Replace Manual Potentiometers on Boiler Controls - GSR?

[Callum MacArthur]

Hi all, I have a combination boiler that uses two manual pots for controlling HW and CH temps. Was looking to replace these with digital pots that I control externally along with the timing function. I have no issue whatsoever replacing these with the correct functional and safety spec (including prevention circuit to not exceed min/max ohms), but would this be legally something that could only be done/recertified by a GSR person?

Cheers for any help!

 

[Harvest Fields]

What boiler do you have and why do you want to do this?

 

[Chuck]

Hi all, I have a combination boiler that uses two manual pots for controlling HW and CH temps. Was looking to replace these with digital pots that I control externally along with the timing function. I have no issue whatsoever replacing these with the correct functional and safety spec (including prevention circuit to not exceed min/max ohms), but would this be legally something that could only be done/recertified by a GSR person?

Cheers for any help!

As far as I am aware, modifying a domestic boiler in such a manner (or any manner for that matter) can't be done legally by anybody, GSR or not.

If you want a boiler with digital controls, you'll need to get one that the manufacturer designed that way installed (by a GSR).

 

[king of pipes]

You cannot modify these on the pcb and expect the manufacturer to stand by the warranty, not sure it would even be legal fitting smart controls, weather comp will give you all the control you will need , look at the new Intergas Etreme boiler nice looking unit designed for the European market . Kop

 

[Riley]

Yeah modifying a gas appliance is a big no no

 

[Gasmk1]

contravenes gas safety regulations and nulls all warranties

 

[townfanjon]

I cant see why you would want to

 

[Harvest Fields]

Come on. Was trying to get an explanation as to why they wanted too.

 

[Ric2013]

I suppose there is nothing to stop the OP setting the manual pots to max and then adding external controls though?
Callum - what are you hoping to achieve?

 

[Last Plumber]

Maybe the Boiler is inaccessible? Loft?
It's a no though.
You should not modify the manufacturers design.
It's obviously OK to have external controls but not OK to override the internally wired controls of an appliance.

The question of 'why', really needs answering though.
What's the ultimate goal?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Doubt that we will get an answer now.

 

[Last Plumber]

Doubt that we will get an answer now.

You think that the OP disappeared?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Maybe.

 

[Welder]

Can someone explain to me exactly how this is a GSR issue please?

 

[Riley]

Because they are modifying a gas appliance

 

[Welder]

Not meaning to be funny, honestly, but adding a control 'modifies' an appliance in that case.

 

[Riley]

But he’s talking about bypassing the controls on the existing boiler and attaching new to the pcb I’m assuming

 

[Welder]

Not as I read it. He's talking about moving the controls not bypassing. Basically the same as adding.

 

[Riley]

Guess it’s interpretation mate I read it the other way

 

[Last Plumber]

I read it that he wants to replace the manual pots with digital remote pots.
That would render the manu's pots redundant and have the new ones in place of them. He does mention the Ohms resistance of the new pots too.
To my mind that would be modifying a Gas appliances controls.

I cannot think how you could add an external control to do their job without overriding them?

 

[Harvest Fields]

Not as I read it. He's talking about moving the controls not bypassing. Basically the same as adding.

He’s talking about changing the configuration of the pcb mate.

 

[Welder]

Not the configuration H, just taking out two components and replacing them. Done similar loads of times for all sorts.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Not the configuration H, just taking out two components and replacing them. Done similar loads of times for all sorts.

But they will be set to manufacturers spec mate. I wouldnt do it.

 

[Callum MacArthur]

Hi all, not gone, just sleeping. To clarify, the reason for controlling the temps remotely are so that I can have them dynamically set depending on certain heating profiles and other sensor inputs.

As for the PCB, the components being changed are incredibly simple. They go from one resistance to another and that sets the temp the boiler aims to hit. The components have a certain spec, and as long as the new components meet or exceed that spec I can't see how it could possibly affect the safety aspects of the boiler?

As someone said above, there isn't a way to bypass these controls, but the pots themselves could be easily desoldered.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Hi all, not gone, just sleeping. To clarify, the reason for controlling the temps remotely are so that I can have them dynamically set depending on certain heating profiles and other sensor inputs.

As for the PCB, the components being changed are incredibly simple. They go from one resistance to another and that sets the temp the boiler aims to hit. The components have a certain spec, and as long as the new components meet or exceed that spec I can't see how it could possibly affect the safety aspects of the boiler?

As someone said above, there isn't a way to bypass these controls, but the pots themselves could be easily desoldered.

Sounds like you have made up your mind mate. However you should be talking to the people that make the boiler before you do anything.

 

[Welder]

As for the PCB, the components being changed are incredibly simple. They go from one resistance to another and that sets the temp the boiler aims to hit. The components have a certain spec, and as long as the new components meet or exceed that spec I can't see how it could possibly affect the safety aspects of the boiler?

As you say, very simple. To be fair though if you were to replace you'd need to use pots designed for constant use. Those manus use will not be.

HOWEVER (the backside covering bit), the proposed mod MAY somehow contravene gas regulations.

What I'd do personally is one thing, but in your shoes I'd be contacting Gas Safe to ask for chapter and verse on this question as no one I know of here is qualified to answer this very specific question.

It does occur to me that if, for example, you are an electronics engineer and can demonstrate competence to undertake this task then your position may be different to that of us everyday Joes.

As advisors to the general public, everyone on here has a duty of care to give what one might term 'official lines' of advice.

 

[Harvest Fields]

As you say, very simple. To be fair though if you were to replace you'd need to use pots designed for constant use. Those manus use will not be.

HOWEVER (the backside covering bit), the proposed mod MAY somehow contravene gas regulations.

What I'd do personally is one thing, but in your shoes I'd be contacting Gas Safe to ask for chapter and verse on this question as no one I know of here is qualified to answer this very specific question.

It does occur to me that if, for example, you are an electronics engineer and can demonstrate competence to undertake this task then your position may be different to that of us everyday Joes.

As advisors to the general public, everyone on here has a duty of care to give what one might term 'official lines' of advice.

I know your are a clever knowledgeable person mate. So I choose my next words carefully. Do you know what boiler it is? and do you know that the manufacturer will allow this?

 

[Callum MacArthur]

As you say, very simple. To be fair though if you were to replace you'd need to use pots designed for constant use. Those manus use will not be.

HOWEVER (the backside covering bit), the proposed mod MAY somehow contravene gas regulations.

What I'd do personally is one thing, but in your shoes I'd be contacting Gas Safe to ask for chapter and verse on this question as no one I know of here is qualified to answer this very specific question.

It does occur to me that if, for example, you are an electronics engineer and can demonstrate competence to undertake this task then your position may be different to that of us everyday Joes.

As advisors to the general public, everyone on here has a duty of care to give what one might term 'official lines' of advice.

Thanks for the advice Dave. If I were to go ahead with it I would indeed check with Gas Safe and see what they say. As it happens, your example is pretty much bang on, as I am an electronics engineer of sorts. It was a very specific thing to ask, and while I'm confident on the actual carrying out of the task and it's future, I know little about the legality of it.

But as you say, a disclaimer that only knowledgeable and qualified persons should carry out any work on a boiler - especially where it pertains to the gas and combustion side of things.

 

[Callum MacArthur]

I know your are a clever knowledgeable person mate. So I choose my next words carefully. Do you know what boiler it is? and do you know that the manufacturer will allow this?

It is a Vallient Ecotec Pro 24/28 and I haven't looked yet at their standing on this, as I assumed it was likely no w.r.t. any kind of warranty. However the warranty on this boiler is long gone I believe.

 

[Welder]

I know your are a clever knowledgeable person mate. So I choose my next words carefully. Do you know what boiler it is? and do you know that the manufacturer will allow this?

H. No I have no idea.

The last question is a very interesting one. The answer to that is, "It depends." and I'm not being flip - honestly.

I do have experience of modifying kit which, initially, the manu officially said could not & should not be done. However, when faced with losing sales to a competitor, they changed their mind and fully sanctioned it.

Manus quite rightly do not want people messing. No matter what people do, sometimes they screw up and it all goes Pete Tong; however many still, bizarrely, expect the manu to honour warranties. That's my personal definition of taking the pi55.

When however, you can demonstrate that you do completely understand consequences and that you accept that they then wash their hands of and downstream consequences, then often they'll let you mod. That's how many products get developed H.

 

[Harvest Fields]

It is a Vallient Ecotec Pro 24/28 and I haven't looked yet at their standing on this, as I assumed it was likely no w.r.t. any kind of warranty. However the warranty on this boiler is long gone I believe.

My above post wasn’t aimed at you mate. However now that you have commented I also need to say that the casing on a Vaillant ecotec pro is an integral part of the seal and to remove the casing you have to LEGALLY be gas safe registered. (If you are then please give your details to one of the following @ShaunCorbs @Lou or @Dan ) good luck getting an engineer to sign the boiler off knowing you are modifying it. You already sound like you know Vaillant will say no and it has nothing to do with warranty. It is to do with safety.
@ShaunCorbs am I being unreasonable here?

 

[Welder]

Therein lies the rub H.

The rules state only competent persons may touch it. We'll not go into definitions of competence... 3 weeks and all that!

 

[Welder]

My above post wasn’t aimed at you mate. However now that you have commented I also need to say that the casing on a Vaillant ecotec pro is an integral part of the seal and to remove the casing you have to LEGALLY be gas safe registered. (If you are then please give your details to one of the following @ShaunCorbs @Lou or @Dan ) good luck getting an engineer to sign the boiler off knowing you are modifying it. You already sound like you know Vaillant will say no and it has nothing to do with warranty. It is to do with safety.
@ShaunCorbs am I being unreasonable here?

NO ONE can think you unreasonable H !

 

[Harvest Fields]

Therein lies the rub H.

The rules state only competent persons may touch it. We'll not go into definitions of competence... 3 weeks and all that!

You say lets not. I say, I cannot. One mans competence is another mans idiot. Can I do electrics? Yes. Am I deamed competent? to some, Yes. Do I do electrics? NO. Why? Because I’m not qualified. People will do what they want no matter what is said to them. I’m just doing my bit.

 

[Harvest Fields]

NO ONE can think you unreasonable H !

Cheers mate.

 

[Welder]

You say lets not. I say, I cannot. One mans competence is another mans idiot. Can I do electrics? Yes. Am I deamed competent? to some, Yes. Do I do electrics? NO. Why? Because I’m not qualified. People will do what they want no matter what is said to them. I’m just doing my bit.

Legal definitions of competence vary according to the subject. I have an HNC in electronics. I've been building things for 50 years (since I was 12) but because I have not done a part P cert I am deemed 'incompetent'. However, someone who spends three weeks on a course is deemed competent. In a court of law facing charges of manslaughter it would be what was actually 'done' rather than a piece of paper that determined my guilt or innocence.

One of the things no longer taught, is the ability to use one's knowledge to determine a correct course of action / make decisions rather than blindly follow. IMO (it's never humble) too many incompetents run our world today and stop intelligent people questioning and progressing through the FUD factor.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Legal definitions of competence vary according to the subject. I have an HNC in electronics. I've been building things for 50 years (since I was 12) but because I have not done a part P cert I am deemed 'incompetent'. However, someone who spends three weeks on a course is deemed competent. In a court of law facing charges of manslaughter it would be what was actually 'done' rather than a piece of paper that determined my guilt or innocence.

One of the things no longer taught, is the ability to use one's knowledge to determine a correct course of action / make decisions rather than blindly follow. IMO (it's never humble) too many incompetents run our world today and stop intelligent people questioning and progressing through the FUD factor.

It’s not that I disagree. It just the laws mate.

 

[Callum MacArthur]

My above post wasn’t aimed at you mate. However now that you have commented I also need to say that the casing on a Vaillant ecotec pro is an integral part of the seal and to remove the casing you have to LEGALLY be gas safe registered. (If you are then please give your details to one of the following @ShaunCorbs @Lou or @Dan ) good luck getting an engineer to sign the boiler off knowing you are modifying it. You already sound like you know Vaillant will say no and it has nothing to do with warranty. It is to do with safety.
@ShaunCorbs am I being unreasonable here?

Yeah I know it wasn't aimed at me, but thought it could help the discussion instead of a bunch of assumptions dependent on the boiler. But you are quite correct about this particular boiler. I haven't opened it for precisely this reason, but was just looking for advice on how I would go about it on a legal standpoint. Looks like it will be more trouble than it's worth I think. Tempted to try and speak to a Vallient person, but I guess regardless of what they say it's still going to be illegal. Ah well, I will just content myself with setting up an alternative timing function as that doesn't require removing the case.

Edit: But thanks for everyone's contributions - especially H and Dave. They have been very helpful. I am in my first house so perhaps am just a tad excited for the chance to improve upon things, but last thing I want to do is anything deemed unsafe and/or illegal, so thanks for your advice.

 

[Harvest Fields]

Yeah I know it wasn't aimed at me, but thought it could help the discussion instead of a bunch of assumptions dependent on the boiler. But you are quite correct about this particular boiler. I haven't opened it for precisely this reason, but was just looking for advice on how I would go about it on a legal standpoint. Looks like it will be more trouble than it's worth I think. Tempted to try and speak to a Vallient person, but I guess regardless of what they say it's still going to be illegal. Ah well, I will just content myself with setting up an alternative timing function as that doesn't require removing the case.

If you can get it from Vaillant that it is ok. (In writing) then all you need is an engineer to remove the case and test afterwards.

 

[Callum MacArthur]

If you can get it from Vaillant that it is ok. (In writing) then all you need is an engineer to remove the case and test afterwards.

But would the act of opening it to do the work by myself be illegal regardless of if I was to get some in to check it? Or is it a case of it is only illegal if put into operation before being signed off?

 

[Riley]

This is getting very somantics I think you need to pick your own path here mate. You are asking questions which have lots of decent gas engineers twitching. I think you’re lucky the thread hasn’t been closed as you are being polite but what you are asking just sounds wrong to me whatever you deem your competency. I can’t believe that Vaillant will agree to this nor would I like to be the engineer putting it back together once you’ve bastardised it

 

[Welder]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l56.pdf

These are the Regs. Best you check yourself to be fair. Asking here can only elicit an opinion and interpretation of them as taught.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

And this thread has run its course all good advice by the guys and gals