Gas safe regs - what gas work can be undertaken by other tradespersons?

[mattiker]

After being shot down twice yesterday, thread closed twice, hence this new one (Croppie, please have a little patients!). Not every non-GSR on here is a have-a-go-cowboy looking to blow themselves up. Neither am I interested in the slightest in breaking the law - or putting me or my family at risk, on the contrary I'm happy to get my wallet out when needed. However I do like to know where I stand with regards the law and regulations - not only that I like to know exactly what I'm paying for if I have to call in a GSR techie. So before you close this thread with a blunt 'stop playing with it and go pay a gsr guy' reply - read this, taken from the Gas Safe website:

What gas work can be undertaken by other tradespersons?
If the work required only involves the replacement of a water carrying component e.g. a pump or central
heating control valve, housed within the boiler’s decorative casing, the work could be undertaken by another
competent tradesperson e.g. plumber/electrician. Providing the work could be undertaken without having to
break a combustion chamber seal (see Can I take the case off my gas appliance? below), or disturbing
any gas carrying component, it would not need to be undertaken by a Gas Safe registered engineer.

I cant post the link but google for "What gas work can be undertaken by other tradespersons" then click the first link that appears.

The important bit in that quote for me is 'competent tradesperson' which whether this applies to me is open for debate - but I'd prefer to a sensible discussion about it instead of simply having my threads closed/deleted.

So there you have it - the facts straight from the horses mouth.

 

[Mustang]

Surely the quote itself there is saying that you cannot work on any gas related part of the boiler period?

 

[mattiker]

Surely the quote itself there is saying that you cannot work on any gas related part of the boiler period?

My original thread (now deleted) was requesting information about a dodgy 3 way diverter valve, and possible pump issue - I got shot down saying I should not be messing with it, one reply said I was breaking the law taking the cover off (not true, in my case at least the cover on my boiler is not part of the combustion chamber).

 

[jefaz]

What make of boiler is it?

 

[mattiker]

What make of boiler is it?

Baxi combi 105e

 

[gavinwilson]

So what trade do you have ?

 

[Deleted member 25704]

OP Mattiker

You are right.

 

[Reg Man]

Please go back to last thread and read my reply. The answer is there and is based on your quote.

 

[Avatar]

You are not allowed inside any boiler!

I am not GSR and i do use guys with the right tickets to install boilers and the like. I do all other works - apart from the gas appliance install and any gas pipework!

The rest is fair play to any plumber who knows what they are doing.

If a pump/valve is outside of the boiler (ie: system boiler) then you can touch it. Otherwise its a GSR no no . . . . .

 

[mattiker]

Please go back to last thread and read my reply. The answer is there and is based on your quote.

Reg Man - unfortunately that thread got closed so I could not reply. Thank you for you honest and accurate advice.

You are not allowed inside any boiler!

I am not GSR and i do use guys with the right tickets to install boilers and the like. I do all other works - apart from the gas appliance install and any gas pipework!

The rest is fair play to any plumber who knows what they are doing.

If a pump/valve is outside of the boiler (ie: system boiler) then you can touch it. Otherwise its a GSR no no . . . . .

Can you show me where in the regulations it says this? I'm not after a slanging match on this - just clarification and to stop any misinformation (which forums by their nature are abound with).

 

[Reg Man]

Quote: What gas work can be undertaken by other tradespersons?
If the work required only involves the replacement of a water carrying component e.g. a pump or central
heating control valve, housed within the boiler’s decorative casing, the work could be undertaken by another
competent tradesperson e.g. plumber/electrician. Providing the work could be undertaken without having to
break a combustion chamber seal (see Can I take the case off my gas appliance? below), or disturbing
any gas carrying component, it would not need to be undertaken by a Gas Safe registered engineer.

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...rtaken-other-tradespersons.html#ixzz2JHWmPSDt

Technicaly this quote is correct: but the risk is if you are not experienced on boiler work you could unwitingly open up a gas way (combustion chamber or gas component) with in the boilers decorative case, also you could accidentaly change something which could maladjust the gas workings on the boiler, so that is why the GSR guys are saying don't touch it.

 

[Dotty]

The important bit in that quote for me is 'competent tradesperson' which whether this applies to me is open for debate - but I'd prefer to a sensible discussion about it instead of simply having my threads closed/deleted.

Have you undergone the relevant CCN1 training, sat the exams and passed then registered as a Gas Safe engineer?

If not there is no debate.

You cannot prove you are competent.

You are not competent.

The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 part B Regulation 3 states -

Qualification and supervision3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.
(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.
(4) The requirements of paragraph (3) above shall not apply in respect of—
(a)the replacement of a hose or regulator on a portable or mobile space heater; or
(b)the replacement of a hose connecting a re-fillable cylinder to installation pipework.
(5) An approval given pursuant to paragraph (3) above (and any withdrawal of such approval) shall be in writing and notice of it shall be given to such persons and in such manner as the Health and Safety Executive considers appropriate.
(6) The employer of any person carrying out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel in the course of his employment shall ensure that such of the following provisions of these Regulations as impose duties upon that person and are for the time being in force are complied with by that person.
(7) No person shall falsely pretend to be a member of a class of persons required to be approved under paragraph (3) above.
(8) Notwithstanding sub-paragraph (b) of regulation 2(4), when a person is carrying out work in premises referred to in that sub-paragraph in relation to a gas fitting in a vehicle, vessel or caravan—
(a)paragraphs (1), (2) and (6) of this regulation shall be complied with as respects thereto; and
(b)he shall ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that the installation of the gas fittings and flues will not contravene the provisions of these Regulations when the gas fittings are connected to a gas supply,
except that this paragraph shall not apply where the person has reasonable grounds for believing that the vehicle, vessel or caravan will be first used for a purpose which when so used will exclude it from the application of these Regulations by virtue of sub-paragraphs (a), (c) or (e) of regulation 2(5).



This is why your threads get closed and WILL continue to be closed.

 

[dontknowitall]

You are not allowed inside any boiler!

I am not GSR and i do use guys with the right tickets to install boilers and the like. I do all other works - apart from the gas appliance install and any gas pipework!

The rest is fair play to any plumber who knows what they are doing.

If a pump/valve is outside of the boiler (ie: system boiler) then you can touch it. Otherwise its a GSR no no . . . . .

This is how I work as well. When I became a plumber GasSafe wrote to me wishing me well and warning me not to open any gas boiler as I'd be breaking the law.

Mattiker - you're more than welcome to try another forum.

I appreciate the diverter valve isn't gas and what you're wanting to know is probably fairly simple but the law is the law and, in my opinion, it's unfair to push the law abiding citizens on here and try and wrangle the information out of them.

 

[dontknowitall]

PS - I'm amazed I've manged to get a word in edgeways on one of these threads before they're closed!! :smile:

 

[TomLane]

I don't understand the confusion!

If it's gas & you're not gas safe registered, don't touch it!

Pretty simple to me, especially when it's a matter of life or death! (yes it is as extreme as that because if something goes wrong gas has a tendency to blow up!)

I wouldn't mess with something I wasn't 100% sure of, so don't see why others should be endangered by people who are not GSR's but think they can.!

 

[AWheating]

it should also been taken into account that a competent person (in this case a gsr engineer) changing a component that is not related to the combustion of the appliance will likely spot any safety issue's with the appliance when its fixed and working again. A non competent person may not and put somebody at risk by turning the appliance back on.

Wether or not the problem component is combustion related a full understanding of the appliance is important in many cases.

Ask yourself : if you was a gsr engineer would you want to give advise to somebody who has no proven competence? its not easy to say yes.

 

[snowhead]

I didn't and can't see the original question.

But, if the question was HOW to do something then the person asking is not competent to carry out that task unsupervised.

A competent person would have sufficient knowledge, training and Confidence to work out how to carry out any task in the relevant area of work.

 

[mattiker]

it should also been taken into account that a competent person (in this case a gsr engineer) changing a component that is not related to the combustion of the appliance will likely spot any safety issue's with the appliance when its fixed and working again. A non competent person may not and put somebody at risk by turning the appliance back on.

Wether or not the problem component is combustion related a full understanding of the appliance is important in many cases.

Ask yourself : if you was a gsr engineer would you want to give advise to somebody who has no proven competence? its not easy to say yes.

Appreciate what you are saying.

I didn't and can't see the original question.

But, if the question was HOW to do something then the person asking is not competent to carry out that task unsupervised.

A competent person would have sufficient knowledge, training and Confidence to work out how to carry out any task in the relevant area of work.

The original question was actually more WHAT than HOW (dont worry I'm not going to ask again). Even you guys use this forum for WHAT and HOW type questions - and although you might be GSR that doesn't automatically equate to competency (although I'd hope in most cases it does). I will say it again, I'm not interesting in breaking the law or taking risked with gas. Just interested in a healthy discussion. When I employ someone to fix my boiler I like to know what I'm paying them to do - i'm not stupid and I am quite capable of understanding the finer details of how a boiler works and I am actually genuinely interested to know. How many jobs have you done where you've ended up charging your customer more because you could not diagnose a problem correctly the first time around (be it your lack of experience, or just the nature of the problem) - being on the other side of the fence as the customer, I've heard many stories where a problem boilers have had lots of money thrown at them again and again until the root cause has been identified. So, as a wary customer and someone of a inquisitive nature I like to know as much as possible - and there is no law against this.

Thanks for you reply's and thanks croppie for allowing a discussion to take place.

 

[Rob Sale]

@Mattiker are you the guy off you tube with profile name Ultimatehandyman?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Why would you want to work on something without the full skillset where you could cause a seriouis issue??
I dont work on cars for the same reason so why do it??

It amazes me tho that people just presume your going to turn up at a boiler and never ever mis diagnose its like saying a taxi driver never takes a wrong turn or office worker never sending email to wrong person .

Thats why alot of engineers will say 'it could be this ' upto you then as a cust if you wish to go with advice

 

[Plumb Ugly]

Although technically there are some components on some boilers you could replace legally you are putting yourself in the middle of a minefield and its really not worth the potential problems. I cringe now when I think back to when I was a newly qualified gas engineer and about how little I really knew so for someone with no formal training or experience to work on a boiler even the nono gas critical components is deeply worrying to me. Honest opinion boilers like any gas appliance are just one of those things that should be left to a pro its not worth it to save a bit of cash no matter how skint you may be at the time. This isn't meant to be a go at anyone its just my view from what iv experienced and seen over the years

 

[Plumb Ugly]

On the topic of guys not being able to diagnose faults it does come down to experience. It requires different knowledge to install a boiler as it does to fix it and not eveyone does a lot of breakdown work they maybe prefer installing I know plenty of guys that this is the case with they are brilliant fitters but don't want to go near a breakdown and vice versa I hardly ever do in installs and am slow compared to them if I do. Speed comes with practice! It comes back to the original post really about everyman to his job some faults are easy to find others a nightmare and that's where the experience comes in. So what I'm saying is if you have a breakdown and want to be sure your engineer can find it as quick as possible look for a specialist such as Alpha man on here who knows alphas inside out

 

[gav8]

You are not allowed inside any boiler!

I am not GSR and i do use guys with the right tickets to install boilers and the like. I do all other works - apart from the gas appliance install and any gas pipework!

The rest is fair play to any plumber who knows what they are doing.

If a pump/valve is outside of the boiler (ie: system boiler) then you can touch it. Otherwise its a GSR no no . . . . .

This simply is not true, you are just spreading disinformation

 

[PlumbBobBob]

This simply is not true, you are just spreading disinformation

it may be disinformation but it is also common sense surely?

 

[lame plumber]

This simply is not true, you are just spreading disinformation

so having worked on a boiler in any form are you then able to comply with the following gas regs (the law as it is defined):

(9) Where a person performs work on a gas appliance he shall immediately thereafter examine
(a) the effectiveness of any flue;
(b) the supply of combustion air;
(c) its operating pressure or heat input or, where necessary, both;
(d) its operation so as to ensure its safe functioning, and forthwith take all reasonable practicable steps to notify any defect to the responsible person and, where different, the owner of the premises in which the appliance is situated or, where neither is reasonably practicable, in the case of an appliance supplied with liquefied petroleum gas, the supplier of gas to the appliance, or, in any other case, the transporter

and if you want to peruse the rest of the regulations: http://www.miketheboilerman.com/gsiur.htm

 

[Deleted member 25704]

Its an interesting discussion and I understand what the op is gettng at. Competence is difficult notion to pin down and it has elluded the medical profession to such an extent they no longer use the term.

However, from this thread, it is clear to see that competence and Gas Safe registration has become a kind of religion, with no one willing to question the concept or demand a more detailed definition. Having read the recent Gas Competence Review, it does not seem to have explained it satifactorily either. However, we can see the problems in store, just from posts on this forum.

For example:

Am looking to shadow/work with gas safe engineer in the EN postcode area at no cost to you. I am gas safe reg, new to trade, have own tools and annalyser, need the experience before I re-locate back home after working and re-training in the area.Would be interested in instalation and fault finding. Phone 07855814337.

Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...lic-forum/47387-experience.html#ixzz2JO15wXbc

The above person is GSR but contradicts this:

A competent person would have sufficient knowledge, training and Confidence to work out how to carry out any task in the relevant area of work.
Read more: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...aken-other-tradespersons-2.html#ixzz2JO1YnTeJ

 

[dontknowitall]

... How many jobs have you done where you've ended up charging your customer more because you could not diagnose a problem correctly the first time around (be it your lack of experience, or just the nature of the problem) ...

NONE!!

You will never gain a recommendation this way and recommendations are the best form of advertising.

We're not all rogues.

 

[lame plumber]

Competence is difficult notion to pin down QUOTE]

competence is a doddle to define in regard to working on gas systems. A person who has trained and passed the relevent assessments laid down by the relevant training authorities and then gains membership of the relevant registration body.

So if you have got your gas qualifications ie ccn1 and boiler or fire tickets and then join Gas Safe Register, you are deemed competant in the eyes of the law to work on fires and boilers and nothing else is deemed competent in this fine country (england and the various attached bits at present)

 

[gav8]

it may be disinformation but it is also common sense surely?

Depends really, anything unrelated to gas or airflow can be worked on by the DIYer, without any formal training.

Me and a few other lads are currently working on a load of videos that are going up on Youtube soonish, that is going to completely demystify Gas Plumbing and boiler repair, installation, inspection. We have already completed videos (just need editing) for things like Gas Valves, Pilot and Burners, Fans, Air Pressure Switches etc etc, on loads of different boilers, basically everything that a GSE will need to know, they are going to be made public though to get view count, plumbing videos on Youtube are very popular and currently there is nothing useful in relation to Gas.

The Internet truly is human kinds greatest leveler.

 

[TBServices]

Competence relating to gas refers to a member of a "competent persons scheme", in this case gas safe does it not?

 

[hammers4spanner]

Depends really, anything unrelated to gas or airflow can be worked on by the DIYer, without any formal training.

Me and a few other lads are currently working on a load of videos that are going up on Youtube soonish, that is going to completely demystify Gas Plumbing and boiler repair, installation, inspection. We have already completed videos (just need editing) for things like Gas Valves, Pilot and Burners, Fans, Air Pressure Switches etc etc, on loads of different boilers, basically everything that a GSE will need to know, they are going to be made public though to get view count, plumbing videos on Youtube are very popular and currently there is nothing useful in relation to Gas.

The Internet truly is human kinds greatest leveler.

nope the internet is business biggest danger

 

[gav8]

competence is a doddle to define in regard to working on gas systems. A person who has trained and passed the relevent assessments laid down by the relevant training authorities and then gains membership of the relevant registration body.

So if you have got your gas qualifications ie ccn1 and boiler or fire tickets and then join Gas Safe Register, you are deemed competant in the eyes of the law to work on fires and boilers and nothing else is deemed competent in this fine country (england and the various attached bits at present)

GSR is no measure of a persons competence in regards gas works, there are literally hundreds, possible thousands, that are on the GSR, but have not got a clue what they are doing, it really does need a massive overhaul, with exemptions for lifetime strikeouts from registering again for incompetent persons.

 

[hammers4spanner]

gav8 are you gsr registered?

 

[gav8]

nope the internet is business biggest danger

Care to expand on that? In the past few years people who are on GSR have uploaded hundreds of videos in relation to plumbing, TomPlum and Plumberparts, to name but two, they have covered everything that they teach you in college and then some, an average householder with a desire to learn, could literally watch all their videos and with a bit of practice, could easily be competent enough to fit a bathroom, re-pipe a house, install rads, water tanks etc etc

I can't see it effecting business that much, at the end of the day, if someone wants to learn, then that should be their right.

 

[Deleted member 25704]

GSR is no measure of a persons competence in regards gas works, there are literally hundreds, possible thousands, that are on the GSR, but have not got a clue what they are doing, it really does need a massive overhaul, with exemptions for lifetime strikeouts from registering again for incompetent persons.

I mentioned 'religion' of GSR earlier because few seem willing to question the rules, process or law.

As a long time plumber, I am also a scientist with an open mind.

As for the op's quest for 'root cause analysis' I suggest he reads Matthew Crawford's book 'shop craft is soul craft' which will explain better than I, that there is always something we do not know. Furthermore, getting diagnosis wrong, is all about experience and learning - I have got plenty of stuff wrong in my time, and will do in the future.

I suggest the op asks those in the medical profession if they ever get any diagnosis wrong...because root cause analysis has alluded them on many an occassion.