Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?

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Discuss Potentially being taken to court. What should I do? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

That left hand pipe looks to be actually a pipe still with insulation on it. Photo is hard to see clearly though. And the pipes appear to be too shallow a depth?
Initially, on reading the start of this thread I thought, it is only £350 if it satisfies the customer, but reading on I would say DO NOT pay ANY money and DO NOT put anything in writing, text or email without careful consideration and advice.
As already advised, be careful anything verbal isn't being recorded.
I see the story as this, -

(1) You earlier serviced the combi boiler, but yet no phone calls were made to you about pressure dropping after you fitted the toilet. That's a bit odd.
(2) The pipes are below where pan was going, so if an original pan had previously been there, then those heating pipes were always in wrong location and you would be oblivious to that.
(3) The pipes are probably far too close to the top of floor, - would ideally need to be at least 75mm of screed above the pipe insulation.
(4)You used the proper pan fixings, as supplied by customer, and fitted them in correct location in relation to new pan.
(5) You have been informed months later of this allegation and been refused the opportunity to look at and make good anything, should it prove to be your fault.

Note that if you pay ANY money towards the fix, then you can be accused of admitting responsibility, simply by the fact you look guilty paying back money.
Remember judges will only work on evidence or admission of guilt, so keep any wording to just showing concern that the customer should blame you for another plumbers bad workmanship and also fail to contact you.
I think the law does allow for a customer to immediately get another tradesperson in to redo work, if the work has been done to a very substandard - like if a builder built a wall without a foundation, for example. But in that toilet install, it can't be judged as anything other than an understandable error due to previous work from an unknown plumber and even a professional expert (plumber) going to court for the customer would have trouble convincing a judge otherwise.
 
The claimant clearly doesn't have a leg to stand on. If it does go to court I don't think there's any chance they would find in her favour. The input from those on the forum on this one has been nothing short of excellent.
 
The replies to this thread have been great. It's all a lot to take in so far but in getting there.

I apologise that I'm not replying to everyone individually but I will eventually

Best. Thanks for the reply. My very very first thought was the same as you just pay it, get them off my back.

But then I thought I'd come on here first as I know I cant be the first person to have had something like this.

I spoke to trading standards/consumer helpline today, this is the jist of what got said.

I said I've done some work for a customer, drilled through a pipe etc, they didn't want me in the house, they have had repairs done without notifying me and now it's a case of £300 or we go to court.

The lady said their argument will be did I take adequate care/precautions/carried out checks to prevent this happening?

My argument is I was not given warning and the repairs were done without my knowledge. She said legally yes I should have been given a chance to rectify.

Thats the bulk of what came out of the call.

I know the same thing has been said on this thread but I thought I would get it confirmed for peace of mind if nothing else.


The one thing I need to know, is there any way I could have checked there were pipes there? Tools or gadgets? I'm not aware of anything.

I have a bosch cable/stud finder thing but it struggles to pick up a live cable so I know that would have been no good.

And for those who asked, there was no toilet there but there had been, had obviously been removed when the room was tiled. The supplies and waste were all there along with the old overflow. I have pictures myself that I took at the time which show the old brackets for the cistern. I connected on to the existing pipework. It was nothing more than a toilet change except someone had remove the old toilet before I ever saw the room.
 
Just a bit to add

You weren't aware of any pipes under the screed but you took precautions, once you drilled the fixing holes no water came back up etc drill bit wasn't damp etc

You can pad that out with some extra
 
Toilet change to modern type with different fixings Ash, can`t see how you were to know what was under the floor as you didn`t tile it. Like the point raised about how deep (or not) the pipe was under the pan.
Don`t know of any tool that you could of used to "find the pipe(s)).
 
If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.

Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.

I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.

Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
 
Last Plumber said:
If there was a WC there before then no-one would expect pipes to be beneath the tiles as the previous WC must have been fixed.

Personally, I would have wanted to see the leak and be given the opportunity to resolve the matter myself.

I would not be apologising or paying anyone else's Invoice.

Any reasonable person finding a leak after someone has done work would contact the person they suspected of causing it and at least give them chance to deal with it.
Click to expand...
See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).
 
How do you know the old toilet didn't cause it when installed etc?
 
rpm said:
On a pressurised system?
By the way why are you deleting my posts again? (Not this thread).
Click to expand...

Moved both posts to his ongoing topic as he jumped on someone's else's didn't yours ?
 
rpm said:
Not that one Shaun, the muppet who hijacked a thread with a different topic, I wasn`t even rude for once :D
Click to expand...

Yes that's the one I moved your two posts to the original one he posted ages ago did yours go missing ?
 
rpm said:
See so many where silicone used instead of screws though LP.
Now starting to think the tiler would of seen the pipes(?).
Click to expand...


I see plenty of pans stuck down too but I see it as lazy unless it's known there are pipes beneath. I'm sure most mi's on pans would say to fix down with correct fixings. I could be wrong and maybe they say it's OK to stick down.
 
rpm said:
No idea.
Apologises Ash.
Click to expand...


No probs.

Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.

I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.
 
armyash said:
No probs.

Also I have my call to TS recorded. I haven't heard any thing back from the customer today.

I have a new call recorder app and it works perfectly, once the call has ended I can send a copy of the recording to my email. If I hear from the customer again or if I decide to write to them I will make it clear that all communication is being recorded/logged.
Click to expand...
Sounds useful Ash, which app is it?
I agree with you doing it properly with the fixings by the way.
 
They have said they want 300, the total cost for repairs is more I believe from what they have said but I don't know thr final figure. I don't know if it's more than one firm involved or exactly what they are paying for.
 
rpm said:
Sounds useful Ash, which app is it?
I agree with you doing it properly with the fixings by the way.
Click to expand...


Its called 'call recorder'

You may get ads on your phone from downloading it but there looks to be a few apps that do the same thing.

This came top of the search results and no problems so far.

_20180514_200337.JPG
 
tbh, I`m thinking of the answer machine calls where the customers speak at 100mph and I struggle to get their name and address.
What is it with some people speaking to a machine for gawd sake!
 
rpm said:
tbh, I`m thinking of the answer machine calls where the customers speak at 100mph and I struggle to get their name and address.
What is it with some people speaking to a machine for gawd sake!
Click to expand...

or keep saying emm emmm then the phone goes dead
 
The customers partner also said to me she would be happy to accept the payment in instalments "because she knows you don't have a lot of money"

That was a strange thing to say as I've never discussed my finances with them, it makes me believe even more that she is a bit of a snob. Must be because I get dirty in work I couldn't possibly earn good money. Even when I would say hello or at the end of the job I was overly polite if anything always grateful for my payment and she would look at me like something she had stood in.

I earn half decent money and my partner earns good money. Not that this has anything to do with the matter but I took it as a way to belittle me.
 
armyash said:
The customers partner also said to me she would be happy to accept the payment in instalments "because she knows you don't have a lot of money"

That was a strange thing to say as I've never discussed my finances with them, it makes me believe even more that she is a bit of a snob. Must be because I get dirty in work I couldn't possibly earn good money. Even when I would say hello or at the end of the job I was overly polite if anything always grateful for my payment and she would look at me like something she had stood in.

I earn half decent money and my partner earns good money. Not that this has anything to do with the matter but I took it as a way to belittle me.
Click to expand...
Excellent, offer her a £1 a week :cool:
 
I'm going to write a letter tomorrow to explain everything to them. I will ask for all the relevant information, say why I don't accept liability.

I will say I surely needed to be made aware of the situation before any repairs were Carried out or at least been informed sooner than I have been.

Will say all calls will be recorded and logged.

Will explain it was an accident and that all reasonable care was taken when carrying out the work. Will add some plumbing related stuff in about pipe in screeded floor depths, not being run in the best place. Toilet was already there.

Will add plenty more and may have to write it a few times. Will send recorded delivery.

All thanks to the replies on here! Thanks.

If it ended up in court and I lost. I could live with that but I don't like how it's all been done.
 
i would say this "Will explain it was an accident" as it sort of admits

i would say along the lines of

sometimes accidents happen etc
 
Does anyone have a link to something that shows I legally should have been made aware of the problem or been given a chance to arrange repairs before it got this far.

I have been told to quote consumer act 2015 but I can't find anything that shows what I need. Im hoping to quote something in the letter.
 
I would probably say something along the lines of
Please send me pictures and copies of all invoices and reports so that I can pass it onto my insurance company to investigate. Unfortunately as you didn't notify me of the issue, give me chance to rectify myself ,arrange another comply to do so or involve my insurance provider I don't think there is anything that can be done.
 
You will probably over think this and worry too much.
Just keep gathering any evidence and facts together and stay calm. Also hope the woman gets angry and says something stupid in writing.
Get a friend who has some experience in legal sort of issues to help you at each stage.
 
Shaun etc. Sorry, but you are wrong on the recording of your own calls.

You DO NOT need to inform anyone you are recording UNLESS it is to be used by another party. That was straight from the ICO and when we joked about that being recorded he said perfectly fine.

YOU may legally record what you like so long as it is for your OWN use. That includes using it as evidence if ness as that's for you. As soon as third parties are involved (training, quality etc) then notification is needed.

I'll carry on reading now...
 
YorkshireDave said:
Shaun etc. Sorry, but you are wrong on the recording of your own calls.

You DO NOT need to inform anyone you are recording UNLESS it is to be used by another party. That was straight from the ICO and when we joked about that being recorded he said perfectly fine.

YOU may legally record what you like so long as it is for your OWN use. That includes using it as evidence if ness as that's for you. As soon as third parties are involved (training, quality etc) then notification is needed.

I'll carry on reading now...
Click to expand...

You sure about this as there's new rulings coming down due to the Facebook stuff that includes all records etc
 
ShaunCorbs said:
You sure about this as there's new rulings coming down due to the Facebook stuff that includes all records etc
Click to expand...

Still think the rule - as long as the information isn't passed on to a third party, then it is still legal.
I did it once to protect myself from any possible allegations and it proved handy to note take later precisely what was said.
Sadly I think recording audio and often video is now the way to do a lot of business, just to keep accuracy and to protect ourselves from false allegations.
 
AA. Your life, but as I've explained, I've been there done it and won.

As I have already said, you are being mugged. This is actually VERY simple to resolve so do not be sidetracked.

Send a letter asking for full details of everything. By that I mean a complete breakdown - her story and copies of everything. Happy to put it together for you if it would help. You have my number so you can text me an email address. The point of this is to see what they have. You cannot begin to negotiate if you have no info and no point to start from. The letter needs to 'infer' that its point is to assess your liability so you can cough up an appropriate amount. However it must not even infer any form of liability.

Once the info is received it shows their hand. Once their hand is exposed an appropriate response can be formulated. It allows you to go back and either say 'fine here's £50' or 'go away'.

DO NOT try to make a letter look legal. It is fraught with problems and will immediately put them on the defensive. It has to be an honest letter (always keep 1/2 and eye on the fact it may end up in court), reasonable and open. In other words very carefully crafted an unambiguous in its content.

This can very easily go away. Let me know if I can help.
 
100%. GDPR applies from 25th May and until then its old (98) data protection act. Even so, so long as it's for personal use its fine. GDPR is all about non exploitation.
 
That’s not even close to the repair costs. I would have thought about £500 and more. How comes that the engineer who got called out knew exactly where to look for? That would have been one of the needle in te hay stack one.

I’m pretty sure the previous one has caused it and blames it on you
 
Yorkshire dave, I will text you my email address this morning and I will call at some point this afternoon when I am free. Thank you.
 
Without having to read through all this post again, did you see the 'drilled hole', I mean could it have been a pitted copper pipe?
If you've already said then ignore me, I have lost track a bit now.
 
Matchless.plumb said:
That’s not even close to the repair costs. I would have thought about £500 and more. How comes that the engineer who got called out knew exactly where to look for? That would have been one of the needle in te hay stack one.

I’m pretty sure the previous one has caused it and blames it on you
Click to expand...


I don't know what the final costs are, just that I've been asked for £300.
 
Last Plumber said:
Without having to read through all this post again, did you see the 'drilled hole', I mean could it have been a pitted copper pipe?
If you've already said then ignore me, I have lost track a bit now.
Click to expand...


Only picture I have of the damage is the picture I have posted on this thread.
 
£300 is a modest sum and often a small amount like that is a ploy to get the tradesperson to just pay up to avoid any trouble.
Interesting she said she would accept instalments as she knows you don’t have much money (in her opinion).
That’s very telling, as she assumes she is getting cash payments from you, rather than paid from your insurance.
 
armyash said:
Only picture I have of the damage is the picture I have posted on this thread.
Click to expand...
If you've not even seen the 'alleged drilled hole', then don't lose any more sleep. What are the grounds for taking you to Court?

That they allege you drilled through a pipe which came to light some months after but rather than give you the opportunity to investigate and rectify any mistake you might or might not have made, they decided to get another Plumber to repair it, discard the evidence and send you a photo of a repaired section of pipe along with an invoice for £300? Have you seen the invoice?


Honestly Ash, I doubt this would even get passed a solicitor never mind into a Court.
I would politely, in person, with her and her partner, explain that they should have contacted you as soon as they suspected a leak.
Don't get into an argument, just explain as nice as you can and walk away. I cannot see her taking this much further to be honest.
I know Solicitors near me (North West England) charge £240 per hour. Not many people would start that ball rolling for the sake of £300. Especially not if the case against you is as weak as it sounds.

I am only a Plumber offering advice and giving my opinion here. It is not legal advice from a professional legal person. I can only tell you what I would do in your shoes, as a Plumbing person. :D
 
rpm said:
No pressure drop?
Click to expand...

About the pressure drop, it is unusual to find but I have come across a pipe that had been screwed into actually effectively sealing the leak. I don't think you could get it to seal if you actually tried but it can happen. I have been to a leak that was caused by a screw in a pipe that was damaged weeks ago but only started showing after some time. If you were to drill through tile and screed but not into the pipe and then banged a screw through the lot and into the pipe, I could see it sealing up or at the very least only showing a tiny pinhole type spray which might not show for a while.

Just a thought as to the unusual length of time between the work being carried out and the leak showing at the boiler.

Ash, after your call to trading standards to see where you stand I hope you at least feel a bit better about this horrible situation. I really think the law is on your side with this one.
 
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