allowed drop when doing a tightness test...

[rickstar88]

Hi all,just thought id mention this because i had a heated debate with 2 other gas engineers about the drop allowance when doing a tightness test.Last week 1 of the engineers left a 2 millibar drop at a property and said it was fine to do so as it was a g4 meter..i said ok but could you isolate all the appliances,he said yes...then i said well if you isolate all of them and then do another tightness test and it still drops 2 millbar then your not allowed to leave it because your not allowed ANY drop on pipework OLD or NEW,he said your allowed up to 4 millibar on a g4 meter in all cases...so to back my point up i got him to ring gas safe and they told him he was wrong...just thought id mention it incase any other engineers have been doing the same thing...let me know your views and what you think....

 

[kirkgas]

Hi all,just thought id mention this because i had a heated debate with 2 other gas engineers about the drop allowance when doing a tightness test.Last week 1 of the engineers left a 2 millibar drop at a property and said it was fine to do so as it was a g4 meter..i said ok but could you isolate all the appliances,he said yes...then i said well if you isolate all of them and then do another tightness test and it still drops 2 millbar then your not allowed to leave it because your not allowed ANY drop on pipework OLD or NEW,he said your allowed up to 4 millibar on a g4 meter in all cases...so to back my point up i got him to ring gas safe and they told him he was wrong...just thought id mention it incase any other engineers have been doing the same thing...let me know your views and what you think....

this is 100% correct, the dodgy bit for me is that you dont NEED to isolate the appliances to confirm whether it is appliance or carcass leak, some people will argue that is wrong or poor working practice, but it has been confirmed many yrs ago with CORGI, if you have 2mb drop on existing carcass which has an appliance it is fine to leave. IF you choose to disconnect the appliance to assit identification of the leak and you find it is on the carcass it CANNOT be left

 

[GQuigley67]

i thought that with a 2mb drop or anything like that(within the limits) on an existing system it would be fine as long as there is no smell of gas? correct me if im wrong.

 

[rickstar88]

hi kirkgas,yeah it is correct...the bit i dont get is how people will think isolating the appliances is wrong or poor practice,as isolating them(if possible to do so) gives you the answer to your problem straight away...

 

[rickstar88]

Hi GQuigley67,the 2 other engineers who i am talking about thought exactly the same,as long as there's no smell of gas you can leave it on existing pipework if its within the limits,this only apply's if you have an appliance that cannot be isolated(e.g-a gas hob with no isolation tap).if you can isolate all the appliances then you are not allowed any drop on any pipework old or new...

 

[GQuigley67]

ok that's fine, i've never actually had a drop on the pipework before so have never had to do it, so was just wondering thanks

 

[rickstar88]

ok,cheers for your thoughts anyway...

 

[kirkgas]

hi kirkgas,yeah it is correct...the bit i dont get is how people will think isolating the appliances is wrong or poor practice,as isolating them(if possible to do so) gives you the answer to your problem straight away...

no what i meant was people will think it bad practice NOT to isolate the appliances

 

[Blackcatgas]

Hi GQuigley67,the 2 other engineers who i am talking about thought exactly the same,as long as there's no smell of gas you can leave it on existing pipework if its within the limits,this only apply's if you have an appliance that cannot be isolated(e.g-a gas hob with no isolation tap).if you can isolate all the appliances then you are not allowed any drop on any pipework old or new...

Hmmm..Ok so youve found a leak "within limits" on a gas carcass conected to a boiler, the boiler has an iso valve on it, where does it then say that you Have to then isolate the apliance and test again?. ( I will always Isolate first afetr finding a drop btw) Iam genuinly just interested.

 

[rickstar88]

ah right..i see what you mean kirkgas

 

[kirkgas]

Hmmm..Ok so youve found a leak "within limits" on a gas carcass conected to a boiler, the boiler has an iso valve on it, where does it then say that you Have to then isolate the apliance and test again?. ( I will always Isolate first afetr finding a drop btw) Iam genuinly just interested.

it doesnt say it anywhere, if it is carcass only you have no drop, if it is a new install you have no drop, if it is existing carcass with appliances connected there is a table to tell you the permisible drop, depending on meter and pipe size, some people interpret the regs as there being a need to isolate an appliance to check the carcass only, but you dont need to, i have no issue with anyone who does isolate an appliance to confirm it is on the carcass and therefore must be fixed, as long as they clarify it with the person who is ultimately going to get the invoice, as an aside, when i test an existing caracc with appliances and i find a drop i mark it on the paperwork to give the owner the opportunity to decide whether they want the leak fixed at a later date or not, as i interpret the regs as it being their choice after i have informed them, it is perfectly acceptable to tick the PASS box, but i always note the drop as well

 

[Reg Man]

Hmmm..Ok so youve found a leak "within limits" on a gas carcass conected to a boiler, the boiler has an iso valve on it, where does it then say that you Have to then isolate the apliance and test again?. ( I will always Isolate first afetr finding a drop btw) Iam genuinly just interested.

Exactly what KIRKGAS was saying; "it don't say you have too". Everyone has their own views on this. Personaly I am not happy to see any drop on the gauge. If I did see the slight drop, I would most likely, if practicble, check it with the appliance iso valves off to make sure and always ask the occupier if they ever smell gas anywhere in the property.

 

[rickstar88]

Hi Blackcatgas, I didn't say that it says you HAVE to then isolate the appliance and test again,this is just the procedure that i would take..i am just trying to make sure that everyone is aware as 2 engineers i know were not and could of got into bother...

 

[tamz]

This is why it is important to carry and use testing and purging forms. Record what you are testing and your findings. If a permissable drop is found, it is then at the discretion of the individual operative as to whether or not appliances are then isolated and further tested.

Personally, as most others also, i would isolate and retest but i can see why it may not be done especially by the guys under time pressure on jobs.
Same thing with there being no requirement to do a tightness test when service /repair or doing a landlords cert. It is up to you to make the call.

 

[rickstar88]

Are you sure you don't have to with a landlord cert,after all it is a gas safety certificate and by not doing a tightness test your not checking that all the gas is safe are you...

 

[GrahamM]

If there is no smell of gas you can assume the install is gas tight. There is no requirement to do a tightness test otherwise.
Just look at the people that set the standard for us all- British Gas.
The house would need to be seconds away from exploding into flames before good old BG decide a tightness test is required.

 

[tamz]

There is no legal requirement to do a tightness test when doing a landlord cert. (GSIUR 26.9)

I know all forms have a box for tightness test but it doesn't have to be done. It is good practice to carry one out but very much up to the engineer and the time pressure they may be put under by their employers.

As GrahamM said, BG engineers will rarely do a tightness test.

 

[rickstar88]

well the rules state that if you break into gas then you must do a tightness test and to do a service or CP12 properly you have to break into gas to to the pressure checks so in that case that means it must be carried out...

 

[tamz]

And how do you figure that out?

 

[rickstar88]

how do u mean....is it not correct like

 

[tamz]

That is what soapy is for

 

[GQuigley67]

well the rules state that if you break into gas then you must do a tightness test and to do a service or CP12 properly you have to break into gas to to the pressure checks so in that case that means it must be carried out...

isolate the gas supply to the boiler and after your service do a mini tightness test on the appliance, if it holds then its fine.

 

[metaldust9]

There is no legal requirement to do a tightness test when doing a landlord cert. (GSIUR 26.9)



thought 26.9 was **** ,flue ,air ,gas,safety therefore a tightness test is required under safety i would do one anyway full stop as i couldnt walk a away with a drop anything on a g4 ie 20mb to 18mb makes me very uneasy even tho your allowed to go down to 16mb dont think i would

 

[Reg Man]

Tightness test on lanlord gas safety check? Landlords have a duty to maintain gas appliances, flues and pipework. Do you therfore do a tightness test to forefill the miantain pipework part of the regs? Personaly I do, as the question is on the sheet. Makes me feel more confident if I have.

 

[kirkgas]

well the rules state that if you break into gas then you must do a tightness test and to do a service or CP12 properly you have to break into gas to to the pressure checks so in that case that means it must be carried out...

no it doesnt, when i do a service properly i disconnect as required and then when i put the bits back together i test everything to the nearest downstream valve (the appliance iso ) with LDF, and i fully comply with the regs, when doing LGSC's it was part of our contract/price to do a TT, but a contract which is stricter than the regs doesnt make it mandatory for every job, it is reasonable for us all to have slightly different points of view on things, but i think it is totally unprofessional for some of us not to know the regs

 

[pauls]

maybe im being over cautious but i tightness test every time i go near or touch anything on gas side.

 

[shorticus]

This is from the guide notes (219) of Reg 36 Duties of Landlords

'Installation pipework is not covered by the annual safety check but it is recommended that a test for soundness on the whole gas system, including installation pipework, together with visual examination (as far as is reasonably practicable) of the pipework, be made at the same time as the safety check'.

So it's not law but it is recommended.

 

[kirkgas]

maybe im being over cautious but i tightness test every time i go near or touch anything on gas side.

it is very admirable of you to do a TT every time, however, on a job where you do not have to, say you find a 0.5mb drop, do you then isolate the appliances to confirm it is on carcass, and if it is on the carcass you then need to repair or cap it off, what would your customer say about being left with no gas, or an additional invoice for a few hundred quid, (have you ever had to look for a 0.5mb drop, it ends up easier to renew the whole carcass) of the guys i know who do TT's every time, some stop after initial test and inform the customer that there is a small drop which can be left and attended to later, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed choice and still have their appliances in use, do you do this or the full test i described above? i never have an issue with people being over cautious as long as they discuss it with the bill payer before they take it upon themselves to over step the regs, it really isnt about you being safer/better than those who dont, it is about you being a pro and knowing your job/the regs

 

[SafeGasInstall]

it only takes 5 min and what we dont want is this to turn around to be the most important 5 min in your life thereafter full of regret !!!

 

[pauls]

fair point

 

[Reg Man]

Agree with all. The regs are not that specific. If I service a boiler, it is not a requirement to carry out a TT of the whole system (LDF sufficient or test from the inlet test point). In the case of a landlord check, I do a TT because the landlord has a duty to pipework and although it does not tell you everything, at least it will be tested and left safe. I have been to properties and found gas leaks on the carcass during a gas safety check, therefore I think there is benefit to do the TT in a LGSR.

 

[plumbster3456]

everytime i go to touch any gas pipework i will do a tt before hand and thgen after.
for example if i was going to fit a cooker i would do a tt before and after.
I think anyone who thinks you can do a landlord safety check without carrying out a tt is very wrong.
Landlords have a duty to make sure propertys are safe and without an annual tightness test along with the other parts of the check this cannot be properly confirmed.
how anyone can touch anything that carries gas and not carry out a very simple 5 min job of tt is beyond me.
The regs can be interprotated in different ways but I think if you had gas safe on one of your jobs like on a probation visit and told them you were doing safety checks but not doing a tt they would tell you that is wrong.

 

[tamz]

I think if you had gas safe on one of your jobs like on a probation visit and told them you were doing safety checks but not doing a tt they would tell you that is wrong.

No they wouldn't. They may however say it was advisable.

 

[Reg Man]

Gas Safe register inspector, will ask you to do TT. But if you look on the standard LGSR form, at tightness testing box, it asks pass or fail; does it mention not tested?

 

[tamz]

Steve i have to disagree with you on this one.
I know full well it is advisable and good practice to do one. I do one. 90% of fitters do one. But, it is not a legal requirement.
The people who make the forms don't make the rules. You just score it out or write N/A, not tested or whatever else you want to fulfill the usual CYA.

 

[plumbster3456]

what would happen for example if you done a landlord safety check on a property on the monday morning then on the friday of the same week there was a gas explosion at that same property due to a gas leak?
Gas Safe and the hse would want to see the landlords up to date gas safety records which would then have a n/a next to the part that says tightness test pass or fail.
Do you think this would be acceptable to do? I think they would not be too happy with you whether they could charge you or not with a criminal offence is irrelevant they would not accept an not applicable next to the tt bit of form,
If I am wrong then you learn something new every day

 

[Reg Man]

Tamz we have to agree to disagree then. The LGSR CP12 form was proposed by CORGI at the time and approved by The Health & Safety Executive as compliance with the regulations. If we take the regulations literally then I agree with you, because its not specific. No problem if you write not tested, but does this forefill the landlords duties? Maintain gas pipes.

 

[tamz]

Well 3456 you have indeed learned something, believe me.
I am not saying it is right, just stating it as it is.

Btw, a tightness test is just a snapshot in time of how things are.

In your example above, say a TT carried out on the Monday, the tenant decides to fix that squeaky board just after you leave and nails a pipe. He has no sense of smell and wakes with a bang (or doesn't) on the Tuesday. He is not around to say he nailed a few boards but your paperwork says all was well on Monday..........................

Steve
It would be so easy to change the wording on the regs but once again who are we????

 

[Reg Man]

Agree totally, Snap shot TT (MOT on the motor only as good as it leaves the test centre). But the HSE like to see it done. Its all about covering the butt. Ultimately the landlord has the resposibility, so he employs me, to do the LGSR to forefill his duty. The landlords duty is to get a registered business to check the gas safety of the dwelling he is renting. If I do not put a TT on the system, that could be seen as not maintaining the gas pipe. If something happens there after that requires investigation, then, its easier to say, I tested at the time and it was safe.

 

[GrahamM]

On the button tamz. I myself was caught up in a small incident where a TT was carried after work, but fittings were disturbed the same day resulting in a gas leak.
The installation was gas tight when I left and thankfully the incident was fully investigated and had no implication on myself.

It is good practise to do a TT, but unless you are cutting into pipework etc., it is not a requirement and if you do not do one during normal course of work such as annual service etc., but have had no smell of gas and used LDF on disturbed test points. You have completed the job as per the regs and should have nothing to worry legally.

 

[tamz]

I agree with you Steve. But the regs and wording need sorting out.

As for the example i gave above.
Last week i was doing an install in an empty tenement in Leith (Edinburgh). Everything finished tested and commisioned.
Couple of boards still up to sweep the dust under. Apprentice laid the boards back. Getting the tools and gear out to the van and i give it another final test before closing the door as i always do. I can see a drop straight away but let it go for the 2 mins. 7mb drop and know it was fine an hour earlier. No smell of gas either. Bit of a moan to the boy (putting it mildly) and lift the last few boards to go down and sure enough a nail through the gas. It is easily done and we have all done it. (if he had nailed a heating pipe and flooded the downstairs house i would have probably hung him out the window by the ankles)
Word to the wise.
Make sure a test is the last thing you do before leaving.

Graham
Glad it came out ok but i know it would have been a worrying time. Thankfully has never happened to me but it could happen to anyone.

 

[tamz]

This has been a good thread with a lot of information and things to think about

I'm away to take the dogs for a quick walk.

Btw. did i mention i hate cats

 

[Reg Man]

Thats exactly the point. GrahamM. You did everything to the book. Recorded on the form on the date and time you were there. Only as good as you left it. But at least you did the TT. Professional approach, document what you do.

 

[kirkgas]

it only takes 5 min and what we dont want is this to turn around to be the most important 5 min in your life thereafter full of regret !!!

doing the test isnt the issue, here it is working within the regs on the result of the test, as i have already said, if you test when not mandatory, do you then test carcass only and shut a system down as it has a 0.5mb drop, or invoice Xhrs @£X's to find it, then when the customers moans to another engineer to be told the test and invoice wasnt mandatory, your useful help/professional attitude will be the cause of a moan from a customer who is £400 down, they wont see it as a potential safety feature for their family, we know what they are like

 

[rickstar88]

no it doesnt, when i do a service properly i disconnect as required and then when i put the bits back together i test everything to the nearest downstream valve (the appliance iso ) with LDF, and i fully comply with the regs, when doing LGSC's it was part of our contract/price to do a TT, but a contract which is stricter than the regs doesnt make it mandatory for every job, it is reasonable for us all to have slightly different points of view on things, but i think it is totally unprofessional for some of us not to know the regs

Yeah,i totally agree........but a CP12 is a GAS SAFTEY CERTIFICATE.......so if your not testing the gas carcuss then how are you fully checking the gas in that property

 

[rickstar88]

same here bud...

 

[kirkgas]

Yeah,i totally agree........but a CP12 is a GAS SAFTEY CERTIFICATE.......so if your not testing the gas carcuss then how are you fully checking the gas in that property

re-read what i wrote, i said when i do a service i dont TT, when i do a LGSC i do, i interpret the landlords requirement to verify safety of gas carcass as needing a TT to do this for me (plus a visual inspection where possible) a lot of us are quoting different types of work and whether we do/dont do a TT,

 

[plumbster3456]

so it is confirmed that do do a landlords gas safety check a tighgtness test must be carried out in order to properly check that property and that n/a next to the tt bit of the form would not be aloud from gas safe / hse

 

[shorticus]

so it is confirmed that do do a landlords gas safety check a tighgtness test must be carried out in order to properly check that property and that n/a next to the tt bit of the form would not be aloud from gas safe / hse

It is not a 'must' it is a 'recommended', my earlier post is copied directly from the guidance notes in GSIUR

 

[kirkgas]

It is not a 'must' it is a 'recommended', my earlier post is copied directly from the guidance notes in GSIUR

i agree 100% with your comment, and like other things in the regs, open to interpretation, which nobody cares about until there is a problem,
it is accepted by us all that a landlord MUST confirm the integrity of the gas carcass, how we confirm this should be easy to agree on as well ie a TT, however we seem to be getting caught up maybe not trying to be clever, but well i dont know what we are trying to do, but ultimately it needs to go to court to decide what is needed to confirm a gas carcass is sound, it would seem easier to use a test that is industry recognised as the bench mark but we seem to want to discuss it to death as it doesnt actually say TT in the regs, of those that dont do TT for LGSC how do you confirm it is safe? there are 2 points getting crossed over in these posts, the other being the need/desire to do a TT every time, as i have posted im not against it as long as the customer is made aware of the potential problems of finding a tiny leak, which with appliances connected is allowed to be left, i advise people to check with the customer BEFORE doing a TT that isnt mandatory purely to CYA if you find a tiny leak that requires a full re-pipe, because i know if you dont agree first and the customer finds out a TT isnt mandatory on a service then they will loan the face off you for costing then £100's, and we all know they will change their mind on the safety side of it when someone else tells them is wasnt mandatory