Flue for old atmospheric boiler

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Steve jones

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HI,

I had a new gas meter fitted a year ago and the installer said he wasn't happy with the flue. I have lost the report but would like to correct any faults.
The boiler is an old Thorn floor mounted atmospheric boiler which is located in the corner of a single story flat roofed garage which is attached to 2 floor house. Above the boiler you can see the bottom of the brick chimney which runs up the side of the house to roof level.
A flexible stainless flue liner runs from the top to the bottom of the chimney and connects directly to the boiler. So from the boiler to the ceiling in the garage where it enters the chimney there is an exposed unprotected section of flue liner.
Is this allowable in the gas regs? Should there be a solid section of flue from boiler to the ceiling and if so should it be double skinned.
Thanks very much for any advice
Steve
 
It’s a tricky one. Some pics might help however I think you are going to need to enlist a gas engineer with a little experience of old floor standing open flued appliances. Problem with meter fitters is that most of them are just that. They know how to purge and relight appliances and if they don’t they tend to whack a warning sticker on them until you get someone out with the full ticket
 
Steve jones said:
HI,

I had a new gas meter fitted a year ago and the installer said he wasn't happy with the flue. I have lost the report but would like to correct any faults.
The boiler is an old Thorn floor mounted atmospheric boiler which is located in the corner of a single story flat roofed garage which is attached to 2 floor house. Above the boiler you can see the bottom of the brick chimney which runs up the side of the house to roof level.
A flexible stainless flue liner runs from the top to the bottom of the chimney and connects directly to the boiler. So from the boiler to the ceiling in the garage where it enters the chimney there is an exposed unprotected section of flue liner.
Is this allowable in the gas regs? Should there be a solid section of flue from boiler to the ceiling and if so should it be double skinned.
Thanks very much for any advice
Steve
Click to expand...
Bluntly if the Gsr whom replaced ur meter did not cut you off but id you must not have been too worried at the time. However ...you and your family live in thus buiding and you must feel unsafe otherwise you would not have posted. We can give you advice based in the info you state. I think you should call out a GSR professional to advise you about your flue 1 st hand

and expect to pay ... afterall you do not want to wake up dead

Rob Foster aka centralheatking
 
I’d also prepare to not be able to flue this appliance anymore so if it’s wrong it may be new boiler time
 
The clue is in the name. Flue LINER. No part should be visible. However, without looking it up, I am 99.9% sure that, provided it passes all the safety tests, spillage and smoke, it is classed only as NCS.
To rectify, one would replace the liner with something like Selkirk IL, which is a twin wall flue.

If I was approached to rectify, I would be checking the requirements- it has been years since I fitted Selkirk.

TBH, the cost of rectification may be better spent on a new boiler
 
Non compliant, but agreed if it’s the wrong material used for flue then it could be AR
 
Thanks for the replies. I've tried to attach a picture showing the flue and boiler but it would seem like the section of flexible flue liner from the boiler to ceiling should be replaced with twin wall?

20190209_100003.jpg


20190209_095956.jpg
 
Should definitely be in solid flue.
Also the hole in the liner where they take analyser readings etc shouldn’t be there potential Products of combustion (POC) entering the room
 
Yep not right
 
It is not AR due to the bad material - IF it is pulling etc. Just because it looks crap does not nean it is AR. Being a very hot surface does not make it AR.

However, the hole, presumably for an FGA, probably does elevate it to AR.

WTF would someone do that?
 
firemant said:
It is not AR due to the bad material - IF it is pulling etc. Just because it looks crap does not nean it is AR. Being a very hot surface does not make it AR.

However, the hole, presumably for an FGA, probably does elevate it to AR.

WTF would someone do that?
Click to expand...
Agreed once again showing that it’s been in for xx number of years and No ones said a word or it’s never been serviced
 
I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.
 
Steve jones said:
I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.
Click to expand...
Please please stop right there. What you are proposing is illegal and dangerous. Do you not understand what an integral part a correctly installed flue is. It’s not in any way shape or form a DIY venture. The boiler shouldn’t even be on at the moment. Please seek the guidance of a properly trained gas engineer who can sort that mess.
 
Last edited:
Steve jones said:
I had the boiler fitted 40+ years ago and it has only ever needed 2 thermocouples hence my reluctance to change it.
I remember a guy sticking a screwdriver in the side of the flue to make a hole for his analyser. His argument being that the draw from the chimney wouldn't let any gas escape.
So if I fill the hole in is it OK?
I was thinking of getting a 1 metre length section of twin wall to fit to the top of the boiler, then connect a 45 degree bend and then a connector to connect to the flexi flue liner ie so most of the flue in the garage is twin wall. Hopefully this will keep any further meter installers happy?
On another subject the 88 year old lady next door had a new boiler fitted by the gas board 5 years ago and also pays for an annual service/callout plan. Last year when it was serviced they frightened her by saying that it was getting a bit old, parts maybe hard to find and she could be left without heating. They said the same about the gas fire in the front room. They made her pay best part of £10,000 for another new boiler and a fire. Then in winter during a cold spell the boiler broke so she rang the gas board and they said they were too busy to take any more calls. I had a look and the condensate pipe was frozen.
This is the reason I try and keep my old reliable boiler going for as long as possible.
Click to expand...
Ps nobody “made” her pay for it. £10000 is a lot but come on she could’ve shopped around for quotes. Once again you make it sound like all installers are out to fleece you. No responsible engineer is going to tell you to change and upgrade for fun. The reluctance to upgrade to save a few quid could prove horrendously expensive with someone’s life. Don’t be a statistic please.
 
Riley said:
Please please stop right there. What you are proposing is illegal and dangerous. Do you not understand what an integral part a correctly installed flue is. It’s not in any way shape or form a DIY venture. The boiler shouldn’t even be on at the moment. Please seek the guidance of a properly trained gas engineer who can sort that mess.
Click to expand...
Ok, I'll make some enquiries next week and I'm sorry if the story about my neighbour caused any offence to you guys. I appreciate all your comments
 
firemant said:
Wrong. NCS DOES exist, you just do not note it on a Warning Label. You can (and I do/would) nite them on my Invoice/Report sheet.

Are you under the impression that all ex NCS situations are AR?
Click to expand...

During my recent re-assessments it was told to me that ncs wasn’t a ‘thing’ anymore however during a recent convo with another gsr engineer it appears it is. Just isn’t viable on a form as such so I’m wrong in this instance; apologises!
 
DXCross said:
During my recent re-assessments it was told to me that ncs wasn’t a ‘thing’ anymore however during a recent convo with another gsr engineer it appears it is. Just isn’t viable on a form as such so I’m wrong in this instance; apologises!
Click to expand...
From my assessment I was told ncs was done away with too, without double checking I'm sure we now have 2 categories of AR, one category was dealt with by just filling out a form to notify the customer which basically replaced ncs and the other where we would have to turn the appliance off, fill out a form and attach a label.
 
Craig Watson said:
From my assessment I was told ncs was done away with too, without double checking I'm sure we now have 2 categories of AR, one category was dealt with by just filling out a form to notify the customer which basically replaced ncs and the other where we would have to turn the appliance off, fill out a form and attach a label.
Click to expand...


We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.
 
Pickwickpick said:
We've been taught that they have got rid of NCS and things that would have fallen under that category are to be called none compliant. We should inform the customer of it but there are no stickers to leave/forms to fill out.
Click to expand...
Yeah your right, just checked and, you can still notify in writing if you wish but not as part of a warning notice, so verbally is fine.
 
Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks
 
Ncs still exists just note it down but do nothing about it no labels nothing
 
DXCross said:
Hopefully not high jacking the thread too much but seems a bit backwards in my opinion. Gas safe really didn’t relay the information too well?
Either way it’s a learning curve and happy to be corrected. Thanks
Click to expand...
Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.
 
Craig Watson said:
Don't think it's an issue with gas safe relaying the info, it's probably people (like me) forgetting.

I haven't had to use the warning system since qualifying so I guess it's easily done.
Click to expand...

What is the process for Gas Safe relaying such information? Our tutors told us they put out technical bulletins on their website, do they also post or email them out, or do they have an equivalent of a trade magazine?
 
Thought that might be the case, its bonkers as that would be a really easy win for them, especially at a time when they're under the spotlight (iirc only last November Gas Safe were on Watchdog).
 
It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things
 
Riley said:
It’s wrong it’s another contract to the highest bidder who then have no obligation to actually clean up the industry. That’s the problem with all these government tendered contracts there’s never any incentive be it financial or punitive to complete on time or actually achieve things
Click to expand...


Yep that's true, but even when they have done contracts with so incentives/disincentives (e.g. probation services) its still not driven up standards to an acceptable level. Part of the problem is there's literally only a handful of companies that are large enough to take on these big contracts, so you end up with a quasi monopoly on the go. Capita didn't get the nickname Crapita for no reason, yet they keep being awarded government contracts... I also personally think that when it comes to regulatory bodies there should be no profit motive involved.
 
That would definitely help, at least it would make it harder for them to treat tradesmen, who have no choice but to register, as cashcows. Not convinced it would help from an enforcement & raising standards perspective however.
 
Small steps I think mate it’ll start with everyone going with the cheapest option then as the punters start to see what’s on offer it will come down to the company that offer the best service
 
My concern with that set up is that if there are multiple bodies, each will have slightly different takes on enforcement, rules&regs, CPD... it will muddy the water further imo.

I think considering the public safety aspect, the government should be setting aside a budget that is adequate to ensure that a) there is significantly more enforcement/inspection b) there is good quality support for gas engineers, including training/education & decent communication (it wouldn't be that hard or expensive for them to email/post tech bulletins when they come out to everyone on the register) rather than just a reassessment every 5yrs. It would take some political will however, which as always is sadly going to take a major catastrophe to kick them into doing something.
 
Problem is mate that at the moment there is zero enforcement. Multiple organisations all following the same remit could at least prove they have teeth or not
 
Yep, totally agree about current state of affairs, just think the fastest, fairest & most effective way to changing it would be a decent budget provided by the government that is a) solely for enforcement b) has to be used c) effectiveness assessed (would be good to have input from gas safe members on this) with loss of contract if not adequate.

But it would take a lot of political will, with that missing, then yes your option is probably the next best.

Any idea how sparks feel about their multi body set up?
 
Sorry bit harsh but if it is working correctly Craig, as we have to assume it has been for all this time it can't be ID.
It would have to be spilling for that.

And for those who think it should be condemned because of how hot the liner is likely to get clearly have not touched a nice bit of single wall stainless or enamelled especially on a solid fuel appliance !!
 
Craig Watson said:
What's with the dislike @chris watkins :(
Click to expand...

Probably because you clearly have not read the procedure.
Personally, if you were to overstep your remit, and wrongly condemn my boiler, depriving my family of heat and hot water, I would be looking at suing you.

EDIT: Composed and posted this as Chris was doing so. Too many guys have no real understanding of the basics.
 
Different point of view:

What's the efficiency on the boiler? 50%

I guess your gas bill is about £800/year? That's £400 up the chimney a year.

A new system boiler in the same spot with a powerflush, controls etc and a 12 year guarantee would cost ???

Do the math. How long until it pays for itself?
 
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