Gas work notification

[Andy Dignall]

I've been out of the game for a couple of years after having surgery on my knees and am thinking of going back on the tools.

Is there still a legal requirement to register an installed appliance with corgi/gas safe for local building control and if so how many people actually use it. After speaking to fitters in my local area they seem to shun it of late since Capita gave the details of the installed appliance details to the inland revenue and most received fines for tax evasion

 

[E4gas]

I register all my boilers with gas safe , best of my knowledge it's a legal requirement . Customers all ways ask for it ,

 

[GasSafePR]

Andy

Sorry to be blunt but need to set the record straight on your post. Notifying appliances is a requirement under Building Regulations. You are notifying through Gas Safe Register, not to us (we are essentially acting as a postbox).

As for your second point, we operate the register on behalf of the HSE and we are legally obliged to respond to information requests from HMRC.

GasSafePR

 

[gasmarc]

Yes that sounds like a clever idea help maintain a massive data of all your customers so that boiler manufacturers , british gas etc can poach all your customers which is starting to happen now and to add insult to injury we pay for it what a joke. Regarding the HMRC i think thats a great way to catch people who are not paying tax

 

[justalex81]

i fully agree with catching people not paying tax. I

 

[Halesowen1]

Not paying the tax, means you are undercutting the honest ones. So I am another for the tax payers.

 

[gasmarc]

Its no surprise we get undercut because are out goings are much more compared to the bloke who doesnt have to pay anything out. I recently had a customer who told me he wanted a worcester or vaillant combi installed for a grand or less .I quickly educated him agreed a price that I was happy with and the guy started being pushy and I told him to go else where as he was being an idiot from the start and I could foresee agg getting paid

 

[oldsalty]

Andy

Sorry to be blunt but need to set the record straight on your post. Notifying appliances is a requirement under Building Regulations. You are notifying through Gas Safe Register, not to us (we are essentially acting as a postbox).

As for your second point, we operate the register on behalf of the HSE and we are legally obliged to respond to information requests from HMRC.

GasSafePR

Being blunt is OK but could you struggle to be honest as well, please. Recent dealings I have had with Gas Safe (and I have the emails if anybody wants to see them) demonstrates to me that Gas Safe is nothing more than a cash cow for the HSE. Government makes a law which lays down that nobody can work on domestic gas without having a gas safe engineer do the work. Government then sets up a register which charges for membership of that register so that the gas engineers the previous law made the legal obligation for consumers to use can be used. Training organisations (usually government sponsored and owned by politicians) can then set themselves up and charge an arm and a leg for courses to get qualified - Oh, and don't forget that everybody who gets qualified must then get themselves requalified every time the rules change.

And this applies to electricians as well as plumbers so the government is on a real good screw AND AT THE END OF IT ALL THE GAS SAFE REGISTER HAS ABSOLUTELY NO LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY NOR AUTHORITY TO HELP OR ADVISE ANYBODY!

 

[Gordon T]

I thought this notification mallarky had died out? I know quite a few that dont do it now due to third parties getting customers information. Ive never known anyone being prosecuted either for not having it notified.

 

[Halesowen1]

[QUOTE And this applies to electricians as well as plumbers so the government is on a real good screw QUOTE]

No Plumbers dont have to have any qualification, nor experience, nor pay any association.

 

[oldsalty]

I was using the term 'plumber' in its generic sense since, it seems, most of the people who are on the Gas Safe Register advertise their services as 'Plumbers' and not 'Gas Safe Registered Combi Boiler (for example) Installation Person'. On further pondering one has to ask how long it will be before water (which after they have regulated Gas and Electricity installations/work to the hilt is the only thing that householders can deal with without having to have all sorts of expensive training, testing and retesting - or have to pay somebody an arm and a leg to 'maybe' turn up to do the job - and I have TWO recent examples where plumbers were booked and failed to turn up - without telling me they weren't going to be there) is found by some obscure government regulatory authority to be lethal (people die when they breathe it in in quantity - maybe we will all have to pass a swimming test to be able to qualify to be a 'Water Safe Registered Person') and that also will be regulated so that we householders will have to employ an expensive 'Water Safe Registered' 'plumber' (there goes that generic term again) to change a washer on our kitchen sink taps!

 

[Mike Jackson]

Once you understand the risks involved with hot and cold water systems it makes sense that plumbers should be registered as well as gas engineers. Do you know how to support a cold water storage system correctly? It may not seem a lot but last year there were a couple of deaths due to failed thermostats and incorrectly supported cold water storage cisterns. Do you know how to prevent the growth of legionella bacteria? Incorrect plumbing can help it to grow.

It's a shame that the government hasn't got the balls to legislate for a safer plumbing industry.

 

[johnnyplumb]

Once you understand the risks involved with hot and cold water systems it makes sense that plumbers should be registered as well as gas engineers. Do you know how to support a cold water storage system correctly? It may not seem a lot but last year there were a couple of deaths due to failed thermostats and incorrectly supported cold water storage cisterns. Do you know how to prevent the growth of legionella bacteria? Incorrect plumbing can help it to grow.

It's a shame that the government hasn't got the balls to legislate for a safer plumbing industry.

you got plenty cash then mike,are you not paying enough to all the other parasites already.

 

[oldsalty]

But Mike, it's NOT the legislation that is the problem with these schemes, it's the enforcement. I'm not a plumber (nor am I a Gas Safe Registered Person) but I am a Part P and 17th Edition qualified electrician who labours under the same onerous regulatory framework as a gas engineer. I came onto this forum to get advice regarding why the 'Gas Safe Registered Person' who I was obliged to employ (against a threat of a fine of GBP5000.00p if I didn't use a Gas Safe Registered Person) to instal my new combi boiler CANNOT be 'punished' by his regulatory body (the Gas Safe Register) nor by Building Control when he hasn't done the job properly. I have the evidence that the guy has broken the law in what he did but he CANNOT be held to account - and THAT, Mike, makes me ask the question 'what's the point of the Gas Safe Register (or any type of register) if somebody can get themselves registered but then can merely operate as a cowboy and be immune from prosecution - indeed the Gas Safe Registration people are busting a gut to protect the guy (maybe so they don't lose his membership payment next time around) - under the rules of that Registration body?' The Gas Safe Register have even said that despite what a registered member does, unless he is actually sent to jail (and only then if he tells them he is in jail!), THEY WILL NOT DE-REGISTER HIM TO PREVENT HIM DOING THE SAME TO OTHER HOUSEHOLDERS WHO HAVE NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO EMPLOY AN UNSUPERVISED, UNSCRUPULOUS, ABOVE THE LAW PROPERLY REGISTERED GAS SAFE PERSON - WHO HAS PAID HIS MEMBERSHIP FEE AND BOUGHT PROTECTION!

I forgot to mention that I am trying to get a petition onto the Government Website calling for the scrapping of the Gas Safe Register - because it has no legal authority to do anything apart from taking membership fees from its members (don't believe what I say, ask Megan Haigh at Gas Registration) - perhaps I would be wasting my time inviting you to join in and sign it, if it makes it?

 

[CES]

Just out of interest Oldsalty, what did he do that broke the law?

 

[oldsalty]

Sorry CES, can't be specific about who or what because I'm considering private prosecution and giving details of what he did/didn't do, who I am, where I am etc will give him a heads up and I want to see his face when I hand him whatever bit of paper I have to give him to get him into court.

 

[Puddle]

If he has broken a law,contact HSE to investigate and prosecute if deeded fit or take civil action,that is the route to take
Gas safe is not responsible for that side of things,may as well blame them for you missing your train or bad weather conditions.
If I find a id situation,I ,as a gsr,do not ring gas safe,I contact or fill in paperwork to the HSE

There you got,fill ya boots

HSE: How to contact the Health and Safety Executive

Once your claims have been confirmed by a recognised ,independent body,gas safe can remove operative from the register

 

[oldsalty]

Thanks for that puddle. But can anybody tell me, truthfully, that Gas Safe Register (as a supervisory body appointed by the HSE) should NOT be responsible for the proper protection of consumers from the antics of the people who pay over money to buy legitimisation to operate as a Gas Safe Engineer in an environment where householders have absolutely no other option? Call me a cynic but the ONLY reason Gas Safe don't want to know is that it will remove some income from their coffers the next time his membership fee is due.

 

[Mike Jackson]

you got plenty cash then mike,are you not paying enough to all the other parasites already.

I'm already a member of the CIPHE. Gas Safe registration is not that expensive although the cost of training and re assessment is quite high you need to factor that into your pricing structure. It's too easy to call yourself a plumber in this country, as can be seen by some of the threads that pop up on here. With a statutory registration scheme we might stand some chance of the public realising that they need a properly trained plumber and not joe bloggs with a couple of spanners doing it for beer money.

 

[cr0ft]

I'm all for regulation. The biggest risks as I see it that are preventing plumbers from earning a decent self-employed wage at the moment are: -

1.) Semi-retired plumbers working for far less than the hourly rate that would be necessary to support a business and a plumber. The amount of people who I've heard who say something like 'well I use my van for something else anyway so I don't need to cover the running costs of that'. Mostly good plumbers but with no business acumen!

2.) People who call themselves plumbers but who clearly don't know how to do their job properly, thus jeopardising the reputation of our industry.

Regulation, and more importantly enforcement of (think Part P for how this shouldn't be done) is the key to weeding out the 2 people above. Yes, it raises the hourly rate we have to charge but if it weeds out the cowboys and part-time plumbers then it's no bad thing in my opinion.

Apologies if this causes offence to anyone but it's just my opinion.

 

[oldsalty]

Thanks for that cr0ft.

As a householder who has been/is being failed by the regulatory system I would add:

Stop fining householders GBP5000.00p (or holding the threat of such over their heads) if they choose to do the job WTHOUT employing a Gas Safe Registered Person/Part P (the system is the same for both trades) BECAUSE the system of control and regulation of and reliability of the people registered with the scheme has been proven to be fundamentally flawed and is ineffective.

And please don't apologise in case you offend somebody. If somebody gets offended by statements of truth regarding the system of regulation and control then perhaps they just might get offended enough to do something about it. I'm all for constructive offending of people!

 

[Gray0689]

That's ok we will stop regulating everything then
Let's look at what bad regulation does
Banks bad regulation world recession
Doctors bad regulation Harold shipmon

Just 2 off top of my head but I'm sure we all know of the effects that bad or no regulation have on things
So if we scrap regulation on gas safe and anyone can do the work in own home what happens when that person sells there own home to someone else and there is a problem who do they go to ???
You obviously have had a problem with some kind of work you have had done if you don't tell us what it is we can only comment on your posts
You are disgruntled with something was it a cheap job you had done that went wrong

 

[oldsalty]

Thanks for that Gray 0689, you say:


'So if we scrap regulation on gas safe and anyone can do the work in own home what happens when that person sells there own home to someone else and there is a problem who do they go to ???'

So I'm a householder who has had a job done by one of your properly registered and legitamised Gas Safe Registered Combi Boiler Installers, paying GBP1850.00p (not including cost of boiler) for the installation (plus 1 new rad) in a 3 bed, 2 storey semi built in 1962 and I can't get the job signed off because it has not been done properly. Of course we don't discover this until many months later when the Gas Safe Certificate hasn't arrived!

Where should I (and I've done everything properly within the law) go; forget about those DIYers who get it wrong, they get what they pay for; tell we householders who do it properly AND STILL GET SCREWED, where we should go?

The organisation you pay your membership fees to uses those fees to protect the bad guys.

Again, please tell me where we should go?

I note from your Avatar that you are a 'UK Plumbersforums Trusted Advisor' - PLEASE TRUSTFULLY ADVISE ME.

 

[Gray0689]

What is wrong with it ?
If it is a dangerous installation you can get hse involved and they can prosecute the installer
If it has coused damage to your property you can get your installers insurance company out to try and put a claim in

 

[oldsalty]

Again, thanks for your interest and yes, I am/will be in the process of doing all that but why does the Gas Safe Register not have any responsibility? Why have they not said to me 'send your evidence and we'll suspend the guy pending full investigation' but all they will say is 'we have no legal authority' to quote Helen Haigh in an email she sent me 'we have not been given any authority' . If a gas safe engineer fails or breaks the law he should immediately be removed from the gas safe register (pending full investigation) and that should be the responsibility of your registration body, and NOT the householder!

 

[Gray0689]

Then all I can say is if gas safe won't look in to it they don't think it's a safety issue just a disgruntled householder I'm not saying you didn't have a problem but ad you won't post the problem we can't comment on it

 

[Mike Jackson]

Gas Safe run the register on behalf of the HSE and have no authority to prosecute, only the HSE can do this.

Also look at things from the point of the gas engineer. If an engineer was suspended when a complaint was made against them it would cause major hardship and loss of earnings. Great, you may say, but what if the complaint is a malicious one? I was the subject of a malicious complaint a few years back and the investigation found that I was completely in the right, why should I lose my income because of a malicious neighbour where I was working?

The system isn't perfect but it's a damn site better than it was before regulation.

 

[Gray0689]

Gas Safe run the register on behalf of the HSE and have no authority to prosecute, only the HSE can do this.

Also look at things from the point of the gas engineer. If an engineer was suspended when a complaint was made against them it would cause major hardship and loss of earnings. Great, you may say, but what if the complaint is a malicious one? I was the subject of a malicious complaint a few years back and the investigation found that I was completely in the right, why should I lose my income because of a malicious neighbour where I was working?

The system isn't perfect but it's a damn site better than it was before regulation.

Well said

 

[Puddle]

Of course we don't discover this until many months later when the Gas Safe Certificate hasn't arrived!

What 'Gas Safe Certificate'' ?,did not know there was one

Are you sure you are not confusing a gas safely issue with the registration/Notification of the boiler under the energy efficiency regs

 

[johnnyplumb]

I'm already a member of the CIPHE. Gas Safe registration is not that expensive although the cost of training and re assessment is quite high you need to factor that into your pricing structure. It's too easy to call yourself a plumber in this country, as can be seen by some of the threads that pop up on here. With a statutory registration scheme we might stand some chance of the public realising that they need a properly trained plumber and not joe bloggs with a couple of spanners doing it for beer money.

i agree it's to easy to call yourself a plumber but you'll never stop this happening, statutory registration will only add to our already high costs when mr illegal does'nt have this problem. it could be argued that it would make things worse rather than better, especially just now when times are hard for most households.

 

[Halesowen1]

Without knowing what was wrong nobody can help you. If Gas safe dont think its bad enough to do anything I dont see what we can do without knowing the facts.

 

[sparra1100]

Again, thanks for your interest and yes, I am/will be in the process of doing all that but why does the Gas Safe Register not have any responsibility? Why have they not said to me 'send your evidence and we'll suspend the guy pending full investigation' but all they will say is 'we have no legal authority' to quote Helen Haigh in an email she sent me 'we have not been given any authority' . If a gas safe engineer fails or breaks the law he should immediately be removed from the gas safe register (pending full investigation) and that should be the responsibility of your registration body, and NOT the householder!

gas safe is a register run by a private firm for the hse ,gas safe inspectors will come out if work is dodgy so thats the first thing you should have dont secondly you wont get anywere in a court cos ive been there done that with a customer that owed me money and anything under £5000 forget it they can award you want you want, he doesnt pay you anything for 4 weeks you go back to court with more expense to you; same again you get awarded again nothing happens cos he just doesnt pay again and so the circle goes on and on till youve paid out thousands and you relise your paying for nothing cos its less than £5000 at the start plus the certificate you get is only for building regs so you dont have to pay £300 ,nothing to do with gas safe there just the middle man basically its up to you to pick the installer and make sure he,s good by checking previous work or by recomendation from people you no, that say he,s done a good job al be suprised if you get anywere mate cos there proberly hundreds of people like you going off some of the work ive seen and people on here has spoke about

 

[SafeGasInstall]

why can you not provide the story ? this thread will beat all recordes for visit and post if you do !

 

[sparra1100]

why can you not provide the story ? this thread will beat all recordes for visit and post if you do !

cos its easy to come on here gas safe in and blame us installers when the customers dont do any checks on who there getting and it goes wrong

 

[Gray0689]

cos its easy to come on here gas safe in and blame us installers when the customers dont do any checks on who there getting and it goes wrong

I agree most don't do there homework on installer just go for the cheapest nastiest they can get

 

[fuzzy]

Once you understand the risks involved with hot and cold water systems it makes sense that plumbers should be registered as well as gas engineers. Do you know how to support a cold water storage system correctly? It may not seem a lot but last year there were a couple of deaths due to failed thermostats and incorrectly supported cold water storage cisterns. Do you know how to prevent the growth of legionella bacteria? Incorrect plumbing can help it to grow.

It's a shame that the government hasn't got the balls to legislate for a safer plumbing industry.

how could it be done? gas is difficult enough, complaints here of people not paying tax or doing work unregistered, this would cause a nightmare

 

[crashndie]

gas safe corgi hse and tax man is only out to make cash, fair enuff i agree with the safety side of it. if gas safe wasnt out to make money why do we pay 500 quid for 1st registry the pay every year to them plus for every reg appliacne should be 1 or the other not both ! as for the tax man if am passing 100 % of your normal work and paying your way, why shouldnt you be able to keep 0.2% of your forinors in your pocket? by the time you pay over heads tax price met the last fella got the stock done the job your lucky to meet the min wage for the day.

 

[fuzzy]

gas safe corgi hse and tax man is only out to make cash, fair enuff i agree with the safety side of it. if gas safe wasnt out to make money why do we pay 500 quid for 1st registry the pay every year to them plus for every reg appliacne should be 1 or the other not both ! as for the tax man if am passing 100 % of your normal work and paying your way, why shouldnt you be able to keep 0.2% of your forinors in your pocket? by the time you pay over heads tax price met the last fella got the stock done the job your lucky to meet the min wage for the day.

gas safe are required by HSE law, not something that gets through parliament with the sole intention of being a business is it?

why should you keep money from your own jobs when others pay tax? if you run it as a business you should pay tax. if you cannot make it pay you cannot do the work but not pay the tax, every business in the country would be claiming the same

if you or others take issue with registering gas then surely also registering plumbing would make it worse?

 

[oldsalty]

Somebody posted that there was no such thing as a Gas Safety Certificate? These two attachments (I'm no computer geek so they are probably not perfectly presented) were issued by CORGI (Gas Safe Register replaced CORGI) in 2006 (I have removed identification details for obvious reasons). The covering letter states quite clearly that it is a 'Certificate of Gas Safety' and the certificate itself (towards the bottom) contains the proviso that 'some aspects of gas work might need Local Authority Building Control approval'. This indicates to me that the primary role of the system is to ensure Gas Safety with Building Control Regulations taking very much a second place. This is why it p*sses me right off that the Gas Safe Register is trying to abrogate its reponsibility for ensuring the people they take money off to allow them to do gas installation work are held to account BY THEM when they don't do the job properly.

Has the system changed since 2006 and Building Control now has primacy? Does anybody have a certificate issued by Gas Safe Register which we can compare with these old ones?

 

[Gray0689]

Gas safe was introduced in 2009 corgi before that

If your not going to tell us what the problem is with your installation That's got you all upset then we can't comment except sounds like you would be a nightmare to do any job for

 

[tamz]

hanks for the insight as to what a gas safety certificate looks like. I have never seen one but then again i am north of the border where we don't need to spend four quid or whatever it is nowadays (i'm not really interested) because it is not a requirement here.

Since your cert dates from 2006 can we assume (since you are not telling us) your boiler has been in for 5 years and some problem has now come to light that you are taking a severe umbrage to. Has this come to light after a service? Everyone makes their own interpretation of gas regs depending on their experience or engineering judgement as it is called, so don't take that to heart. It may have been over classified. Whatever it is cannot be a gas safety issue or gas safe and HSE would/may be interested.
Gas safe and corgi before them are only concerned about actual gas safety issues. The system could be thrown out the back of the van and the system piped totally wrong and irt would not bother them as long as the gas pipe, burner operation and flue ing were fine.
Instead of dwelling on this it may be better and cheaper just to move on.
The system is as it is and you won't change it no matter how loud you shout.
Happy new year from Scotland btw........Slange

 

[gasmarc]

well i have has dealings with corgi inspectors twice both times it was the customers who were wrong bitter and twisted and tried to screw me over because they were to tight to pay for quality in the first place and thought they could mug me off. Regarding reporting engineers to the GSR from experience dealing with Corgi it was a nightmare and a waste of time

 

[oldsalty]

The certificate is borrowed from my neWighbour who had a new boiler installed in 2006 (by a different installer, I might add). I would have liked to have been able to post a copy of my Gas Safe Register Gas Safety Certificate for the BRAND NEW boiler I had installed last year, at a cost of GBP1805.00p NOT including the cost of the boiler. And I am NOT trying to screw anybody over, all I want is a Gas Safety Certificate, so if the guy who installed it turns up tomorrow and the end result is that I get my Gas Safety Certificate then that is the matter closed. If he continues to refuse to turn up (AND the Gas Safe Register continue to say they have no authority to compel registered members to do their job properly) then I will pursue him through the civil courts and do all that I can get my Barrister to do to get him removed from the Gas Safe Register. The choice is entirely his, and he knows it.

For those of you who seem to believe that knowing what the problem is is the nub of the matter for you to be able to comment on the probity of the Gas Safe Register then I'm sorry but I don't know what the problem is (because I am not a Gas Safe Registered Gas Engineer) all I know is that I can't get a Gas Safety Certificate issued, nothing else matters.

I come from a long line of people who unashamedly do what they say they will do and expect others to treat them the same way, especially when all that was needed was for somebody to do the job they were paid to do (and provided with meals and drinks while they were doing the job!) and after being paid a fair amount for 3 days of work - if you consider that approach to be bad attitude or an attempt to screw you over then I suggest that it is you who has the serious problem, not me!

My closing comment on this matter is that I will, eventually, get a Gas Safety Certificate with or without the support of the ineffective Gas Safe Register

 

[Gray0689]

What do you mean where I hail from???????????
Is that all your problem is you didn't get a gas safe certificate????

 

[Halesowen1]

Oldsalty, dont tar us all with the same brush.

 

[GQuigley67]

"My closing comment on this matter is that I will, eventually, get a Gas Safety Certificate with or without the support of the ineffective Gas Safe Register and will make sure I employ a Polish, or French, or German, or Romanian trained plumber next time - God Bless the European Union!"

that last phrase really says alot about you

 

[Toned.f]

You appear to be a very strange individual Oldsalty

 

[sparra1100]

its customers like yourself we need protecting from who havnt done the checks on the person also its not Gas Safety Certificate your after its a building regs certificate your after, i think you should go and check you tube before you employ some of the people you have mentioned not everyone is bad or dodgy you,ll find your gunner spend a lot of time and money getting nowhere a lot of people on here have told you the score yet youve resorted to slagging us off cos you think were all in it together which were not its just were doing this day in day out and see this all the time when things go wrong

 

[stevetheplumber]

the customer from hell

 

[Puddle]

Just a foolish troll it seems

Thread closed