot outlet on the side

Explain further?

 

[king of pipes]

Seen it all now get em back thats not fitted correctly or report em to gas safe they will force them to put it right or give you your money back so you can employ another engineer to sort it, do you have a compliance certificate ? Kop

 

[Riley]

They clearly weren’t G3 qualified then as it’s a right hash and hadn’t speced the right pipework changes or a horizontal cylinder

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Explain further?

Horizontal cylinders have all the connections on the top so they can be serviced easily and have internal dip tubes so they don't suck cold water

 

[Riley]

The guys clearly not a plumber not to have spotted it

 

[Tim0212]

No i have nothing from them. Apart from vertical cylinder can you explain other issues? I would be surprised if loft company would have used them if not gas safe as all part of contract for sign off and commissioning. Could they get away with it by saying they didnt specify cylinder (the loft company did?)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

No i have nothing from them. Apart from vertical cylinder can you explain other issues? I would be surprised if loft company would have used them if not gas safe as all part of contract for sign off and commissioning. Could they get away with it by saying they didnt specify cylinder (the loft company did?)

They installed it in that manner the buck falls with them

 

[Riley]

Somantics it’s a vertical cylinder fitted horizontally. IF he’s qualified he should know

 

[Tim0212]

Horizontal cylinders have all the connections on the top so they can be serviced easily and have internal dip tubes so they don't suck cold water

Would this be the reason why pressure low. Sorry, no idea about plumbing! Sucking cold water - what does this mean?

 

[Riley]

Based on the pics I’d say not qualified

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Would this be the reason why pressure low. Sorry, no idea about plumbing! Sucking cold water - what does this mean?

Yes and the 15mm service

 

[Riley]

It’s a typical builder install

 

[Riley]

Text the plumber now with what we’ve said then you have a record

 

[Scott_D]

Would it now be impossible to remove the cylinder?

 

[Tim0212]

I seriously cant believe this. Should i highlight anything other than the cylinder direction. He had discussed putting a pump on the cold water(under the stairs)? Is the pressure on outside tap good because all on 15mm pipe? If cylinder pipework was 15mm would it have been better pressure?

 

[Chuck]

Is that a vertical Tempest cylinder that has been turned on its side and mounted horizontally?

If so, WTF???

Time to get a new, G3 qualified, plumber in to survey the installation and quote for fixing any issues.

I hope you haven't paid the loft conversion company yet... :-(

 

[Tim0212]

Would it now be impossible to remove the cylinder?

Was just thinking that. Would have to remove eaves plasterboard wall

 

[Tim0212]

I owe loft company 2k for ongoing issues...looks like thats gone.

 

[Riley]

He’s a cowboy. Should’ve done the cold feed right at the start. An accumulator or similar could help solve your problem but it certainly shouldn’t be at your expense. And no. Pressure and flow rate are key don’t drop to 15

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I owe loft company 2k for ongoing issues...looks like thats gone.

At a minimum

 

[Scott_D]

Was just thinking that. Would have to remove eaves plasterboard wall

You are going to need to get an Independant report done I think
How much money are you withholding?
Will it cover major work?

 

[Riley]

Get in quick if they are going under as you say, you need to be a party of interest

 

[Riley]

what’s the rest of the install like dare I ask

 

[Tim0212]

Landmark lofts are the loft firm and landmark heating managed the cylinder installation. I dont think landmark heating are in trouble but think landmark lofts are. So incoming goes straight through house and under kitchen tiles. This and feed to cylinder(once correct) would all need to be replaced to get a good flow? The loft firms "engineer" that scoped the job and did pressure and flow tests never mentioned anything about incoming.

 

[Tim0212]

what’s the rest of the install like dare I ask

Are there other photos that would help with this?

 

[Riley]

Well he clearly wasn’t qualified. He should as a minimum have tested static and dynamic pressure as well as lpm did he do any tests or just turn on a tap and say ooh that’s good

 

[Riley]

Are there other photos that would help with this?

Well if they’ve installed a potential bomb like that one would be remiss not to ask about the rest of it

 

[Tim0212]

Im not sure of tests. He just said 22lpm and 3bar

 

[Riley]

So he’s plucked figures out of thin air?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Easy way to test from the kitchen sink fill a 1l bottle and time it