Please help me with employer holding my wages

[EastLondonPlumb]

Hi all i wont go into too much detail. Basically i worked for this guy direct not through an agency for a month, i was on fortnight pay with a fortnight in hand. I left early a few times and had them on my back. On a Friday the supervisor asked 2 of us to come in on Saturday and told us job and knock. He sent a text on Saturday morning trying to cancel out the job and knock but we left anyway.

When the boss come back the following Wednesday and found out he went off his head, swore at me, spoke at me with disrespect, all this while i never spoke or raised my voice to him in anything other than a professional manor. I agreed with him that i would not book the Saturday which i left early.

On Friday i was due 11 days money to which i got an email saying this

'Thank you with your phone call with regards to Jays wages, could you please pay him 5 days as discussed and could you hold the other half due to his work not have been tested on site, once testing is complete i will authorize the other half'

This is day rate work not price. When i called him and asked him to explain he said the work 4 hiu's and 8 second fixes on kitchen sinks needed testing, i asked him to test it with a pressure tester at 10 bar, he was going to agree and said what about the kitchen sinks (which are not even complete as their where no drain of valves, washing machine vales or iso valves so they are incomplete) i said test them to, which he said he is going to charge me 2 days money to test, i said go on then do it! To which he changed his tune and said no it needs to be heat tested. I honestly laughed at him no pipes i installed were hot pipes going through any walls or anything heat will not make a blind bit of difference.

He said he will pay the 6 days when the site is complete in December something i have never heard of in my life, also the contract i signed agree's 5% retention but states nothing about holding back wages. I plan to write a letter tomorrow and give him 14 days to respond as advised by ACAS and then take him to court. I just wanted as much information about the implications of having tested hot pipes at 10 bar and the difference with heat going through them with regards to leaks only.

Not that it matters because what he is doing is not right anyway, i cant wait to take this guy to court, i have evidence to back everything up.

 

[village idiot]

Sorry about your plight.
Why do you need them tested at up to 10 bar?
As for holding your wages, it is hard to give you advice without reading the contract you had with them? There may be clauses in there relating to payment terms.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Were you employed, or sub-contracting?

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Sorry about your plight.
Why do you need them tested at up to 10 bar?
As for holding your wages, it is hard to give you advice without reading the contract you had with them? There may be clauses in there relating to payment terms.

Hi there, the reason it was 10 bar because this was the standard pressure they were testing at on site. 10 bar does seem a bit much without crimp fittings, but with crimp i saw one fitting which had not even been crimped (plastic) hold up to 5 bar and blow at 6.

The contract only states 5% retention, i challenged him on this not being in the contract and he said yes that contract is only for insurance purposes so contract wise he does not have this covered i can assure you. And i was sub contracting.

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Were you employed, or sub-contracting?

Subbing mate

 

[rpm]

Tell me if I`ve got this right, you were employed on a day rate and in one month you left early "a few times" and was pulled up over it and then to top it you ignored an instruction from your supervisor.
I`ve known people to be told don`t bother coming back tomorrow for stuff like that.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Subbing mate

The reason I asked was because there is very robust and aggressive legislation stopping employers from withholding wages - which are the words you used in the title.

Unfortunately, he isn't your employer and the money isn't wages. Its an old fashioned story of the contractor bashing the subbie - a tale as old as time, and with a hundred varieties, twists and turns.

There are two routes. Careful and patient, properly documented legal route. If you search this forum, or the UK Business forum, you will find lots of procedural advice.

Then there's the other route.

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Tell me if I`ve got this right, you were employed on a day rate and in one month you left early "a few times" and was pulled up over it and then to top it you ignored an instruction from your supervisor.
I`ve known people to be told don`t bother coming back tomorrow for stuff like that.

Yes that is right, i was unprofessional.

 

[Centralheatking]

Well Quoted Ray - This fella is in the poo
centralheatking QUOTE=Ray Stafford;698359]The reason I asked was because there is very robust and aggressive legisaltion stopping employers from withholding wages - which are the words you used in the title.

Unfortunately, he isn't your employer and the money isn't wages. Its an old fashioned story of the contractor bashing the subbie - a tale as old as time, and with a hundred varieties, twists and turns.

There are two routes. Careful and patient, properly documented legal route. If you search this forum, or the UK Business forum, you will find lots of procedural advice.

Then there's the other route.[/QUOTE]

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

The reason I asked was because there is very robust and aggressive legisaltion stopping employers from withholding wages - which are the words you used in the title.

Unfortunately, he isn't your employer and the money isn't wages. Its an old fashioned story of the contractor bashing the subbie - a tale as old as time, and with a hundred varieties, twists and turns.

There are two routes. Careful and patient, properly documented legal route. If you search this forum, or the UK Business forum, you will find lots of procedural advice.

Then there's the other route.

Thank you Ray, unfortunately i can not do the other route, as much as i would like to believe me. I am going to go down the legal route, i am going to write a letter tonight and give him 14 days to respond as advised by ACAS. Then i will just take it to either a tribunal or small claims court whatever is the more appropriate. I will record the letter so to have proof he signed for it.

 

[Centralheatking]

Please keep us informed of your progress - Its important for other
fellas to track it in case it happens to them.

Anyway where are you living maybe we can help you -
We do Liverpool, West Lancashire, --its getting cold
we hope soon plenty of work up here PM ME

centralheatking

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Please keep us informed of your progress - Its important for other
fellas to track it in case it happens to them.

Anyway where are you living maybe we can help you -
We do Liverpool, West Lancashire, --its getting cold
we hope soon plenty of work up here PM ME

centralheatking

Thank you centralheatking, i certainly will do that. I will post on here what happens. I live in London, i do have little supervising exp and exp managing 2 social housing reactive maintenance contracts so i am trying to get an office job with a main contractor maybe as an RLO.

Centralheatking being the king of heat could you please tell me if it is possible for a pipe to leak under heat if it would pass a 10 bar water test. In my 8 years exp i would say it is impossible. Soldiered joints, compression, fiber washers and push fit are the fittings that are used.

He is talking rubbish i know but i want to be able to quote real evidence he is talking crap in this letter which i will eventually present at court. Thanks

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I've had fittings leak after heat testing them, I'll add that's not after testing at 10 bar!

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

I've had fittings leak after heat testing them, I'll add that's not after testing at 10 bar!

Water expands when it is heated, so this would rise the pressure. But if a 10 bar test exceeds the final pressure of the heated pipe it would not leak? Is that correct?

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Yes but then what about if it's just a fracture or pin hole in the solder and the flux keeps it water tight till the heat test?
im not saying that's the reason for it but I have had a weep after heat testing.

 

[Kay101]

Water expands when it is heated, so this would rise the pressure. But if a 10 bar test exceeds the final pressure of the heated pipe it would not leak? Is that correct?

10 bar is very high pressure
If its open vented it will not increase in pressure regardless of how hot it got
The highest I've known is 7 bar
5 bar is a reasonable test pressure

 

[Kay101]

Yes but then what about if it's just a fracture or pin hole in the solder and the flux keeps it water tight till the heat test?
im not saying that's the reason for it but I have had a weep after heat testing.

fair enough but its very rare, usually a pressure test will find a leak if its there

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Yes but then what about if it's just a fracture or pin hole in the solder and the flux keeps it water tight till the heat test?
im not saying that's the reason for it but I have had a weep after heat testing.

Having seen what you all said helps thank you all. Regardless of the test, for him to withhold money due to these reasons he needs to have that in writing with my signature he cant just change the rules to suit himself.

I will write him a letter tonight and with regards to the heat test i will write something along the lines of.

'You told me you would not release payment until the water systems are fired up as to be heat tested, i offered you to test all the work to the 10 bar you use on site and you told me you would charge one days money to test 4 hiu units. I agreed to which you stated that you would also want to test eight second fixes on kitchen sinks which were incomplete due to lack of materials being drain off vales, iso valves and washing machine valves. To have that tested it needs to be completed and i can not be responsible for any fault with this work once someone else has worked on it. However it would have been possible to cap the second fix to test but you said it would take someone two days to test 4 hiu units and 8 second fixes on kitchen taps. I find that unreasonable as it took me under a hour to test the whole first fix on an entire floor of 4 flats. I agreed to let you charge me two days and go ahead and test it, not that i agree with being charged for testing as this is an actual stage of works which is needed to be completed and is a vital part of any work completed. I offered you and are still giving you the chance to test all work at 10 bar, non of the systems are unvented so heat expansion will not exceed 7 bar. With further regards to your heat test you did not have the correct equipment on site to perform a heat test nor was there any mention of any heat test, the standard practice was to test with a hand pressure test with air or water, water being the more commonly used.'

 

[lame plumber]

tribunals are for employment law and employees, not you though. Question is how much is actually owed to you, is it for materials or just labour, 1000s or 100s, time to think is it worth the hassle and walk away if its not, it will cost you more to take him to court and even if and when you win, he can pay a £1 a month if he has no money!

 

[deandive]

Id be knocking on his door...........but then again I am 6'4" and well built. Saving that take him to small claims court, it may stop him doing it to others in the future.

 

[rocketmanbkk]

What is job & knock please?

 

[rpm]

Saturday morning jobs can be, Go when your done and book all morning.

 

[Millsy 82]

I have found in the past that when an employer starts holding back money it usually ends one way. It has happened to me twice in the past (I was directly employed though) the first time I got taken for £3500.00 and the second time only about £150.00 but I spotted it before it was too late and walked 3 weeks later he went bankrupt.

Try and get your money back but don't hold your breath.

 

[Rickster123]

I have found in the past that when an employer starts holding back money it usually ends one way. It has happened to me twice in the past (I was directly employed though) the first time I got taken for £3500.00 and the second time only about £150.00 but I spotted it before it was too late and walked 3 weeks later he went bankrupt.

Try and get your money back but don't hold your breath.

did you get your 3500 back from when you were employed?

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I have found in the past that when an employer starts holding back money it usually ends one way. It has happened to me twice in the past (I was directly employed though) the first time I got taken for £3500.00 and the second time only about £150.00 but I spotted it before it was too late and walked 3 weeks later he went bankrupt.

Try and get your money back but don't hold your breath.

i think I would have emptied the van into my shed if it happened to me, that's a lot of dosh mate.

 

[brum]

Unfortunatley if your subbing this will happen possibly on a regular basis especially if you are in a city or big town been there know exactly how you feel bud all the best anyway..brum

 

[southcoastboile]

I can see it from both sides I think it's unfair of him to ask you to pay two days wages to test the installation but if there is a few leaks it would cost him money to put right.

from what I can make out you also left early without testing the work. I think you should have stayed to test it as you were on a day rate and it hadn't been finished. From the employers point of view this is a bit of a p*ss take.

he has agreed to pay you some money and the rest after testing. I would make sure you get the first lot and agree a fair price for the rest. What he has offered doesn't seem fair.

If you are subbing on a day rate and you don't work a full day I think he has every right to be annoyed.

The court could perceive it as fraud if you have invoiced at a day rate and left early. It's always best to talk it out rather than mess around with court fees etc.

 

[Nostrum]

How much are you owed?

 

[Millsy 82]

did you get your 3500 back from when you were employed?

Not through the company and not all of it. I got some back off The government I think it was from the NI

 

[Millsy 82]

i think I would have emptied the van into my shed if it happened to me, that's a lot of dosh mate.

I did I got 1 transformer, 1 sds drill, 2 leads and a 110v light. The rest of the kit was mine. 1 of the lads sold 1 of the vans! But unfortunately mine was a hire van as the head gasket went on mine.

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Just an update i sent them a powerful e-mail threatening court and received payment a week later

 

[turnpin]

Thanks for the update ELP glad to hear you resolved the problem...regards Turnpin

 

[T & H Plumbing]

Sorry to hear of your problems wish u well and get all your owed me on the other hand would approach it a different way it's called a Freddie forehead but I'm from Yorkshire n I have attitude problems

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Sorry to hear of your problems wish u well and get all your owed me on the other hand would approach it a different way it's called a Freddie forehead but I'm from Yorkshire n I have attitude problems

Haha I would of liked to a Freddie forehead approach believe me! I went down the writing and legal line and got it that way.

 

[EastLondonPlumb]

Thanks for the update ELP glad to hear you resolved the problem...regards Turnpin

Thanks Turnpin