Feed And return Valves position

[braveheartpk]

I have Termet Unico 24 bolier with Maktek(Turkish heaters) and Pex piping.Mains are 22mm and the feeding and return pipes are 15mm.

The feeding and return pipes are attached to the same side of radiator.According to the company which installed radiators, the upper one is feeding pipe while the lower on the same side is return.Is this setting fine?Which valve/pipe should heat first when the boiler is switched on?The upper one(feeding pipe) or the lower one(return)?

And how do I know which is feeding pipe and which is return pipe if I have to check myself now that everything is concealed in the floor regardless of what the compny says?

What are the different ways of attaching feeding and return pipes to the radiators?Which is the most effieicent way?

 

[jtsplumbing]

1st never heard of this boiler ! are you talking about the flow / return pipes from the boiler to the heaters ? if this is 15mm from boiler it will struggle to get rid of heat, are you saying that the connections to the radiators are on the top & bottom on the same side ?
By the sounds of it you have no idea of what is going on or how systems work! do you know what you are doing?? :thumbs_down:

 

[jtsplumbing]

Just look`d up this boiler made in Poland, what is your location ??

 

[braveheartpk]

1st never heard of this boiler ! are you talking about the flow / return pipes from the boiler to the heaters ? if this is 15mm from boiler it will struggle to get rid of heat, are you saying that the connections to the radiators are on the top & bottom on the same side ?
By the sounds of it you have no idea of what is going on or how systems work! do you know what you are doing?? :thumbs_down:

I live in Pakistan.Termet is Polish boiler.

Yes I am asking about the flow and return pipes from the boiler to the heaters.
The main line is 22mm in diameter and the lines coming to and going from radiators to the main flow and return lines are 15mm in diameter(this is irrelevant of the problem i am facing , but i just mentioned the diameter of pipes).
And yes the flow and the return pipes are on the same side of the radiators on the top and bottom.

And the real problem I am facing is that on first floor the top pipe gets heat first when I switch on the boiler and open radiator valves but on the ground floor the bottom pipe gets heat first when the boiler is turned on and the valves are opened.Why is it so?The plumber who installed the boiler says that the connections are reversed on ground floor but I dont think so this is the reason.

 

[jtsplumbing]

To answer one of your questions the best way to connect the heaters is one on each end at the bottom, if both connections on same side heat will stuggle to pass through radiator, flow pipe will be the one that gets hot first, so it is reversed on ground floor !

 

[braveheartpk]

To answer one of your questions the best way to connect the heaters is one on each end at the bottom, if both connections on same side heat will stuggle to pass through radiator, flow pipe will be the one that gets hot first, so it is reversed on ground floor !

Can there be any other reason for this other than reversed connection?Because I dont think so that the connections are reversed.The pump speed is at two.And here the persons installing this system dont know much about it.For example they have no idea of radiators balancing and also they just install both the valves of wheelhead type and there is no concept of lockshield valve.Is lockshield valve on the return better than the wheelhead?It must be as I have read but what do you say?

 

[ManchesterGas]

I'd say that you would be better to re pipe and have both flow and return at the bottom of each radiator if this is possible, 1 on each side of the radiator. If not then flow at the top and return at the bottom. flow will always get hot first. I have never seen a radiator piped the way yours are. I have seen radaitors fitted with the flow at the top and return at the opposite bottom corner. I don't think this is as efficent as with both pipes at the bottom.

 

[braveheartpk]

I'd say that you would be better to re pipe and have both flow and return at the bottom of each radiator if this is possible, 1 on each side of the radiator. If not then flow at the top and return at the bottom. flow will always get hot first. I have never seen a radiator piped the way yours are. I have seen radaitors fitted with the flow at the top and return at the opposite bottom corner. I don't think this is as efficent as with both pipes at the bottom.

Thanks for the reply.

You mean Efficiency in terms of space heating or efficiency in terms of natural gas usage?And how this is affected by flow and return on the same side at top and bottom respectively?

And Can there be any other reason for return pipe getting hot before flow pipe other than reversed connection?

 

[PlumbBobBob]

as you say yourself the people who fitted your system don't know what they are doing. the down stairs radiators have been piped up in reverse to the upstairs radiators. as 500 said best way forward with your system is to repipe all of your rads flow and return at the bottom.

 

[jtsplumbing]

If you keep flow & return on same side of radiator the water will run top to bottom and may not heat the whole of the radiator, that will make it inefficent, and boiler burn more gas, As for your other question yes if they have link`d flow and return pipes together, Do you not have any one who knows about heating systems ?? and how to install them ??
Looks like I could make a fortune by moveing to Pakistan and opening up as a consulant or running a training school!! :arabia:

 

[tamz]

There is nothing wrong with piping rads TBSE in fact that is the configuration the heat outputs of rads are based on in accordance with BS442.

However if the flow and returns are crossed with the flow entering the bottom the rad will only half heat. That is the problem you are having with your downstairs rads The main flow and return pipes need to be swapped over somewhere before they drop to the ground floor and it will then work perfectly.

Lock shield and wheel head valves are different versions of the same thing. The valves usually come with 2 heads. One wheel head handle, usually fitted, and a loose lockshield plain cap. The purpose of the lockshield cap is after the valve is adjusted when balancing the system the cap is put on so the valve cannot be adjusted or moved without the use of tools so deters unauthorised movement.

 

[rodders]

There is nothing wrong with piping rads TBSE in fact that is the configuration the heat outputs of rads are based on in accordance with BS442.

However if the flow and returns are crossed with the flow entering the bottom the rad will only half heat. That is the problem you are having with your downstairs rads The main flow and return pipes need to be swapped over somewhere before they drop to the ground floor and it will then work perfectly.

Lock shield and wheel head valves are different versions of the same thing. The valves usually come with 2 heads. One wheel head handle, usually fitted, and a loose lockshield plain cap. The purpose of the lockshield cap is after the valve is adjusted when balancing the system the cap is put on so the valve cannot be adjusted or moved without the use of tools so deters unauthorised movement.

I agree with this, but would say its better to pipe TBOE for efficiency (and ease of adjusting TRV if user is old or disabled) and BOE for aesthetics. Also it's BS EN 442.

Cheers

 

[tamz]

Also it's BS EN 442.

I know :smile:

I agree with you on TBOE being the most efficient but TBSE works well enough.

TBOE won't work either if piped with the flow at the bottom.

 

[rodders]

I agree with you on TBOE being the most efficient but TBSE works well enough.

TBOE won't work either if piped with the flow at the bottom.

True!

 

[braveheartpk]

If you keep flow & return on same side of radiator the water will run top to bottom and may not heat the whole of the radiator, that will make it inefficent, and boiler burn more gas, As for your other question yes if they have link`d flow and return pipes together, Do you not have any one who knows about heating systems ?? and how to install them ??
Looks like I could make a fortune by moveing to Pakistan and opening up as a consulant or running a training school!! :arabia:

Okay.But the first floor radiators are evenly hot with the same piping that is flow on top and return on bottom same side.
And I have been to the UK for three months in 2006 and there I saw this central heating system there for the first time and I remember the flow and return pipes were not on same side.

And you know there are many firms now installing these systems here in pakistan but they dont know even the basic things about these.For example they do not install lockshield valves and they have no idea of balancing the rads and so on.And yes may be you can make a fortune here hahahaha...

AND Can you state here different acceptable and standard combinations of Flow and Return pipes on rads?

 

[braveheartpk]

There is nothing wrong with piping rads TBSE in fact that is the configuration the heat outputs of rads are based on in accordance with BS442.

However if the flow and returns are crossed with the flow entering the bottom the rad will only half heat. That is the problem you are having with your downstairs rads The main flow and return pipes need to be swapped over somewhere before they drop to the ground floor and it will then work perfectly.

Lock shield and wheel head valves are different versions of the same thing. The valves usually come with 2 heads. One wheel head handle, usually fitted, and a loose lockshield plain cap. The purpose of the lockshield cap is after the valve is adjusted when balancing the system the cap is put on so the valve cannot be adjusted or moved without the use of tools so deters unauthorised movement.

Whats this BS 442?My radiators are Maktek, Made in Turkey.And I took some photographs of the piping during the construction phase of my house and I think the piping on ground floor is not reversed.I mean flow is at top and return is at bottom same end.So any other reason for half heating of ground floor radiators.And the ground floor radiators are hot at top and just warm at bottom.

 

[braveheartpk]

as you say yourself the people who fitted your system don't know what they are doing. the down stairs radiators have been piped up in reverse to the upstairs radiators. as 500 said best way forward with your system is to repipe all of your rads flow and return at the bottom.

What are the different acceptable and standard piping combinations for radiators?And why top(flow) and bottom(return) same end is inefficient?

 

[braveheartpk]

Thanks to all for your precious suggestions.The problem was actually in ground floor supply.And it was corrected.Now in all radiators the flow is at the top and return is at the bottom same side.

 

[kirkgas]

To answer one of your questions the best way to connect the heaters is one on each end at the bottom, if both connections on same side heat will stuggle to pass through radiator, flow pipe will be the one that gets hot first, so it is reversed on ground floor !

thats not necessarily true, loads of system designs have the flow at the top and return at the bottom (on opposite sides) look at a radiator sizing chart where it is talking about output figures, the sometime quote TBOE connections (which is Top, Bottom Opposite Ends) and a certain mean water temp,