Boiler install at the weekend. Cheapest chemicals and TRV's?

[armyash]

Hi guys I have a combi swap to do at the weekend (for my landlord). He wants the cheapest of everything, what are the cheapest cleaning chemicals and inhibitor available and also will be using cheapest TRV's I can get. Any recommendations?

Thanks

 

[Masood]

No Nonsense stuff from Screwfix. Cheaper still if you have a Plumbfix membership. Don't know if it's any good, but it's cheap...

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Most merchants do trv and l/s packs and inhibitor/cleaner deals, they can save money sometimes....saying that a lot also do boiler flue chemicals and valves as a bundle.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Agreed, no nonsense stuff or if you have an account at the merchants, pts own brand etc

 

[armyash]

Thanks, will have a look now.

 

[Killy Bing]

I think Williams do a cheap heat therm rad set ?

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Williams calshot chems £6.95 + vat

 

[AWheating]

the plumfix NN chemicals are cheap, look like fernox bottles...... it would be interesting to know who meks them. sentinel chems are quite cheap at screw/plumbfix at the mo also. you can get a trv for about £5 from both screwfix and toolstation, probably the cheapest your gunna find.

 

[Ray Stafford]

If you are putting a filter in, magnaclean have a variety of offers of filter packaged with free chemicals.

 

[SimonG]

I bought two bottles of triple x from hwos for 6.25 a bottle

 

[Ray Stafford]

Our aqueous logic is probably our cheapest, but don't want to post prices in open forum.

Be careful of the very cheapest trvs. We had one recently, also sold by one of the leading *cough* Internet suppliers under a different name. It was touted as a bi-directional valve, but if you put it on an open vent system on the wrong end, it would bang like a privy door when the plague is in town.

Had to take it off the shelf in the end.

 

[armyash]

Will not be putting in a filter but that sounds like a good deal.

 

[Killy Bing]

Williams co map is my budget trv

 

[armyash]

I bought two bottles of triple x from hwos for 6.25 a bottle

Just having a look on HWOS website now, never seen it before. some good prices on there.

 

[Kev the gas]

I spoke with a Fernox rep last night who said an "A " Rated condensing boiler could be de-rated to "C/D" within weeks of installation
without the use of a quality inhibitor, due to scale.

 

[SimonG]

I spoke with a Fernox rep last night who said an "A " Rated condensing boiler could be de-rated to "C/D" within weeks of installation
without the use of a quality inhibitor, due to scale.

Maybe because he was the fernox rep?

 

[armyash]

I spoke with a Fernox rep last night who said an "A " Rated condensing boiler could be de-rated to "C/D" within weeks of installation
without the use of a quality inhibitor, due to scale.

That's interesting and good to know but I doubt my landlord will be interested.

 

[Kyle87]

I'd not bother with the trv's and make sure you put a filter in if its to be cost effective.

Surely the saving in heating bills isn't going to off set the cost of all the things that go wrong with the boiler because you don't have a filter to protect it.

 

[Ermintrude]

Bulldog trv & locksheild £6. Not much more budget than that tbh!

 

[cava55]

Cheap filter screwfix Nonsense looks just like the magna ! dunno if its as good ?.

 

[Kyle87]

Cheap filter screwfix Nonsense looks just like the magna ! dunno if its as good ?.

It has a real short magnet. I haven't fitted one as it looks like tescos own brand of filter with te big no nonsense sticker but I was pulling one apart in plumbfix jut to have a look

 

[Ray Stafford]

I'd not bother with the trv's and make sure you put a filter in if its to be cost effective.

Surely the saving in heating bills isn't going to off set the cost of all the things that go wrong with the boiler because you don't have a filter to protect it.

Somehow central heating managed to last from Roman times to 2005 without magnetic filters.

 

[cava55]

Don't think the romans had stainless and aluminium heat exchanger's that clog up ! lol

 

[Kyle87]

Somehow central heating managed to last from Roman times to 2005 without magnetic filters.

But the Romans didn't fit boilers that wasn't built to last so the greedy manufacturers can get a lifetime income out of supplying parts to the tat they sold you in the first place

 

[Kyle87]

The Romans were so good at making stuff that the stuff outlasted the Romans.

A modern boiler won't outlast the life of your kids hamster

 

[Ray Stafford]

Bulldog trv & locksheild £6. Not much more budget than that tbh!

Thats a good deal.

 

[JAH HEATING]

The likes of say Pts own brand, who makes them ?

 

[Killy Bing]

The likes of say Pts own brand, who makes them ?

I think the boss range is pegler in disguise ?

 

[JAH HEATING]

I think the boss range is pegler in disguise ?

Was thinking more of the chemicals mate

 

[FD Powerflow]

That's interesting and good to know but I doubt my landlord will be interested.

To be honest you might as well not bother putting most own brand in. If your landlord is that tight that he wants to save £4 and risk his heating system then he deserves to have BG come and give him a quote for £900 for a powerflush in two years time (give him my number). Not getting personal Army, it just seemed that in my day we cared about the quality of work and products we put in whereas in all walks of life now there is always someone who will do the job cheaper with little or no thought about long term consequences.

 

[Irish]

If or when the cheap and nasty stuff you buy goes wrong who do you think the tight fisted landlord is going to moan at ? I wouldn't dream of doing it if I was you . Absolute recipe for disaster in my opinion

 

[solutions]

Cheap filter screwfix Nonsense looks just like the magna ! dunno if its as good ?.

The no nonsense filter is good on the whole. Lacks an air bleed on top and it likes to trap air which is annoying as you have to crack the main lid to release the air. Otherwise just like the magnaclean but with a drain off on the bottom and a shorter magnet on the inside.Half as long I think.

 

[SimonG]

To be honest you might as well not bother putting most own brand in. .

Statement based on what?

 

[JAH HEATING]

I like the new magnacleans, fitted a few recently. Like them

 

[Ray Stafford]

To be honest you might as well not bother putting most own brand in.

Could you expand on that from a technical point of view?

I am no chemist, but I did spend quite a lot of time trying to understand what the active ingredients in inhibitors and cleaners were, and what was in the cheaper alternatives, and where (if anywhere) the corners were being cut on the cheaper brands.

As far as I can tell, Aqueous Logic aren't cutting any corners in their chemistry, but they spend very little on sales and marketing. Its interesting to note that some of their technology is now licenced by one of the brand leaders

If you have some technical knowledge that would shed any light on this, I would love to hear it.

 

[armyash]

I would just like to say it makes no difference to me. I will happily put in the most expensive chemical when the funds are there. This guy has left the house with no heating for over a month now, he sent round 4 different engineers as he was hoping someone would say "yeah i'll fix that for £50" Each one said "needs a new boiler" as not worth spending money on parts. Also the fact that the casing is rusting pretty badly. He barely speaks English which doesnt help.

I will flush system and add inhibitor and whatever else is required according to MI's.

The landlord never has his boilers serviced. Ever, the boiler i'm replacing is 4 years old!.

I

 

[EPH]

What boilers coming out and what are you fitting?

Surely th fact its coming out after such a short time means that he's getting something better?

 

[Roger Welton]

I would just like to say it makes no difference to me. I will happily put in the most expensive chemical when the funds are there. This guy has left the house with no heating for over a month now, he sent round 4 different engineers as he was hoping someone would say "yeah i'll fix that for £50" Each one said "needs a new boiler" as not worth spending money on parts. Also the fact that the casing is rusting pretty badly. He barely speaks English which doesnt help.

I will flush system and add inhibitor and whatever else is required according to MI's.

The landlord never has his boilers serviced. Ever, the boiler i'm replacing is 4 years old!.

I

Personally wouldn't entertain doing the job, don't like dealing with people like this. Just done on cost is never a good thing.

 

[armyash]

What boilers coming out and what are you fitting?

Surely th fact its coming out after such a short time means that he's getting something better?

It's a sime ecomfort coming out and a Potterton Heatmax going in.

 

[Killy Bing]

a piece of poo for a piece of poo. it's land lords. we don't need to bash ash, he knows the score of what you should do normally, however as its getting chilly I don't blame him putting the boiler in himself !!! a month without heating!

 

[armyash]

Personally wouldn't entertain doing the job, don't like dealing with people like this. Just done on cost is never a good thing.

He has paid for the boiler etc and rather than actually pay me he is giving us discounted rent for a few months, I'm not rich enough to say no to that but i respect your opinion.

 

[Ermintrude]

It's swings and roundabouts!

 

[Roger Welton]

a piece of poo for a piece of poo. it's land lords. we don't need to bash ash, he knows the score of what you should do normally, however as its getting chilly I don't blame him putting the boiler in himself !!! a month without heating!

Fair enough if it's his own gaff, would still annoy me that everything's done on the cheap. I bet the rents not cheap.

 

[FD Powerflow]

Could you expand on that from a technical point of view?

I am no chemist, but I did spend quite a lot of time trying to understand what the active ingredients in inhibitors and cleaners were, and what was in the cheaper alternatives, and where (if anywhere) the corners were being cut on the cheaper brands.

As far as I can tell, Aqueous Logic aren't cutting any corners in their chemistry, but they spend very little on sales and marketing. Its interesting to note that some of their technology is now licenced by one of the brand leaders

If you have some technical knowledge that would shed any light on this, I would love to hear it.

I wouldn't call myself an expert but I would class myself as educated. My water treatment experience in particular comes from various training courses from people like Ideal, Vaillant, Fernox, Kamco, Sentinel and Grundfos.

Firstly the main ingredient in any good inhibitor is commonly Molybdenum. This works by creating a mineral layer, which prevents Oxygen from attacking (Oxidising) metals and creating metal Oxides. The most common of which is Iron Oxide (Fe03, red rust). The corrosion process involves an Ion exchange which can also be prevented by shifting the corrosion potential to a passive area in a process called passivation, usually using Sodium Benzoate. Good inhibitors will use more than one process to prevent corrosion.

Molybdenum and Sodium Benzoate aren't cheap and as such there are cheaper alternatives such as Nitrate, Nitrite and Phosphates, none of which are great from a health and safety perspective. Feel free to do your own Googling if you're interested. Nitrite in particular was responsible for so called blue baby syndrome back in the 80's when it was used in commercial water treatment.

The minimum standard which boiler OEM's look for is called Buildcert, the list of approved products which have been tested to say that they do as they claim is available to view at [DLMURL]http://www.buildcert.com/check_an_approval.htm[/DLMURL]. This leads me on to AqueousLogic, who I might add have 0 products approved by Buildcert and as such Boiler OEM's could invalidate your warranty for using. Not to mention the fact that according to their website they use Nitrite in their inhibitors http://www.aqueouslogic.co.uk/resources/Rapid-Dose+Central+Heating+Protector+200ml+MSDS.pdf

AqueousLogic "license their technology" because Sentinel don't have in house manufacturing, nor is bag in can technology a licence owned by AqueousLogic, it is a universal technology of which you probably have a few cans in the house (wife's hairspray, air freshener, deodorant).

I have a friend who works for an independent merchant in Leeds and they recently put out a tender for own brand and a company called Calmag applied with this product. The price was amazing and it was only when he went on their website to look at the MSDS for storage implications that he saw that not only did it have Sodium Nitrite in it but Formaldehyde which is a Carcinogen! http://www.calmagltd.com/index.php?route=product/download/download&download_id=10

Moral of the story is don't always trust your rep.


Hope this helps

 

[Ray Stafford]

Molybdenum and Sodium Benzoate aren't cheap and as such there are cheaper alternatives such as Nitrate, Nitrite and Phosphates, none of which are great from a health and safety perspective. Feel free to do your own Googling if you're interested. Nitrite in particular was responsible for so called blue baby syndrome back in the 80's when it was used in commercial water treatment.

The nitrite to which you refer is sodium nitrite according to the link you provided for Aqueous Logic. Sodium nitrite is currently an approved food additive and occurs naturally in many foodstuffs so why would I worry about its presence in my central heating inhibitor?

not only did it have Sodium Nitrite in it but Formaldehyde which is a Carcinogen

Another bit of googling and I find that Formaldehyde is not only routinely used in some over the counter medications, but it is actually secreted by our own kidneys where it acts as a disinfectant in the urinary tract.
Again - why would I worry about such a substance being in my central heating system?


I can't help noticing that your username is very similar to a Fernox brandname. Is there something you should be telling us?

 

[Mike Jackson]

A quick google also gives us Sodium benzoate is a preservative that promotes cancer and kills healthy cells

 

[FD Powerflow]

Its all to do with moderation. 4mg of Nitrite is toxic as it causes Methemoglobinemia, the reason Fernox and Sentinel don't use it is easy to find on google. Nitrite isnt a great inhibitor and as such cylinder coils were corroding, mixing primary water with DHW, pots got washed, children were bathed in it, people were hospitalised.

In contrast "sodium benzoate is designated as generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by Food and Drug Administration.[SUP][10][/SUP]The International Programme on Chemical Safety found no adverse effects in humans at doses of 647–825 mg/kg of body weight per day" from wiki.

If you put anything in Google and add Cancer you will find a result. Should You Be Worried About McDonald’s Giving You Cancer? | Care2 Causes I'm at an age where I've lost far too many friends to Cancer and perhaps I'm too sensitive but its my opinion nonetheless.

Formaldehyde is so toxic that its not allowed to be used to store tissue biopsy's in Hospitals in case of spillage. I appreciate your status as a self made man and we need to make margin but I just don't agree with including harmful chemicals in a product just to reduce cost.

Even if you don't agree with not using ingredients like the above the minimum criteria (buildcert) still applies. If the boiler manufacturer doesn't recommend it they have the right to say no to a warranty, might not have meant much back in my day of Ideal Classic's and Thorn Apollo's but even Baxi are offering 7 year warranty.

As for my name its Fred Dibnah - Powerflow, Fred Dibnah has been my nickname for over 20 years due to my pedantic nature (you dont say, I hear you cry!) and Powerflow because over the 4 years of me being on here I've made no secret of the fact that I use Fernox's machine, alongside a Kamco Flushing magnet, Adey and Fernox Filters and Fernox, Sentinel and Kamco chemicals (depending on deals at Crossling's) all of which Ive advocated the use of on here. Bit odd if I was working for Fernox although if they want to send me some freebies I won't complain. hint hint

 

[Ray Stafford]

Thanks for the response FDP.

It would be a funny old world if we all agreed with one another.

Formaldehyde is so toxic that its not allowed to be used to store tissue biopsy's in Hospitals in case of spillage.

It is also used in a variety of over the counter medications, and it also turned up on this link as an anti-perspirant.

I appreciate your status as a self made man and we need to make margin but I just don't agree with including harmful chemicals in a product just to reduce cost.

And that sentence could be insulting if it were not so risible.

 

[FD Powerflow]

Not a sleight at you Ray, that is aimed at the manufacturers involved. Enjoyed the debate for what its worth. Can we move on to Geopolitical infrastructure for 10 points please?

 

[Ray Stafford]

Not a sleight at you Ray, that is aimed at the manufacturers involved. Enjoyed the debate for what its worth. Can we move on to Geopolitical infrastructure for 10 points please?

Sounds fair to me. And the forum hasn't addressed the middle eastern situation for a while.