What electric works can plumbers undertake

[midsman]

Hello all

I’m looking for some clarification as to what electric works plumbers / heating engineer can undertake. It seems to be a grey are with part p defined scope etc which I believe has gone? And that part p is just a building Reg and not a qualification. So in light of my confusion some help is wanted.


so what can a plumber / heating engineer do. I mean with no electrical quals or part p.

I don’t just mean that they have the skill to do it but they have the legal right to do it. Aren’t breaking any buildings regs etc

can a gas safe heating engineer wire a new boiler into an existing fused spur even in a kitchen . ?


Can a plumber replace like for like electric shower

can a plumber replace a heating system component such as a zone valve, pump, thermostat - including wiring it into wiring centre

can they fit a new room stat as part of a new boiler

I very much believe in doing things correctly and doing the best I can.

 

[Gasmk1]

I was certified working from fused spur and wiring full system, changing anything on the sysyem can’t remember if this was due to BG electrical training also taking nvm level 3 when we started gasforce

 

[midsman]

I was certified working from fused spur and wiring full system, changing anything on the sysyem can’t remember if this was due to BG electrical training also taking nvm level 3 when we started gasforce

thank you for your reply. What certification do you have currently?

 

[Gasmk1]

City and guilds final and gas intermediate and final utilisation, nvq level 3 in gas accreditation’s in domestic and commercial

 

[midsman]

City and guilds final and gas intermediate and final utilisation, nvq level 3 in gas accreditation’s in domestic and commercial

thank you for that. Appreciated

 

[Aquarius]

I completed my essential electrics and our electrical manager has no problem me changing like for like stuff, adding wireless stats (from the boiler supply), etc.

 

[Murdoch]

If you are changing the fixed wiring then you need to be competent to install, test, certify etc

If you are changing like for like then crack on BUT if in the shower example the manufacturers instructions say the circuit needs RCD protection and there isn't any, you need to get this resolved ............

 

[midsman]

If you are changing the fixed wiring then you need to be competent to install, test, certify etc

If you are changing like for like then crack on BUT if in the shower example the manufacturers instructions say the circuit needs RCD protection and there isn't any, you need to get this resolved .

Thank you very much for this. What is the definition of fixed wiring?

do you mean the wiring up to for example the fused spur or the cabling up to the shower.
Does an appliance such as a shower, a shower pump, a boiler , a central heating control System that are all hard wiring count as fixed wiring?

does it count as changing the fixed wiring or the circuit when you swap like for like
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I completed my essential electrics and our electrical manager has no problem me changing like for like stuff, adding wireless stats (from the boiler supply), etc.

Thank you for your reply. What course did you do for electrics

 

[Aquarius]

Thank you very much for this. What is the definition of fixed wiring?

Thank you for your reply. What course did you do for electrics

To me the definition of fixed wiring, is it’s a fixed part if the circuit, eg socket outlets, lighting. Non fixed is something that can usually be moved by means of flex cable, eg a boiler, zone valves, etc.

My course was called essential electrics, ran by citb, however I’m led to believe this one (citb) is no longer available.

 

[midsman]

To me the definition of fixed wiring, is it’s a fixed part if the circuit, eg socket outlets, lighting. Non fixed is something that can usually be moved by means of flex cable, eg a boiler, zone valves, etc.

My course was called essential electrics, ran by citb, however I’m led to believe this one (citb) is no longer available.

great. Thank you for taking the time to reply. So is a shower fixed or non fixed. ?

 

[Aquarius]

This might be one for @Murdoch or any other person with more knowledge, but I’d say the wiring to the pull cord is fixed, possibly even the wiring to the shower, but if you’re doing a like for like, eg same kw rating but have to move the wire slightly, I’d say it’s ok.

 

[SimonG]

Anything after the fused spur I'm happy to change/wire. S plan, y plan etc. Experience has found not a lot of electricians are actually comfortable when it comes to heating controls.
Showers like for like after a look at the fuse board to confirm rcd. If I'm not happy or unsure then its bring in the electrician time.
Even when I'm doing a bathroom you need yours eyes open for the lighting. Lots of lights in bathrooms dont meet the regs. I simply say to the customer that they need to get them sorted.

 

[Murdoch]

great. Thank you for taking the time to reply. So is a shower fixed or non fixed. ?

A shower is fixed when the supply cable runs in the fabric of the building, same as for any other circuit really.

If something is plugged in its not fixed

Fused spurs can get complicated .........

The other thing to watch out for with showers is higher wattage, cable size etc ..........

 

[midsman]

A shower is fixed when the supply cable runs in the fabric of the building, same as for any other circuit really.

If something is plugged in its not fixed

Fused spurs can get complicated ...

The other thing to watch out for with showers is higher wattage, cable size etc .

Thank you murdoch. So can plumbers replace an electric shower? can they wire into a fused spur?

 

[Murdoch]

Thank you murdoch. So can plumbers replace an electric shower? can they wire into a fused spur?

Using your examples I would say yes - and speaking for myself, I would never change a shower - leaks can cause a lot of damage and I don't think my PL covers such work

 

[gpbeck]

What do the insurers say? Or maybe don’t ask..

 

[midsman]

What do the insurers say? Or maybe don’t ask..

That’s the question lol. This is such a grey area.

 

[WC1]

spurs can get complicated .

Hi Murdoch, any chance you can elaborate a little....
I thought after spur was ok as long as circuit is protected properly.

 

[Murdoch]

Hi Murdoch, any chance you can elaborate a little..
I thought after spur was ok as long as circuit is protected properly.

it depends on where and how the load cable runs. If it’s in the fabric of the building its part of the fixed wiring.

 

[midsman]

it depends on where and how the load cable runs. If it’s in the fabric of the building its part of the fixed wiring.

so a fused spur that has the wiring before the spur that is in trunking or wall mounted is okay to wire into but if it’s in the wall it’s not?

 

[Chuck]

so a fused spur that has the wiring before the spur that is in trunking or wall mounted is okay to wire into but if it’s in the wall it’s not?

Some of the confusion here may be because the word 'spur' can refer to several different things. I'd use it to mean a branch circuit tee'd off a main circuit. It's also often used to refer to what I'd call a fused connection unit (FCU). FCU's come in several types, one of which is a flex ('pigtail') outlet that are often used to supply things like immersion heaters or boilers*.

My reading of @Murdoch is that in his opinion it's okay for you to connect flex into an existing FCU flex outlet but from there back to the consumer unit will be 'fixed wiring', which requires additional qualifications to work on. Where the FCU is being used as an isolator, not a flex outlet, it's a job for an electrician.

(*) There's a school of thought that holds that boilers should be connected via a 13A plug and socket so that a heating engineer can visually verify isolation before working on the boiler.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Boilers don’t run on a 13A fuse. (Just so that you know)

 

[Chuck]

Boilers don’t run on a 13A fuse. (Just so that you know)

The '13A' in '13A plug' does not refer to the fuse it contains but to the maximum rating. A 13A plug fitted with a 3A fuse is still a '13A plug'. You can also get 2A, 5A and 15A plugs but these don't contain a fuse at all.

 

[midsman]

thank you for your replies by fused spur I mean the white box that things like boilers , shower pumps , immersion heaters are wired into
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thank you for your replies by fused spur I mean the white box that things like boilers , shower pumps , immersion heaters are wired into.

mu understanding is that these are called fcu’s

 

[Harvest Fields]

The '13A' in '13A plug' does not refer to the fuse it contains but to the maximum rating. A 13A plug fitted with a 3A fuse is still a '13A plug'. You can also get 2A, 5A and 15A plugs but these don't contain a fuse at all.

Was just clarifying as your original message didn’t say that.

 

[midsman]

So for me to be clear In my head lol Can a plumber Wire into an fcu (which I understand to be a fused connection unit at the end Of a spur or even on its own circuit from consumer unit) - a shower pump, a boiler, an immersion heater for a hot water cylinder. and also a zone valve and pump wired via the wiring centre. I’m envisaging the common situation face by plumbers whereby one is broken and needs replacing like for like.

Can this be done without being qualified electrically?

is it notifiable or minor works etc such that an electrician is required each time you want to swap a heating system component.

 

[Ric2013]

My understanding is that 'installing fixed electrical equipment is within the scope of Part P, even if the final connection is by a standard 13A plug and socket, but is notifiable only if it involves work set out in regulation 12(6A).' (ADJ, p.7)

I used to think that this heating control wiring needed to be carried out by a competent person or be notified under the building regulations. I have since been advised (on this forum) that this isn't what is meant by control wiring (which is, or used to be, notifiable).

In practice, I would rather do the work and then ask an electrician to check and formally sign the work off as most electricians understand electrical safety but not heating controls. This relies on a good working relationship with an electrician, however. It is worth noting that it is would be a small minority of electricians that would go to the effort of testing and recording the replacement of, say, a lamp pendant, provided the light goes on and off with the switch.

I suspect the technical answer is that while a lot of those works )even a directly like-for-like replacement of an electric shower) may not technically require to be notified, they still need to comply with the building regulations. As we are plumbers and do not have a comprehensive understanding of BS7671 (The IEE regs), nor do we have the specialist calibrated equipment with which to test any work we may carry out, then technically we would be unable to ensure that our non-notifiable work is 'inspected, tested and certificated in accordance with BS 7671' (ADJ, p. 10).

 

[Chuck]

Can this be done without being qualified electrically?

Here's my opinion for what it's worth.

A plumber with literally 'no electrical quals or part p.' should not be doing any work involving electricity in a customer's home until they have passed a recognised 'basic electricity for plumbers' course. This will teach you things like isolation, proving isolation, visual inspection, simple electrical tests using a multimeter, preparing and making straightforward connections, etc. It will also make it clear what you are and are not qualified to do. If you tell the instructor what sort of work you want to do they'll be able to say whether you're covered or which additional course(s) you need to take.

This is largely for your own protection. You do not want to injure yourself (hence the 'isolation') and you don't want to be the totally unqualified plumber who is being accused by a customer of incompetent electrical work.

Firstly, make a list of what you want to be able to do and contact your local college to see what they have on offer in the way of suitable courses. Secondly, try to develop a good working relationship with an electrician who can help you out with small jobs if necessary.

 

[midsman]

Thank you chuck for that answer. I like a clear answer. Where are these electricity for plumbers or basic electricity for plumbers courses? any recomendations

 

[Harvest Fields]

As we are throwing in opinions. Mine would be the fact that if the wiring is powering something that is already in place then an Heating engineer can wire up any part of the heating system he wishes as long as he holds the correct qualifications for that appliance. If however, he was taking out storage heaters and and immersion heater and putting a combi in the kitchen and a new spur is needed then a sparks should be doing the works. Or an engineer with electrical qualms.

 

[Chuck]

Where are these electricity for plumbers or basic electricity for plumbers courses? any recomendations

Here's an example of the sort of thing I had in mind:

Electricity for Plumbers | Learning for Life | BPEC

The BPEC Electricity for Plumbers course aims to help plumbers and heating engineers who work on central heating electrical control systems to work safely.

bpec.org.uk

I'd always start with a local / regional further education college as their courses are usually good quality and good value. If you're going to spend a significant amount on a course do your research and make sure you understand what you are getting and who will be teaching assessing and accrediting it before signing up.

 

[Ric2013]

While I agree with the opinions being ventured in this thread, I'm not sure whether they answer the question, which was, I think, "technically and legally what should we do?"

Reason I say this is that someone with an Intermediate Amateur Radio Licence is allowed to build his or her own radio (mains powered electrical), having (usually) studied the RSGB material. But then this person is not considered to be electrically qualified. The irony is that while I have been assessed as competent to wire a so-called "13A" (technically a BS1363) plug and build my own amateur radio as far as the RSGB is concerned, I'm not qualified to do so in other fields, even though it's exactly the same plug!

Why is this relevant? It's relevant because the C&G NVQ2 course contains an electrical element.. We are taught how to carry out very basic tasks such as junction boxes and FCUs and the safety aspect at a basic level and then told this isn't a qualification. Why, then, are we being taught this, if it doesn't make us competent? Well, because C&G knows you'll probably end up doing this sort of thing anyway and they'd rather you had at least a basic level of electrical education (my assessor's answer).

Similary, the BPEC course gives you a level of knowledge that then still doesn't make you a competent person. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, though useless to plumbers who lack the ACS CCN CEN gas certificates (pre-requisites). 'It has been designed with plumbing and heating engineers in mind and is limited to work that will NOT involve working on fixed installation of the property and addresses the following scope of work.' So you still wouldn't be legally allowed to do anything except repair the boiler, I take it?

 

[Ben-gee]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

 

[Ric2013]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

Yes, it means a certificate. Hence some of the shoddy electrical work I see was carried out by 'competent' persons.

 

[Murdoch]

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

Not just this.

No decent sparks sign off 3rd parties work - why would you?

What I come across is plumbers adding spurs to spurs, disconnecting the main equipotential bonding, and replacing showers without RCD's or a higher rating with insufficient cable size and / or breakers

 

[midsman]

While I agree with the opinions being ventured in this thread, I'm not sure whether they answer the question, which was, I think, "technically and legally what should we do?"

Reason I say this is that someone with an Intermediate Amateur Radio Licence is allowed to build his or her own radio (mains powered electrical), having (usually) studied the RSGB material. But then this person is not considered to be electrically qualified. The irony is that while I have been assessed as competent to wire a so-called "13A" (technically a BS1363) plug and build my own amateur radio as far as the RSGB is concerned, I'm not qualified to do so in other fields, even though it's exactly the same plug!

Why is this relevant? It's relevant because the C&G NVQ2 course contains an electrical element.. We are taught how to carry out very basic tasks such as junction boxes and FCUs and the safety aspect at a basic level and then told this isn't a qualification. Why, then, are we being taught this, if it doesn't make us competent? Well, because C&G knows you'll end up doing this sort of thing anyway and they'd rather you had at least a basic level of electrical education.

Similary, the BPEC course gives you a level of knowledge that then still doesn't make you a competent person. Not that I don't think it's a good idea, though useless to plumbers who lack the ACS CCN CEN gas certificates (pre-requisites). 'It has been designed with plumbing and heating engineers in mind and is limited to work that will NOT involve working on fixed installation of the property and addresses the following scope of work.' So you still wouldn't be legally allowed to do anything except repair the boiler, I take it?

Does competent mean having a certificate?

If a third party looks at/tests an installation and all is done to regulations and in a neat/tidy way then they would have to come to the conclusion that it was done competently.

This assessment of the work could not determine who it had been done by...

So does it matter if this was carried out by an electrician, brain surgeon, footballer or trained monkey?

insurance if something went wrong ? One big consideration is what piece of paper are your insurance company going want to see if anything you do goes wrong.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Not just this.

No decent sparks sign off 3rd parties work - why would you?

What I come across is plumbers adding spurs to spurs, disconnecting the main equipotential bonding, and replacing showers without RCD's or a higher rating with insufficient cable size and / or breakers

Same as if gas engineers sign off other engineers installs(you wouldnt)

 

[Ric2013]

Not just this.

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

 

[gpbeck]

You can hold a certificate yet be incompetent. You can be competent without holding a certificate and perform work of a very high quality without any qualification. This is how things used to be. Now an industry has developed to charge for training and then for registration, another tax upon trade. Things may well be better under this new system, but not always because mistakes still happen. Try buying a new build.

Competent just means “having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully”.

 

[midsman]

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

it’s the sort of thing that a lot of heating engineers / plumbers do but should they?

it’s such a grey area I’m beginning to wonder if it’s worth the risk. It seems to me these like for like component jobs are a two person job plumber and spark.

I’m trying to find a definitive answer as to who can wire into an fcu

practically competent and legally competent are different I think .In the end insurers etc are going to want to see evidence that you have the skill and knowledge to do something. Sadly I think this means a bit of paper

 

[Ric2013]

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

it’s the sort of thing that a lot of heating engineers / plumbers do but should they?

it’s such a grey area I’m beginning to wonder if it’s worth the risk. It seems to me these like for like component jobs are a two person job plumber and spark.

I'd do them because it's not notifiable work, being like for like. It would depend on the customer and also if I felt the existing electrical system was up to current standards or whether it was essentially running on grandfather rights.

What I would comment, however, is that, legally, I probably shouldn't because testing with a 1960s AVO8, if at all, is not to standard, but at least I can check the earth is connected. If I had a lot of this work, then I would pay for the training and the calibrated tools, but in the meantime there is, sadly, a limit to how much work I'm able to turn down. What I would say though is that the instances of court cases and prosecution of which I am aware generally invole a far greater level of negligence than mine.

 

[midsman]

Would you replace a broken shower pump. I.e plumbing side and also unwire old pump from fcu and wire in the new one to fcu or would you get a spark to connect the 3 wires? The same for a zone valve would you replace one for like and do wiring into wiring centre?

it’s the sort of thing I know

would you replace broken immersion heater in water cylinder and wire that to fcu

I'd do them because it's not notifiable work, being like for like. It would depend on the customer and also if I felt the existing electrical system was up to current standards or whether it was essentially running on grandfather rights.

What I would comment, however, is that, legally, I probably shouldn't because testing with a 1960s AVO8, if at all, is not to standard, but at least I can check the earth is connected. If I had a lot of this work, then I would pay for the training and the calibrated tools, but in the meantime there is, sadly, a limit to how much work I'm able to turn down. What I would say though is that the instances of court cases and prosecution of which I am aware generally invole a far greater level of negligence than mine.

thank for your reply. It’s more of the insurance issues if the house is damage or customer gets hurt than the prosecution side. Insurance companies will always try not to pay.

 

[Ric2013]

thank for your reply. It’s more of the insurance issues if the house is damage or customer gets hurt than the prosecution side. Insurance companies will always try not to pay.

Agreed. I'd only do it if I were 100% confident in the work. Obviously the customer getting hurt is a big one.

 

[Murdoch]

'All to regulations' includes the fact that the original installer either notified to Building Control and had independent testing carried (in England - think Wales is slightly different) or was a member of a competent person scheme. Not just doing notifiable work well but without being able to leave the relevant certification.

The insurance question is a good point. Which is why I suggested working alongside a friendly electrician. That said, I have replaced a valve actuator by myself. Not notifiable, and I'm not sure how much testing a real electrician would be doing, but possibly I've not tested to the BS. Admittedly, I suppose it's a risk.

I have in the past installed a shower pump in an airing cupboard, agreed to do the plumbing side but not the electrical side, i.e. comission the pump with a plug on the end of the flexible cable, and then remove the plug, leaving the customer to get an electrician in to wire it in to the manufacturer's specifications, as indicated on my invoice. If the customer then ignores my advice and refits a plug, that's up to the customer.

absolutely nothing wrong with plugging the pump in ....

 

[midsman]

absolutely nothing wrong with plugging the pump in ..

Could you wire the pump into fcu for example when replacing a broken pump or should that need an electrician to wire the 3 wires in

the same for the immersion heater and zone valve? - working them into to the fcu and the wiring centre

 

[Harvest Fields]

As a heating engineer. I would expect us all who carry the title to be able to take all wires out of a multiple zone plain 10 way junction box, mix them all up and be able to put every single wire back where they should be and the system to be working exactly as it was when you arrived. If you can do that then, a live, neutral and earth into a fused switch should be a doddle.

 

[midsman]

As a heating engineer. I would expect us all who carry the title to be able to take all wires out of a multiple zone plain 10 way junction box, mix them all up and be able to put every single wire back where they should be and the system to be working exactly as it was when you arrived. If you can do that then, a live, neutral and earth into a fused switch should be a doddle.

Couldn’t agree more. But is it legal to do. Will insurance cover it if it goes wrong. And what qualifications / training does one need to satisfy both those points.

 

[Ric2013]

absolutely nothing wrong with plugging the pump in ..

Except that by law all electrical goods that MAY be plugged in MUST come with a plug fitted. So Stuart Turner, who supplied the pump without a plug had to maintain the fiction that it MUST be wired back to an FCU. It's only wrong, hence, in that it is not in accordance with MI's.

I suppose that there is a risk of the plug terminals oxidising as they are not subject the abrasion of being pulled in and out occasionally. Realistically, though, in my own house I'd be perfectly happy with a plug and socket connection.

 

[Ben-gee]

C’mon guys let’s get real, we can’t let it happen that you have to get three qualified men in when you want to change a light bulb.

The ladder man, unscrewer/screwer and the health and safety officer - that might be four actually...

 

[Ric2013]

'Twas on a Monday morning the gas man came to call...

Ben-Gee. We all agree. But if the question is what legally we can do, then we'll quote the nth degree. Perhaps we need a thread called 'what would you realistically be prepared to do illegally'?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOA_SUKEZRE