OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[trf0412]

.. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

Well, if the shower tray is going to be redone, someone's going to have to do it. I certainly don't want to get the previous plumber to do it (and in any case, that ship has sailed now, as I've sacked him), and the new plumber would understandably claim zero liability if the tray cracks on removal, so I don't see what I have to lose by trying to carefully remove it myself?

And if setting it down on a sand & cement base is more complicated that I currently think it should be, by all means I can pay the new plumber to do it. But if I did it, I would follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding sand to cement ratio etc. and would probably do a much better job than our cowboy plumber did with his tube of silicone. I would also use the provided template to cut out the hole for the waste, but would leave connecting it all up to a qualified plumber.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

 

[gmartine]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

 

[oz-plumber]

Here we go again... If that were the case, why wouldn't I have just come on here and said I'm doing some DIY plumbing? It's not a crime is it? I don't need to hide behind an elaborate story where I'm pretending to be a plumber!

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

 

[Stigster]

Oh boy get him off the job asap, my 8yr old has better joinery skills. That is some doing...managing to cut every feed pipe such that every braided hose has to be kinked to fit. Ever have to un-kink your garden hose? Well the result is the same if left in place ie restricted or no flow.

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

 

[trf0412]

If you had come on here and stated you have done some DIY plumbing and posted those pics, you would have got a reply from me ..stating...

Top job Pal.

You've got the talent and expertise to become qualified

You should start doing weekenders for friend, family and neighbour's.
In fact, you should take the pics down to the Plumbing Registration Board, show them what you've done, explain to them that you managed that without any previous experience in the Trade and they will probably give you a Licence.

Once again, beautiful work.
Send some pics in of the completed project and let us know how everythings going in 6 months time

Ah, good job I pretended I was a plumber then! Just kidding!

I don't think that hideous shower valve installation is in OP's house or relevant to this thread. That just appeared in the thread for some reason, maybe it was supposed to go in the Hall of Shame? As far as I can tell we are only dealing with the guy's waste pipes and shower tray.

Yes, that's correct. The photo being referred to isn't directly relevant to this thread. The main issues in our bathroom right now are the messed up waste pipes & incorrectly laid shower tray.

Today I spoke with the new plumber and specifically asked how they would go about laying a stone resin tray. I was pleased when he said the first thing they would do is read the instructions (!), but then he said more often than not they bed it down on a layer of tile adhesive. So, I was wondering how this method compares to sand & cement? Of course, in order to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty it has to be sand & cement in our case, but I have read about this going crumbly and therefore wondered if tile adhesive is actually seen as a better alternative by some?

 

[FG28]

Ah, good job I pretended I was a plumber then! Just kidding!



Yes, that's correct. The photo being referred to isn't directly relevant to this thread. The main issues in our bathroom right now are the messed up waste pipes & incorrectly laid shower tray.

Today I spoke with the new plumber and specifically asked how they would go about laying a stone resin tray. I was pleased when he said the first thing they would do is read the instructions (!), but then he said more often than not they bed it down on a layer of tile adhesive. So, I was wondering how this method compares to sand & cement? Of course, in order to be covered by the manufacturer's warranty it has to be sand & cement in our case, but I have read about this going crumbly and therefore wondered if tile adhesive is actually seen as a better alternative by some?

Great well sounds like they know what there doing
Tile adhesive IMO is better than sand cement and will be fine ,.
You can manufacturer and they will say its fine , im fairly certain of that ,
Yea sorry i put that pic up really to show the push fit monkeys about that still cant even do that
I think once your trays in properly you should be fine
So long as your tiler doesnt start doing things like my next pic

 

[FG28]

 

[trf0412]

Hahaha! Wow, that is something! I can't even get my head around how someone could do such a horrendous job....

 

[FG28]

Hahaha! Wow, that is something! I can't even get my head around how someone could do such a horrendous job..

Its amazing isnt it
How the hell do you achieve that , look at the slithers in the corner ,.
Im pretty sure its harder to do what they have done than do it properly in the first instance

 

[Ric2013]

The customer wouldn't let me damage the towel rail and the screws holding it in place were seized solid, so I tiled round it. They also more-or-less threatened not to pay if I wasn't done by 5. So I did what I could...

 

[trf0412]

And what sort of muppet wouldn't even attempt to align the tils on the two adjacent walls?? Or remove the towel rail?? Unbelievable.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep that's good flexible tile adhesive, what did he say about the other stuff ?

 

[gmartine]

@FG28

The hall of shame is the place for pics of dodgy work mate

 

[trf0412]

Yep that's good flexible tile adhesive, what did he say about the other stuff ?

He's going to take a look at the wastes on Mon and figure out how we can redo them, but was in total agreement about uphill run becoming a trap for toothpaste, oils, hair etc. He was also a bit shocked to hear about how the waste had been run through the joists, and has suggested adding some more noggins to spread the load. However, he said that we might be ok, partly because building regs have to be overly cautious and also because our house was built in the 1960s and probably a lot less flimsy than some new builds.

 

[trf0412]

OK, quick update. I popped down to Screwfix this morning and bought a pry bar and have spent the last couple of hours nervously cutting away small sections of the OSB around the shower tray with a multi-tool to allow me to get the pry bar under it. I also had to chip away the plaster where it came right down to the tray. Then I went round the tray and gently applied pressure at various points. It was quite nerve-wracking but the good news is I managed to get the tray up in one piece! (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I explained in an earlier post why I decided to do this myself rather than leave it to the new plumber).

The pry bar caused the edge of the tray to chip in a few places, but hopefully the tiles will hide these.

As you can see from the attached photos, our cowboy "plumber" used a few blobs of silicone, so the tray wasn't bedded down on anything! He also cut out a massive hole for the waste, so the tray was completely unsupported over that area.

I'm now planning to take up that section of flooring and put down a new piece of marine ply or OSB, clean all the silicone off the tray and let the new plumbers install it properly.

Any tips for getting the silicone off the base of the tray? Presumably it doesn't matter if there is some residue on the tray, as the sand & cement (or tile adhesive) will level things out?

 

[FG28]

OK, quick update. I popped down to Screwfix this morning and bought a pry bar and have spent the last couple of hours nervously cutting away small sections of the OSB around the shower tray with a multi-tool to allow me to get the pry bar under it. I also had to chip away the plaster where it came right down to the tray. Then I went round the tray and gently applied pressure at various points. It was quite nerve-wracking but the good news is I managed to get the tray up in one piece! (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I explained in an earlier post why I decided to do this myself rather than leave it to the new plumber).

The pry bar caused the edge of the tray to chip in a few places, but hopefully the tiles will hide these.

As you can see from the attached photos, our cowboy "plumber" used a few blobs of silicone, so the tray wasn't bedded down on anything! He also cut out a massive hole for the waste, so the tray was completely unsupported over that area.

I'm now planning to take up that section of flooring and put down a new piece of marine ply or OSB, clean all the silicone off the tray and let the new plumbers install it properly.

Any tips for getting the silicone off the base of the tray? Presumably it doesn't matter if there is some residue on the tray, as the sand & cement (or tile adhesive) will level things out?

View attachment 30923

View attachment 30924

View attachment 30925

View attachment 30926

Great job mate
What a clown , didnt even figure of six the silicone ,
The tiles and silicone finishing seal will cover them chips around the tray ,
All in all id say your good to go , bit of ply and a nice neatish hole for the waste ,
Id def spend a tenner on some ct1 or sticks like , for running round the underside of the waste to tray seal , it also helps it stop moving (depending on the waste finish) if people stand on the waste when showering , if you know what i mean ,.
Well worth doing , you will sleep easy knowing its all done correctly ,

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Multi tool and an old blade to get the spots off

How did it lift once you got underneath it ? Doesn't look like it stuck

 

[trf0412]

How did it lift once you got underneath it ? Doesn't look like it stuck

I sort of gently prised it up a few millimetres at a few points around the tray, then gradually built up the courage to apply a little more pressure. Eventually, on one attempt, I heard the sound of some of the silicone slowly tearing away from the flooring, so I went round the tray trying to repeat this at various points.

I also went along the two straight edges with a multitool to cut through the bead of silicone holding it to the wall as well as I could.

As the tray came up a few more millimetres I placed some magazines below the tray at several points to hold it up. This meant I could get the pry bar a little further under the tray to stop it slipping and chipping the edge of the tray.

When I was able to lift the tray a couple of centimetres, it started to hit the plaster that was overhanging the straight edges of the tray, so I used the pry bar on its side between the wall and the side of the tray to gently pull it away from the wall. This helped break the silicone holding the tray to the wall, and probably also helped with the few remaining blobs on the floor which were still holding on tight.

 

[Ric2013]

In fairness, I've seen leg kits that probably provide less support than that silicone would.

 

[trf0412]

So, the boss of the new plumbing firm I've gone with came round this morning to take a look at things. (Tiling has now been postponed to give them time to clear up the mess created by the first plumber). He wasn't happy about sink/bath/basin all going into one waste and has recommended running 3 new wastes into the soil pipe. These will have to dropped down to just below the ceiling in the lounge and be boxed in, as drilling even more holes through joists is definitely not an option.

He has also recommended cutting out the shower pipes to allow for copper elbows to come out of the wall, as currently the bit of copper coming out of the wall goes straight into a plastic pipe and the two pipes aren't even level!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Agree with him but you can combine the shower and basin in 11/2 as it's very unlikely your going to be running the basin taps when someone's having a shower even then it would be fine

 

[trf0412]

Agree with him but you can combine the shower and basin in 11/2 as it's very unlikely your going to be running the basin taps when someone's having a shower even then it would be fine

On that basis, couldn't the bath waste also be combined with the shower and basin wastes, since it's extremely unlikely that we'd be emptying the bath whilst having a shower? Anyway, I got the impression the primary reason for separate wastes is to avoid water in one waste getting sucked out by another appliance's draining.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

On that basis, couldn't the bath waste also be combined with the shower and basin wastes, since it's extremely unlikely that we'd be emptying the bath whilst having a shower? Anyway, I got the impression the primary reason for separate wastes is to avoid water in one waste getting sucked out by another appliance's draining.

You would have to up the waste to 2" pipe but you could and stick an anti vac trap on the basin

 

[trf0412]

Ah, I see, ok... so maybe just as easy to run 2 separate wastes? The one from the bath can go straight to the soil pipe. The shower and basin wastes will now have to drop below the joists and run tight along the lounge ceiling and be boxed in.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ah, I see, ok... so maybe just as easy to run 2 separate wastes? The one from the bath can go straight to the soil pipe. The shower and basin wastes will now have to drop below the joists and run tight along the lounge ceiling and be boxed in.

Yea or run the lot in 2" and box it in and strengthen the joists

 

[trf0412]

So, new plumbing firm is coming tomorrow to re-do all the waste pipes and fix other issues. They will leave me to fit the new flooring over the weekend (not quite sure why, but I'm more than happy to do it and can at least be sure of what's happening if I do it, esp. now I've discovered the muppet that was our previous "plumber" screwed down the 18mm OSB with about 25mm screws!!).

As a result of all this, I now get to choose what flooring to put down. I was thinking I would obviously get marine ply, but I've now seen the huge cost difference and I'm wondering if standard ply is almost as good? And where would OSB3 sit in the rankings between chipboard / marine ply / non-marine ply / OSB 3?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

What's going on top of it ?

 

[trf0412]

What's going on top of it ?

Porcelain tiles (if you are asking about the floor covering, rather than bathroom furniture/sanitary wear). I think these will be on top of a Ditra mat.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Porcelain tiles (if you are asking about the floor covering, rather than bathroom furniture/sanitary wear). I think these will be on top of a Ditra mat.

I would use 18mm marine ply glued and screwed down (don't hit any pipes wires or wastes) as you don't want problems later on

You can go belts and braces by using some 6mm ply to stager perpendicular to the 18mm m ply joins/ joints

 

[trf0412]

Ok... seems to be about £100 a sheet, as opposed to £20 a sheet for OSB or around £35 for non-marine ply, though! Anywhere I can get it cheaper?

Apart from ability to maintain its strength if it gets wet, are there any other advantages to marine ply over same thickness standard ply?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can get it cheaper try a builders merchant/ dewson or travis etc around 45 a sheet 8x4

And no just water resistant

 

[trf0412]

If I can get it at £45 a sheet, I'll happily go with marine ply. But at £100 I may be tempted to go with standard ply if it's equivalent in strength.

Even standard ply would be a better choice than OSB though, right? Or are they much of a muchness?

 

[trf0412]

New plumbers are also going to cut out a small section of the hot & cold shower feeds to allow them to put in copper elbows and to straighten the pipes. Currently they aren't even level, and the copper currently comes straight out of a connector which goes directly onto a plastic pipe. The guy who came to look at the job said the copper pipes would be clipped in the wall to make sure they don't move.

But, my question is, what can the pipes be clipped to, given that they are in one of those awful 1960s corrugated cardboard style partition walls?

 

[Best]

Good quality plywood would highly likely be good enough if everything else done correctly, if you want to do a decent job at not the highest cost. Just make sure the plywood is not softwood centred. You need good quality top grade all hardwood plywood.
I think the main difference with marine plywood is it uses waterproof glue.

 

[huddster]

Is this 'new plumber' just you but with a bit more knowledge gained from the forum to correct the work you messed up first time around, if so bravo, a wonderfully told story.

No no I'm just being cynical, good luck with your 'new plumber' I'm sure he will find a way to secure the pipe work and if he does bodge it ill expect he will take a picture for you to upload on here and then someone can tell you, I'm mean the plumber how to do it properly.

 

[Ric2013]

Is this 'new plumber' just you but with a bit more knowledge gained from the forum to correct the work you messed up first time around, if so bravo, a wonderfully told story.

Or the OP simply has become paranoid, having had a bad experience the first time around, hence questions like 'what should the pipes be clipped to'? We'll never know.

 

[trf0412]

Is this 'new plumber' just you but with a bit more knowledge gained from the forum to correct the work you messed up first time around, if so bravo, a wonderfully told story.

No no I'm just being cynical, good luck with your 'new plumber' I'm sure he will find a way to secure the pipe work and if he does bodge it ill expect he will take a picture for you to upload on here and then someone can tell you, I'm mean the plumber how to do it properly.

Yeah, since coming on here a few days ago my plumbing skills have come on in leaps and bounds. Think I'm just about qualified now. Check out what I achieved today!

So, the top half of the cast iron soil pipe has been cut out and replaced with plastic. All the waste pipes have been re-run so that each appliance has its own waste direct to the soil pipe, and amazingly this time around with a fall (3rd time lucky!). The shower pipes now come out of the wall on copper elbows. They have also been set at a lower height which will allow the riser and shower head to not disappear into the loft!! I have absolutely no idea what I (sorry, Plumber No. 1) was thinking there! The hot and cold feeds for the towel radiator, bath, sink and toilet (i.e. everything else!) also had to be tweaked. The pipework going to the shower has also be rerun so that the shower waste doesn't push down on it. All pipes have also been clipped to the joists.

All in all, I think this is a much, much better job and it's now very clear just how terrible the 1st "plumber's" work was.

[For the avoidance of doubt, I'm just playing along with the cynicism (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em), but neither the previous work nor the remedial work were carried out by me.]

 

[trf0412]

I should have mentioned that the shower waste isn't complete yet, hence the waste pipe that suddenly stops. It will be finished after the shower tray has been correctly re-laid on sand & cement.

Or the OP simply has become paranoid, having had a bad experience the first time around, hence questions like 'what should the pipes be clipped to'? We'll never know.

Did I really ask that?! Maybe I did... been a stressful few days.

 

[trf0412]

New plumbers used Hep2O, hence the sudden change in fittings. There are a handful of the original plumber's Speedfit fittings still in place, but I'd say 80% of what he'd done was ripped out and redone.

Also, I got new plumbers to check previous guy had used the inserts that someone on here mentioned and he had at least got that bit right.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

spot on looks lovely

2 points

1: copper shower pipes need gaffa taping so the plaster doesnt touch the bare copper also tape the ends so no rubbish goes in them

2: shower pipes need clipping or foaming in to stop movement when plaster comes etc

 

[trf0412]

spot on looks lovely

2 points

1: copper shower pipes need gaffa taping so the plaster doesnt touch the bare copper also tape the ends so no rubbish goes in them

2: shower pipes need clipping or foaming in to stop movement when plaster comes etc

The previous photo was taken earlier in the day. I've just gone upstairs to take an updated photo. Re. your 2nd point – I believe they put that batten there to temporarily hold the pipes in place as the plaster sets. Re. your 1st point – pipes have been capped off, as mains water is back on, BUT, I don't see any evidence of anything protecting the bare copper from the plaster. And this issue would also apply to the radiator, bath & toilet pipes. How important is this? Is it similar to the issue of having cement corroding copper pipes? I don't think I can face any more alterations – I'm going to need a shower sooner or later

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Don't see the pic yet ?

Fair enough that's great

And for me I would always either tape them if I didn't have much thickness or insulate them

It's unlikely to cause much damage to the copper but there is a chance

And it's been raining cats and dogs round my area so go old school either wait till it rains or find a lake

 

[trf0412]

Don't see the pic yet ?

Forgot to upload it initially, but it's there now.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes it's there to keep the centres at 150mm

 

[Ric2013]

Yes, cement on copper can cause trouble. That said, my gas pipe at home, installed in 1987, runs straight through the mortar on a supprting pillar. And it's gone horrible and green BUT not leaking yet. Hope this reassures you.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes, cement on copper can cause trouble. That said, my gas pipe at home, installed in 1987, runs straight through the mortar on a supprting pillar. And it's gone horrible and green BUT not leaking yet. Hope this reassures you.

Now you've said that I think I smell gas ;D

 

[trf0412]

See the chases that have been filled above the batten? That's how high up the other guy had set the pipes! Still scratching my head in utter bewilderment!

On the advice of a building surveyor, I'm going to remove the short bits of softwood currently reinforcing the joists (where the 1st plumber went crazy drilling holes) and bolt on some longer pieces of 18mm ply on both sides.

Then I'm going to put down new ply wood with screws that are about twice as long as the 1st plummer/muppet used, as well as using glue. (Based on what's been said here I think I'm happy to go with standard ply as opposed to marine ply.) Then the plumbers will be back on Mon to cut holes for the wastes and fit bath and shower tray.

In preparation for Mon, I'm also going to try and get all the silicone off the bath and shower tray. One of the plumbers today told me about silicone remover. Anyone used this? Is it any good and is it safe to use on shower tray and bath?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

See the chases that have been filled above the batten? That's how high up the other guy had set the pipes! Still scratching my head in utter bewilderment!

On the advice of a building surveyor, I'm going to remove the short bits of softwood currently reinforcing the joists (where the 1st plumber went crazy drilling holes) and bolt on some longer pieces of 18mm ply on both sides.

Then I'm going to put down new ply wood with screws that are about twice as long as the 1st plummer/muppet used, as well as using glue. (Based on what's been said here I think I'm happy to go with standard ply as opposed to marine ply.) Then the plumbers will be back on Mon to cut holes for the wastes and fit bath and shower tray.

In preparation for Mon, I'm also going to try and get all the silicone off the bath and shower tray. One of the plumbers today told me about silicone remover. Anyone used this? Is it any good and is it safe to use on shower tray and bath?

Rubbish better off with a Stanley blade and a set of gloves

Also glue and screw the patches in

 

[trf0412]

Yes, cement on copper can cause trouble. That said, my gas pipe at home, installed in 1987, runs straight through the mortar on a supprting pillar. And it's gone horrible and green BUT not leaking yet. Hope this reassures you.

But not all plaster contains cement, right? I think I spotted a purple bag on our front lawn this afternoon, so it was probably Thistle Bonding Coat and as far as I can see cement isn't mentioned on the fact sheet about this product.

 

[Ric2013]

One of the plumbers today told me about silicone remover. Anyone used this?

I use the Screwfix No Nonsense silicone eater. It helps for getting the dregs off after you've taken the bulk of the old sealant out with a knife. I wouldn't bother for what you're using it for.

See the chases that have been filled above the batten? That's how high up the other guy had set the pipes! Still scratching my head in utter bewilderment!

I like showers to be high up, personally, perhaps you changed your mind, I mean your plumber did . Still, easier to not use the entire chase than chase a bit more if the customer decides it needs to be higher, credit where credit is due.