Newly installed combi losing pressure

[hedylaura]

We just spent £3k+ upgrading our old open-vented system boiler system to a new combi condenser boiler (Viessmann 30kw) system which worked less than a week before the pressure dropped to 0 resulting in no hot water or heating. The plumber came and topped up the system saying it was "just one of those things" that happens occasionally for no discernable reason. So I duly paid him for his work. Then a few days later it happened again.

Now the plumber is saying ("in his opinion") that we have a leak in the pipework on the ground floor. He reasoned this because one of the radiators on the top (first) floor had completey drained, and had it been a leak on the top floor there would be signs of it on the ceiling. He topped it up again as a temporary measure so we were able to have hot showers on our return from a trip to Oz, but by the time we got back (less that 24hrs later) it had dropped to zero again.

He is suggesting re-piping the entire ground floor, which will ruin our flooring.

I can't see any evidence of a leak, and we had the place checked for damp not so long ago and this did not flag up any problems in the areas where we have pipework.

So my questions are - is he right? And are there any other ways to determine if/where there is a leak without going to the extreme lengths of ripping up flooring? Is it possible that the plumber caused the leak by over-pressurising the system?

And more importantly - am I liable for the additional costs that this will incur? In my view he hasn't finished the job he set out to do - we did not just buy a boiler off him, we bought hot water and heating. Both of which have been supplied for no more that a week in total since the installation 1 month ago.

Thanks for your help!

Hedy

 

[GrahamM]

Was it just a boiler upgrade using the original radiators and pipework?

 

[rodders]

was

Is it possible that the plumber caused the leak by over-pressurising the system?

It is always a concern when changing from open vented to a sealed system that the old pipework may not be up to the pressure required for a sealed system. This is something I would have pointed out if I was the plumber. The PRV should kick in at 3 bar so it couldn't have gone over 3 bar so I would say he has not caused a leak by over pressurising but the old copper was not up to the job.

There could be another issue so I will ask this. What was the pressure when you topped it up when cold?

 

[hedylaura]

Yes it was.

 

[hedylaura]

was

It is always a concern when changing from open vented to a sealed system that the old pipework may not be up to the pressure required for a sealed system. This is something I would have pointed out if I was the plumber. The PRV should kick in at 3 bar so it couldn't have gone over 3 bar so I would say he has not caused a leak by over pressurising but the old copper was not up to the job.

There could be another issue so I will ask this. What was the pressure when you topped it up when cold?

Not sure, I haven't been there the times he has topped it up.

 

[hedylaura]

Just spoke to him on the phone. I asked if there any way of testing the system before committing to ripping up the floor, and he said no, unless we wanted to isolate the downstairs pipework from the system and wait for a week to see if there was any pressure loss. This doesn't seem like too bad a prospect, we can hole up upstairs for a few days and at least we'll have hot water, but he was clearly trying to talk me out of it.

It also took a while to hammer him down on how much it would cost. He eventually said around £400. I expressed my discontent at having to pay for this when in my view, this should come under part of his quote which says (and I quote) "Re-pipe to accomodate new position or system type" as the old pipes clearly do NOT accommodate the new system type.

To be fair to him though, NONE of the other plumbers we got quotes from ever highlighted a potential problem with switching to a sealed system with old pipework. Wishing we just got a new cylinder now because the old boiler was fine...

 

[GQuigley67]

my contract clearly states i wont be held responsible for leaks caused by increases in pressure on existing system, and it should not be his fault either, its one of these things which happens unfortunately, not all the time, but sometimes. How big a leak ? how long does it take to loose pressure ? adding leak sealer to the system may help

 

[rodders]

Not sure, I haven't been there the times he has topped it up.

The system should be around 1 bar when cold. Read the boiler manufacturers instructions for their recommendation. I state this as if you say it doesn't look like a leak I would eliminate the possibility that theres too much pressure in the system to start with. If its filled to 2 bar for example as the water is heated the pressure increases and the pressure relief valve may open making the system lose pressure. Check this first (pressure when cold 1 bar).

As someone just said leak sealer may be a good option if the pressures are confirmed to be correct.

 

[hedylaura]

my contract clearly states i wont be held responsible for leaks caused by increases in pressure on existing system, and it should not be his fault either, its one of these things which happens unfortunately, not all the time, but sometimes. How big a leak ? how long does it take to loose pressure ? adding leak sealer to the system may help

Less than 24hrs. He said that he did not recommend using leak sealer with a brand new boiler. Do you know why this is? I was not shown any kind of contract before the work was carried out. If I'd known this and the potential risks I would have thought again. Plumbers hold all the knowledge and therefore have a duty to the customer to let them know all the risks and what they are/are not liable for.

 

[GQuigley67]

I have never had to use leak sealer on a new boiler so will have to look into that one myself, but when changing from an open vented system which has a pressure of 0.1-0.3 bar roughly, to a sealed system which will have a pressure of 2bar(+/-) when hot, then there is a good chance of leaks on the existing pipework, this must be made clear as if it does happen customer will blame the installer. I explain this and have it in my terms and conditions so once customer signs it I am no longer liable.

 

[GrahamM]

He should have informed and made clear the issue about older fittings/pipework not being upto the task for a new higher pressure system.
If this was definitely not mentioned he should carry some of the cost to make good the system as far as I am concerned.

Only non-evasive option is to try leak sealer. This can have good results depending in size of leak. Other than that, some exploratory work under floors is only other option.

 

[hedylaura]

I have never had to use leak sealer on a new boiler so will have to look into that one myself, but when changing from an open vented system which has a pressure of 0.1-0.3 bar roughly, to a sealed system which will have a pressure of 2bar(+/-) when hot, then there is a good chance of leaks on the existing pipework, this must be made clear as if it does happen customer will blame the installer. I explain this and have it in my terms and conditions so once customer signs it I am no longer liable.

Thanks for that. I will check the paperwork that I signed and see if he has a similar clause.

 

[P4ULT]

If you were in the plumbers position would you be willing to say it was your fault?

 

[hedylaura]

If you were in the plumbers position would you be willing to say it was your fault?

If I had been the plumber I would not be in his position right now because I would have felt morally obliged to point out the potential risks, just as GrahamM, above.

 

[Rickster123]

You can't expect him to be liable for the entire existing 20 ish year old system surely?

 

[P4ULT]

out of interest how many quotes did you get.

 

[GQuigley67]

the plumber can only be liable for what he has installed, but he should have advised of the risks, i have had a few leaks caused by upgrading boiler to sealed system

 

[GrahamM]

You can't expect him to be liable for the entire existing 20 ish year old system surely?

The point is the potential issues are clear and should have been highlighted to the customer. If this was not made clear or even mentioned, the installer has been neglectful and should incur some of the expense to put right in my opinion.

 

[hedylaura]

You can't expect him to be liable for the entire existing 20 ish year old system surely?

The point is that he withheld information from me that could have altered my decision of what kind of system to go for. We had the system replaced because our cylinder was leaking, so we had the choice to simply replace the old cylinder or upgrade the whole system to a more efficient one. The latter option was sold to us on the basis that it would save us money in the long run. Now we're going to have to fork out for more pipework on top of the 3k already spent, and have to replace god knows how much flooring. Don't think this will be the cheaper option in the long run any more...

 

[davebigpipes]

It's not really his fault, even if you kept same system it could have been a problem who is to know it hasn't been leaking for a while and topping itself up all the time from the f&e tank? I would keep filling it up and looking for leaks best you can and just fix the leak if you find it and not the whole downstairs

 

[GQuigley67]

didnt you say the installer already said to you the difference in pressure could cause problems ?

 

[hedylaura]

out of interest how many quotes did you get.

Four.

 

[Rickster123]

I wouldn't personally keep filling the system up as this can lead to rapid sludge build up in the system. There are company's out there that can trace leaks under floors. I would google it and see if it's cheaper than the 400 quoted.
I wasn't having a personal dig at you in my earlier post. But there's only so much that the enineer can be responsible for. As said above the leak could've been there for years and with the old system you never would've known.

 

[hedylaura]

As an aside he also kindly relieved us of our ~8 year old perfectly serviceable boiler which could have fetched a couple of hundred quid on ebay, a 1 year old mid-position valve and also our old enormous copper cylinder which I understand can fetch a hundred quid or so as scrap these days. So I think it even more fair that he at least contribute to this extra work. Swings and roundabouts, eh?

 

[GQuigley67]

lol couple of hundreded for an old boiler??your havin a laugh arent you ?

8 years old ? what make and model?

 

[Gordon T]

Must of been made of gold. Ha ha.

 

[Rickster123]

Ah the joys of scrap. Did he take all the packaging and cardboard and polystyrene away? People never mention that!:!blank:

 

[hedylaura]

It's not really his fault, even if you kept same system it could have been a problem who is to know it hasn't been leaking for a while and topping itself up all the time from the f&e tank? I would keep filling it up and looking for leaks best you can and just fix the leak if you find it and not the whole downstairs

There may well have been a leak before. But as the pressure in the system has now increased around 100 fold (~0.1 bar for an open-vented system to 1 bar for a sealed system) I expect the discharge through the leak has also increased 100 fold.

 

[hedylaura]

didnt you say the installer already said to you the difference in pressure could cause problems ?

Where did I say that? 100% sure he didn't.

 

[GQuigley67]

thats 10x laura, not 100, and if the leak was already there then he can almost certainly not be held responsible. I'm afraid these things happen and its a shame, but he should have been clear about the problems and if you were willing to take the risk.

 

[GQuigley67]

"To be fair to him though, NONE of the other plumbers we got quotes from ever highlighted a potential problem with switching to a sealed system with old pipework. Wishing we just got a new cylinder now because the old boiler was fine..."

 

[Howsie]

He should have pointed the risk out to you but you sound like you're out to get him now. Would you prefer that he left all the scrap/rubbish for you to deal with? His quote would have taken into account the scrap value of the cylinder, if you were keeping it then it would have been added onto the price for the job.

 

[hedylaura]

Ah the joys of scrap. Did he take all the packaging and cardboard and polystyrene away? People never mention that!:!blank:

Not all of it! He left loads of bits of pipe and packaging around the place. He also left the remnants of his lunch - a kebab. Which festered in our house for a while before we realised where the smell of fermenting onions was coming from...

 

[Howsie]

Not all of it! He left loads of bits of pipe and packaging around the place. He also left the remnants of his lunch - a kebab. Which festered in our house for a while before we realised where the smell of fermenting onions was coming from...

Messy pup! That is not good.

 

[Rickster123]

Not all of it! He left loads of bits of pipe and packaging around the place. He also left the remnants of his lunch - a kebab. Which festered in our house for a while before we realised where the smell of fermenting onions was coming from...

Haha that did make me chuckle. Sorry. I think the bottom line is if you were to take this matter further I'm 99% sure he wouldn't be held responsible. You obviously need to sort the problem but if you have no faith in the installer then it may be better to get the work done through a third party. It's unfortunate but as said by others these things happen from time to time.

 

[hedylaura]

"To be fair to him though, NONE of the other plumbers we got quotes from ever highlighted a potential problem with switching to a sealed system with old pipework. Wishing we just got a new cylinder now because the old boiler was fine..."

I meant none of the other plumbers INCLUDING HIM ever highlighted a potential problem.

 

[GQuigley67]

ok well the way I read it was different, strange none of them advised on the problems as its pretty bog standard stuff and is a possibility of future problems which the customer will then blame installer

 

[hedylaura]

thats 10x laura, not 100, and if the leak was already there then he can almost certainly not be held responsible. I'm afraid these things happen and its a shame, but he should have been clear about the problems and if you were willing to take the risk.

Ah yes. Maths not my strong point. I am gradually coming to terms with the fact that we'll have to pay a few hundred pounds to resolve this matter. But I am getting a different plumber to do the work. In my view the original guy neglected to tell me the full story, so he has now missed out on servicing our boiler for the next 5 years. Let's hope he's learned his lesson for next time.

 

[GQuigley67]

post on here in "i'm looking for a plumber/gas engineer" and your location, someone from the forums may be able to help

a thermal imaging camera would probably be the way to go to try and find the leak though to minimise damage to your house but could be costly!

 

[hedylaura]

He should have pointed the risk out to you but you sound like you're out to get him now. Would you prefer that he left all the scrap/rubbish for you to deal with? His quote would have taken into account the scrap value of the cylinder, if you were keeping it then it would have been added onto the price for the job.

It didn't mention anywhere in the breakdown of the quote that the value of scrap would be subtracted. And OK so I am venting! I need to so you lovely people can then put me in my place so I can start to feel more zen about the situation...

 

[Howsie]

lol - where are you based and how did you come by this kebab quaffing plumber?

 

[Rickster123]

Have a large drink and sit in a darkened room. It could've been worse. Could've been a leak upstairs and the ceiling could've been down. Every cloud.....

 

[hedylaura]

lol couple of hundreded for an old boiler??your havin a laugh arent you ?

8 years old ? what make and model?

The 8 years was a guess by one plumber, and now I can't remember if that was the age or how many years it potentially had left. Can't remember the make either but probably still have the instruction leaflet knocking around. Considering how much brand new boilers cost and knowing the condition of the boiler myself I'd be prepared to pay a couple hundred for it, especially if I had a cylinder of a similar age. I don't know! Please enlighten me.

 

[GQuigley67]

an old boiler will fetch you less than £20 at the scrappies, you should not be fitting 2nd hand boilers imho

 

[hedylaura]

lol - where are you based and how did you come by this kebab quaffing plumber?

St Albans and the guy lives around the corner from me, though I found him via google.

 

[hedylaura]

an old boiler will fetch you less than £20 at the scrappies, you should not be fitting 2nd hand boilers imho

Fair enough. Thanks.

 

[GQuigley67]

when customers want to keep scrap i tell them they can keep the rubbish aswell, its not cheap to dump the rubbish you know

 

[mfgs]

Agreed, I always state the the old copper etc will be removed from site in my quotes. If they want to keep it then the price will go up.

 

[hedylaura]

Have a large drink and sit in a darkened room. It could've been worse. Could've been a leak upstairs and the ceiling could've been down. Every cloud.....

Ha! I don't need an excuse to have a large drink, but on your professional recommendation I shall. And it will probably be in bed, until our heating is back on. :bucktooth:

 

[hedylaura]

when customers want to keep scrap i tell them they can keep the rubbish aswell, its not cheap to dump the rubbish you know

I know. The price of disposing the rubbish was clearly included in the quote.