External frost stat is in action or not doing anything?

[Jurgenjay]

The divisions on the cylinder stat are extraordinary at 6.66C/division just to create more of a challenge when setting it?.

Anyway, to test the stat, just turn it down and see if the HW cylinder zone valve closes while programmed on.

Exactly! Not sure why they designed and produced the stat like that!

Your solution to test the stat proved right! A few months ago, the very first time when we found the boiler was still firing even the programmer was off, the zone valve for hot water was opened, by chance, we turned the stat of the cylinder smaller, and saw the zone valve closed and boiler stopped, so at the time we could see the stat temperature setting seems working.
(then next time when it happened again: zone valve for hot water opened & boiler fired outside of programmer setting period, even if we turned the stat of cylinder smaller, boiler still continued to fire, so second time maybe zone valve issue.)

 

[SJB060685]

Yes legionella bacteria is killed off at 60°c. Yes set boiler control stat to that but no higher. The dew point for natural gas boilers starts at around 57°c, so your return water temperature needs to be that or lower, the lower the return temperature the greater the condensing. You also get greater condensing when the boiler is at part load but I won’t go into that now. If I was designing your system I would of done things a lot differently but that’s irrelevant now. As John says run his test to see what happens to the HW valve.

 

[SJB060685]

Depends on how it’s wired. If the frost stat by passes the cylinder stat it will hold the valve open,

 

[John.g]

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

I got your point for how to turn and note the temperatures. That will have 3 temperatures?
i.e. 1st temperature: turn down when zone valve closes; 2nd temperature: turn up when zone valve opens; 3rd turn down again to close the zone valve.
So three temperature notes---to test what? Sorry I don't understand this?

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.---is attached photo good to see? (if not, I can take another one)

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes legionella bacteria is killed off at 60°c. Yes set boiler control stat to that but no higher. The dew point for natural gas boilers starts at around 57°c, so your return water temperature needs to be that or lower, the lower the return temperature the greater the condensing. You also get greater condensing when the boiler is at part load but I won’t go into that now. If I was designing your system I would of done things a lot differently but that’s irrelevant now. As John says run his test to see what happens to the HW valve.

so I am going to turn the boiler temperature control smaller, something between level 4--5, about 71°c, or 70°c or 72°c.
My installed system has caused me so much trouble..... I wonder how you would design it! Anything could be better!
The worse thing is the boss/gas engineer of my system does NOT know any of those questions I raised here........

 

[Jurgenjay]

Depends on how it’s wired. If the frost stat by passes the cylinder stat it will hold the valve open,

Your this comment I think could explain for what happened in the morning on 21st of Jan when it was very cold, my boiler started to fire for 4 hours outside of the programmer setting time.

 

[SJB060685]

I would set the boiler control knob to 5 which is a flow temp of 74°c ish.
If I was designing your system I would of designed a low temperature system with a boiler with good modulation and PDHW (priority domestic hot water) on either weather compensation or load compensation, that depends on a few things There are lots of advantages to low temperature heating systems. Less fuel consumption, better condensing, greater levels of comfort and cleaner air due to lower convection currents, better for the environment and so on. It is alarming that the boss of the company who installed this system is not fully clued up.

 

[John.g]

I got your point for how to turn and note the temperatures. That will have 3 temperatures?
i.e. 1st temperature: turn down when zone valve closes; 2nd temperature: turn up when zone valve opens; 3rd turn down again to close the zone valve.
So three temperature notes---to test what? Sorry I don't understand this?

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.---is attached photo good to see? (if not, I can take another one)

I just want to ensure that the valve closes, re opens and closes again and also to check the cylinder stat differential (hysteresis) temperature between cut in and cut out.
I think the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from your photo.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I would set the boiler control knob to 5 which is a flow temp of 74°c ish.
If I was designing your system I would of designed a low temperature system with a boiler with good modulation and PDHW (priority domestic hot water) on either weather compensation or load compensation, that depends on a few things There are lots of advantages to low temperature heating systems. Less fuel consumption, better condensing, greater levels of comfort and cleaner air due to lower convection currents, better for the environment and so on. It is alarming that the boss of the company who installed this system is not fully clued up.

Right now it is 74°c(according to photo2), please see attached photo1. The stat on cylinder is between 60°c--65°c, something around 61°c?
So based on your theory should be 10°c higher, I should turn the boiler heating setting to around 71°c? (Turn to level 4 direction).

Your design looks good! But it is late now....

The boss's name and company are registered on the Wocester Bosch boiler website, so I picked him who should know the boiler system in theory!
The actual installation was done by his team member who left him, the boss did the commission.
But since I moved in, LOTS of problems happened! I can list 10 big issues here....
Worse of all, he came and checked, but he could not understand where/why gone wrong, I had to spend plenty of time here to get consultancy! I learn from you guys and got clearer answers than the one I paid over 5K for the system!!

 

[SJB060685]

Yes leave at those settings you mentioned above. Note if the rads struggle to get to temperature during extreme weather you may need to increase the flow temperature knob a bit but all these things should be considered during design stage. I’m not a fan of Worcester boilers personally but your system is installed now.
Most of us engineers on here are happy to help if possible. Myself and John here are passionate about what we do and if we can help and educate a little we will.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I just want to ensure that the valve closes, re opens and closes again and also to check the cylinder stat differential (hysteresis) temperature between cut in and cut out.
I think the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from your photo.

Re cylinder stat, with HW programmed on, turn stat down and note what its setting is, (check zone valve closing), turn stat back up slowly to reopen the zone valve, note the setting then turn it back down again to close the zone valve, gain note the setting, there should be ~ 5/8C differential.

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

Hi John, following your advice I have tested the stat and noted down each time temperatures. Please see below:

Photo1: turned down stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was closing. The temperature is around 48°C;
Photo2: Turned up stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was opening. The temperature is around 58°C;
Photo3: turned down stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was closing. The temperature is around 48°C;
Photo4: Turned up stat till heard "click", the zone valve for hot water was opening. The temperature is around 58°C;

So, these mean the cylinder stat is working with no issue?

Thank you!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Also see if the cylinder stat is located above the coil return from the cylinder.

Hi John,
Yesterday the photo maybe not clear, I have taken again for you to see if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder?
Thanks again!

 

[John.g]

Everything looks good to me

 

[Jurgenjay]

Everything looks good to me

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes leave at those settings you mentioned above. Note if the rads struggle to get to temperature during extreme weather you may need to increase the flow temperature knob a bit but all these things should be considered during design stage. I’m not a fan of Worcester boilers personally but your system is installed now.
Most of us engineers on here are happy to help if possible. Myself and John here are passionate about what we do and if we can help and educate a little we will.

Many thanks!
Really appreciate your input and John's!
As said, I know more from you guys online then the so called gas engineer I paid thousands of pounds!

 

[SJB060685]

Many thanks!
Really appreciate your input and John's!
As said, I know more from you guys online then the so called gas engineer I paid thousands of pounds!

Just promise us you won’t have him/them return. It’s alarming someone who advertises this line of work doesn’t even know the basics. I would seek advice from another G3 installed engineer as well as it would appear the frost stat is by passing the cylinder stat and controlling the HW zone valve. I’m not convinced that’s legal, logic would say not but I’m not currently G3 certified.

 

[John.g]

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

Everything---You mean both "stat on cylinder" and "if the cylinder stat is above coil return from the cylinder" are good?

Do you know "only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained"---if this is an issue?

Thanks!

Yes, the stat position and stat operation are fine. The combination valve is often/normally mounted low down, you don't need a step ladder then to service it?

 

[Jurgenjay]

Yes, the stat position and stat operation are fine. The combination valve is often/normally mounted low down, you don't need a step ladder then to service it?

Thanks John!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Just promise us you won’t have him/them return. It’s alarming someone who advertises this line of work doesn’t even know the basics. I would seek advice from another G3 installed engineer as well as it would appear the frost stat is by passing the cylinder stat and controlling the HW zone valve. I’m not convinced that’s legal, logic would say not but I’m not currently G3 certified.

Yes, you are right that something for sure is wrong with my HW control, i.e. zone valve for HW never closed & burner light is off/on every couple of minutes, blue light is always on, even if the programmer is on for a long time---as long as programmer is on.

And you help me more make decision that not to call him for the warranty---my new boiler only a few months installed, it is well in the warranty period, but what is the point calling him if he does NOT know how the boiler is working?!
How could he be Woecster Bosch registered engineer then??
And he has not given me unvented cylinder system installation certificate as he is not G3 qualified I just found out...

 

[SJB060685]

Providing the boiler has been installed to manufacturers instructions then Worcester themselves would send an engineer should there be a warranty call. It’s just disheartening when a customer puts their faith in a guy/firm and pays thousands in your case for a system less than ideal. The old saying “a good engineer is an engineer for life” holds true. Hopefully you can find someone more qualified in the future.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Providing the boiler has been installed to manufacturers instructions then Worcester themselves would send an engineer should there be a warranty call. It’s just disheartening when a customer puts their faith in a guy/firm and pays thousands in your case for a system less than ideal. The old saying “a good engineer is an engineer for life” holds true. Hopefully you can find someone more qualified in the future.

Wocester Bosch did send an engineer came to check and confirmed to me: There's nothing wrong with boiler itself, it is the control or wiring issue, you should call your installer....
Not only boiler, but also newly installed radiators not all hot (half hot, half warm or cold); underground pipes bursted; bathroom pipe bursted, radiator leaked etc. all problems were done by this same guy!

 

[SJB060685]

Jesus. He sounds more like a handyman than a certified heating engineer.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Jesus. He sounds more like a handyman than a certified heating engineer.

He is registered on Worcester Bosch website, and he is on Checktrade but no review since last year August (just by time finished my boiler system installation).
For the questions I raised here (you may search this site I raised a lot of questions) he could not answer or sort out, thus I had to try to find answers myself.
He had a team member who did the boiler installation but left him now, I am not sure whether this is the reason he does not know the boiler because all boiler installation works were done by someone else?

During the boiler installation and after it, the boiler leaked water in garage!
Then upstairs all new radiators leaked water which flooded the house;
then one individual radiator leaked again which could not stop the water which resulted in downstairs celling with water dropped;
then underground pipes bursted which resulted in newly fitted marble floor was hammered and dug a hole;
then bathroom pipe bursted which made newly decorated house celling been flooded;

I have to stop otherwise it could be a further long list to go.....

 

[SJB060685]

I hope you claimed off his insurance!?

 

[Jurgenjay]

I hope you claimed off his insurance!?

Thank you for this reminder!
I didn't know I could claim off his insurance?
I had photos of those leaks and damage, but I need to prove it was his fault? Or simply because he did all the installation he just should be responsible for those damage? And I need to prove the damage figures?
I may just be too naive or kind, he didn't take me serious, for example, the HW zone valve never closed issue, I texted him and called him many times, he was not answering...

 

[SJB060685]

I’m not too clued up on the legal side of things. I think @king of pipes may be able to advise there. If you have sufficient evidence and invoices for the repairs then I would definitely look further into it. No business wants to have a claim made against their insurance but it’s there for reasons just like this. We only ever had one claim made against us, which turned out to be a manufacturers fault and subsequently dropped against us. My concern is though does this person even have insurance? I’d imagine if he’s gas certified then he must do.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I’m not too clued up on the legal side of things. I think @king of pipes may be able to advise there. If you have sufficient evidence and invoices for the repairs then I would definitely look further into it. No business wants to have a claim made against their insurance but it’s there for reasons just like this. We only ever had one claim made against us, which turned out to be a manufacturers fault and subsequently dropped against us. My concern is though does this person even have insurance? I’d imagine if he’s gas certified then he must do.

I checked his Checktrade about his insurance: "Current: Verified 20/03/2020." So he has but verified 2 year ago?
If @king of pipes could provide some advice that would be great!

Many thanks for your advice & reminder and all! Very helpful!

 

[SJB060685]

I would never use a place like Checktrade etc to generate income, nor would I look in places like that for an installer. Generally speaking a good trades person doesn’t need to advertise, if their work is top quality word of mouth is all they need, apart from van sign writing. Give King a chance to respond. He’s a frequent contributor but you may not get a response until tomorrow. I believe his wife works in legal sector so any advice he gives is sound advise.

 

[Jurgenjay]

I would never use a place like Checktrade etc to generate income, nor would I look in places like that for an installer. Generally speaking a good trades person doesn’t need to advertise, if their work is top quality word of mouth is all they need, apart from van sign writing. Give King a chance to respond. He’s a frequent contributor but you may not get a response until tomorrow. I believe his wife works in legal sector so any advice he gives is sound advise.

I agree with you in terms of really good engineers do not need advertisement as they are very busy with recommended works already!
This so called engineer caused me so much trouble e.g. he cut downstairs hot water pipe and not come back to re-pipe it, leave downstairs toilet and utility no hot water for the whole winter! My 4 year little girl every time before meal refuses to wash hand as it is too cold so we have to take her upstairs....

I will look forward to @king of pipes help! As I can list 10 big issue like above mentioned one that caused by this engineer, but no clue how/what to do in what ways...

Thanks again mate! You are actually helping real engineers to get more jobs rather than this kind of cowboy do advertisement and take jobs that they are not competent to do!

 

[king of pipes]

Good morning Jurgenjay I have studied your posts and it's obvious that you have been treated terribly, unfortunately this seems to happen quite frequently with the shortage of good tradesmen and the ease that someone can set up as a so called installer , the sign of a good tradesmen is what he does when something does go wrong in this case it seems very little.
Now what are your options ? You could go down the small claims court route but it will be a lengthy drawn out process which alot of people don't have the stomache for and end up giving up.
You could complain to trading standards no reputable company want to be investigated by them as it will blacken their name,
The company you employed has a duty of care to carry out the work as agreed the job was either carried out by a subcontractor or now ex employee but the responsibility lies with the owner of that company.
Was a detailed estimate or quote provided stating what work was to be carried out ?
What is the relationship like between yourself and the company ? has it broken down and you are being ignored ?
The bottom line is do want this company in your property? you've had a bad experience and at best the work will be patched up and cause issues for you at a later date , legally you need to give him the opportunity to correct the work but it very rarely ends well as you have no confidence in him and he probably sees you as a irritation.
The best outcome would probably be to employ a reputable company to correct the poor installation and try to recover a percentage of the cost from the original company, it really comes down to whether you have the time and are willing to perdue this individual relentlessly it will take a long time with no guarantee of a good outcome. Regards kop

 

[Jurgenjay]

Good morning Jurgenjay I have studied your posts and it's obvious that you have been treated terribly, unfortunately this seems to happen quite frequently with the shortage of good tradesmen and the ease that someone can set up as a so called installer , the sign of a good tradesmen is what he does when something does go wrong in this case it seems very little.
Now what are your options ? You could go down the small claims court route but it will be a lengthy drawn out process which alot of people don't have the stomache for and end up giving up.
You could complain to trading standards no reputable company want to be investigated by them as it will blacken their name,
The company you employed has a duty of care to carry out the work as agreed the job was either carried out by a subcontractor or now ex employee but the responsibility lies with the owner of that company.
Was a detailed estimate or quote provided stating what work was to be carried out ?
What is the relationship like between yourself and the company ? has it broken down and you are being ignored ?
The bottom line is do want this company in your property? you've had a bad experience and at best the work will be patched up and cause issues for you at a later date , legally you need to give him the opportunity to correct the work but it very rarely ends well as you have no confidence in him and he probably sees you as a irritation.
The best outcome would probably be to employ a reputable company to correct the poor installation and try to recover a percentage of the cost from the original company, it really comes down to whether you have the time and are willing to perdue this individual relentlessly it will take a long time with no guarantee of a good outcome. Regards kop

Thank you very much King of Pipes for your reply!
I agree with you that this kind of situation happens quite frequently is because "shortage of good tradesmen and the ease that someone can set up as a so called installer".
This results in homeowners suffer and real good tradesmen have less jobs...
But worst of all is, no such an authority or institution in place to check the works done and judge how bad it is, you will have to, as you said, to sue the bad tradesman to court which will take time and end up giving up---this is the reason the bad job done happens frequently and bad tradesman are so common to be encountered.

I do have a detailed estimate or quote, now the thing is, all the works done have issues, radiators not all hot, radiators leaked, pipes bursted, boiler issues etc.

The relationship is tricky to say, as this tradesman is tricky, he never said "NO, I don't want to come or don't want to be responsible", but he just not pick the phone or rely messages, if you call him twice every day 5 days a week, he or his wife might call back once asked: what's going on?, then he said he has priority as old women no heating and no hot water, he has to take care of them first.---every time same excuse: old people no HW no CH.

He has been dragging the issues without trying to sort out, he is either : not willing to waste time on rectifying the issues (as I paid him all the money on the quote) or, he really does not know how to do the boiler.
Either way, it is really bad!