The wisdom of fitting natural gas boilers and onward costs/RHI

[AJ16]

I posted a couple times about fitting a new gas boiler and would like to thank all who responded.
To re-cap I need a new boiler as the WB Heatslave is v/reliable but 20yrs old and probably only about 60-65% efficient.
Until today I was thinking Veissmann Visodent 30Kw, but I had a visit from a heating engineer, he said that over the past 6 months fewer stand alone gas boilers than ever before have been sold and that the market is dwindling in the face of fossil fuel price increases. With today's announcements from the scottish supply group it's clear that prices will probably go up every year by at least 10%. With this in mind the focus needs to be on running costs. I know I can get a new gas boiler installed for £2.5K, but with the RHI scheme about to start in October it seems that incorporating renewable technology into the heat generation of homes may take off in a similar way to solar PV panels. The engineer said that although the capital outlay is a lot more, the system will pay for itself by very low running costs and ongoing government cash incentives.
The system I'm waiting for details on does include a gas combi, but that's linked to a pressurised tank and an exterior heat pump panel. This panel is only around 2000h x 800w x 50mm thick, it can go anywhere outside, even vertical on a wall, it consumes 360W and works down to -21ºC, overnight it will heat the 250L tank for pennies.

I'm waiting for costs to instal and also details of the govt scheme, also got to do the maths to work out the cost projections to see which system will cost less over a 5-10 year period or more.

A more expensive option would be full heat pump with outside heat exchanger, that way no gas to pay for!

Has anyone else got experience of renewable for central heating?

AJ

 

[peteheat]

There are different types of that solar system BTW the panel is 5mm not 50mm.

Somebody has got their figures very wrong.

That said you don't need a combi, you don't even need a coil in the cylinder if you want it can work as a stand alone system, based on the details you posted I would wait for someone who knows more about them.

 

[Mike Jackson]

With the technology available at the moment, unless major grants are available, the payback period for renewable technology is far too long. To make proper use of it the house needs to be much better insulated than most existing properties. Upgrading the insulation to the point where renewables are a viable option for heating will be a considerable expense and once you add the cost of the equipment you are looking at payback periods in excess of twenty years. By this time much of the equipment will be at the end of it's life and will need replacing so the long term cost saving will be nil.

In my opinion the way to go with an existing domestic property that is on mains gas is a modern efficient boiler with weather compensation, upgrade the home insulation and look at heat recovery ventilation systems. With the rising cost of water it may be worth looking at rainwater harvesting options but this is not as straight forward as a lot of people assume.

If you are not on mains gas then renewables are a more viable option due to the increased fuel costs but still need to be looked at carefully.

In all cases the best and most economical option is to improve the insulation of the property.

 

[peteheat]

As I understand it north sea gas is near the end of its life, so the UK will become a nett importer of natural gas (if not already) that gas comes along a pipeline from Russia who can switch it off, increase prices or just decide they don't like the UK anymore if that happens Ireland gets caught in the crossfire as we are next in line on that supply.

The UK government think they are doing the right thing by introducing very generous grants for heat pump technology, what they appear to have forgotten is the UK is not producing enough electricity to make heating with heat pumps a viable alternative.

If you want a heat pump in Sweden you must get permission from your electricity supplier, they have been upgrading their housing stock for almost 20 years, they did forget that heat pumps need electricity so now its essentially rationed to prevent brown outs.

Why can't the UK government learn from the experience of Sweden?

Renewables and pay back is a myth, I never had a customer ask about the pay back on an immersion Vs boiling the water in a kettle, these units are appliances that people buy to serve a purpose and an added bonus is they are cheaper to run than conventional heaters.

Governments have their own agendas which is what I suggest everyone looks into in a little more depth, they are not giving grants because they like the idea of energy saving for the consumer, when is the last time you met a sincere politician?

Energy is a future problem for everyone, it is getting too expensive to waste so people need to look at the value there is in insulating at levels they never dreamed of, how about 200mm in the attic?

As the energy costs rise everyone will see the benefit of better insulation, smarter use of water, electricity and whatever fuel they choose be it fossil or biomass.

Governments need to be careful I believe they should look around them and ask their E.U. neighbours what worked, what the side effects were of introducing blanket grant schemes and to ensure that the citisen is not being sold a pup.

 

[phpaul]

some wise words in this thread big up respeck and all that

 

[AJ16]

Ok I'm still waiting for the figures and quote from the alternative supplier re renewable heating and will post here when I have them.
i do agree that efficient insulation is the first step to make sure that whatever heat is generated is kept in the living spaces of the house, I include preventing draughts in that.
onwards from there it just can't be right to rely on natural gas as a sole form of heating into the uncertain future as it's is a definitive resource.
Re the demand for elec to run renewable systems, apparently a 2000mm x 800mm x 5m exchanger panel is rated at 360W so even if everyone had one I don't see a problem with grid supply, after all most people have a kettle and/or an immersion heater at around 2Kw. Two PV panels on the roof would cover the cost easily anyway. GSHPs are another matter but they aren't viable for single properties anyway.

I also agree that we should not take everything we are fed by politicians as being the best advice and that's why forums such as this and others can be so useful in the exchange of hopefully unbiased and objective assessments of all technologies that are available both now and in the future.

Re payback I can't see the payback being 20 yrs as no one would bother so I suspect it's less than this. There could be a point re certain equipment having a limited life but a coil in a tank has no moving parts I think, nor does a heat exchanger panel as such, true a full ASHP has a compressor but aircon has been around for years and years so the life cycle figures should be readily available.

I don't have any particular views on the merits of any particular heating system at the moment, I have just been prompted to think about it as part of planning a replacement for my existing elderly gas boiler so looking for views from people in the know.

cheers, AJ