allowed drop when doing a tightness test...

[rickstar88]

Hi all,just thought id mention this because i had a heated debate with 2 other gas engineers about the drop allowance when doing a tightness test.Last week 1 of the engineers left a 2 millibar drop at a property and said it was fine to do so as it was a g4 meter..i said ok but could you isolate all the appliances,he said yes...then i said well if you isolate all of them and then do another tightness test and it still drops 2 millbar then your not allowed to leave it because your not allowed ANY drop on pipework OLD or NEW,he said your allowed up to 4 millibar on a g4 meter in all cases...so to back my point up i got him to ring gas safe and they told him he was wrong...just thought id mention it incase any other engineers have been doing the same thing...let me know your views and what you think....

 

[Reg Man]

Agree with all. The regs are not that specific. If I service a boiler, it is not a requirement to carry out a TT of the whole system (LDF sufficient or test from the inlet test point). In the case of a landlord check, I do a TT because the landlord has a duty to pipework and although it does not tell you everything, at least it will be tested and left safe. I have been to properties and found gas leaks on the carcass during a gas safety check, therefore I think there is benefit to do the TT in a LGSR.

 

[plumbster3456]

everytime i go to touch any gas pipework i will do a tt before hand and thgen after.
for example if i was going to fit a cooker i would do a tt before and after.
I think anyone who thinks you can do a landlord safety check without carrying out a tt is very wrong.
Landlords have a duty to make sure propertys are safe and without an annual tightness test along with the other parts of the check this cannot be properly confirmed.
how anyone can touch anything that carries gas and not carry out a very simple 5 min job of tt is beyond me.
The regs can be interprotated in different ways but I think if you had gas safe on one of your jobs like on a probation visit and told them you were doing safety checks but not doing a tt they would tell you that is wrong.

 

[tamz]

I think if you had gas safe on one of your jobs like on a probation visit and told them you were doing safety checks but not doing a tt they would tell you that is wrong.

No they wouldn't. They may however say it was advisable.

 

[Reg Man]

Gas Safe register inspector, will ask you to do TT. But if you look on the standard LGSR form, at tightness testing box, it asks pass or fail; does it mention not tested?

 

[tamz]

Steve i have to disagree with you on this one.
I know full well it is advisable and good practice to do one. I do one. 90% of fitters do one. But, it is not a legal requirement.
The people who make the forms don't make the rules. You just score it out or write N/A, not tested or whatever else you want to fulfill the usual CYA.

 

[plumbster3456]

what would happen for example if you done a landlord safety check on a property on the monday morning then on the friday of the same week there was a gas explosion at that same property due to a gas leak?
Gas Safe and the hse would want to see the landlords up to date gas safety records which would then have a n/a next to the part that says tightness test pass or fail.
Do you think this would be acceptable to do? I think they would not be too happy with you whether they could charge you or not with a criminal offence is irrelevant they would not accept an not applicable next to the tt bit of form,
If I am wrong then you learn something new every day

 

[Reg Man]

Tamz we have to agree to disagree then. The LGSR CP12 form was proposed by CORGI at the time and approved by The Health & Safety Executive as compliance with the regulations. If we take the regulations literally then I agree with you, because its not specific. No problem if you write not tested, but does this forefill the landlords duties? Maintain gas pipes.

 

[tamz]

Well 3456 you have indeed learned something, believe me.
I am not saying it is right, just stating it as it is.

Btw, a tightness test is just a snapshot in time of how things are.

In your example above, say a TT carried out on the Monday, the tenant decides to fix that squeaky board just after you leave and nails a pipe. He has no sense of smell and wakes with a bang (or doesn't) on the Tuesday. He is not around to say he nailed a few boards but your paperwork says all was well on Monday..........................

Steve
It would be so easy to change the wording on the regs but once again who are we????

 

[Reg Man]

Agree totally, Snap shot TT (MOT on the motor only as good as it leaves the test centre). But the HSE like to see it done. Its all about covering the butt. Ultimately the landlord has the resposibility, so he employs me, to do the LGSR to forefill his duty. The landlords duty is to get a registered business to check the gas safety of the dwelling he is renting. If I do not put a TT on the system, that could be seen as not maintaining the gas pipe. If something happens there after that requires investigation, then, its easier to say, I tested at the time and it was safe.

 

[GrahamM]

On the button tamz. I myself was caught up in a small incident where a TT was carried after work, but fittings were disturbed the same day resulting in a gas leak.
The installation was gas tight when I left and thankfully the incident was fully investigated and had no implication on myself.

It is good practise to do a TT, but unless you are cutting into pipework etc., it is not a requirement and if you do not do one during normal course of work such as annual service etc., but have had no smell of gas and used LDF on disturbed test points. You have completed the job as per the regs and should have nothing to worry legally.

 

[tamz]

I agree with you Steve. But the regs and wording need sorting out.

As for the example i gave above.
Last week i was doing an install in an empty tenement in Leith (Edinburgh). Everything finished tested and commisioned.
Couple of boards still up to sweep the dust under. Apprentice laid the boards back. Getting the tools and gear out to the van and i give it another final test before closing the door as i always do. I can see a drop straight away but let it go for the 2 mins. 7mb drop and know it was fine an hour earlier. No smell of gas either. Bit of a moan to the boy (putting it mildly) and lift the last few boards to go down and sure enough a nail through the gas. It is easily done and we have all done it. (if he had nailed a heating pipe and flooded the downstairs house i would have probably hung him out the window by the ankles)
Word to the wise.
Make sure a test is the last thing you do before leaving.

Graham
Glad it came out ok but i know it would have been a worrying time. Thankfully has never happened to me but it could happen to anyone.

 

[tamz]

This has been a good thread with a lot of information and things to think about

I'm away to take the dogs for a quick walk.

Btw. did i mention i hate cats

 

[Reg Man]

Thats exactly the point. GrahamM. You did everything to the book. Recorded on the form on the date and time you were there. Only as good as you left it. But at least you did the TT. Professional approach, document what you do.

 

[kirkgas]

it only takes 5 min and what we dont want is this to turn around to be the most important 5 min in your life thereafter full of regret !!!

doing the test isnt the issue, here it is working within the regs on the result of the test, as i have already said, if you test when not mandatory, do you then test carcass only and shut a system down as it has a 0.5mb drop, or invoice Xhrs @£X's to find it, then when the customers moans to another engineer to be told the test and invoice wasnt mandatory, your useful help/professional attitude will be the cause of a moan from a customer who is £400 down, they wont see it as a potential safety feature for their family, we know what they are like

 

[rickstar88]

no it doesnt, when i do a service properly i disconnect as required and then when i put the bits back together i test everything to the nearest downstream valve (the appliance iso ) with LDF, and i fully comply with the regs, when doing LGSC's it was part of our contract/price to do a TT, but a contract which is stricter than the regs doesnt make it mandatory for every job, it is reasonable for us all to have slightly different points of view on things, but i think it is totally unprofessional for some of us not to know the regs

Yeah,i totally agree........but a CP12 is a GAS SAFTEY CERTIFICATE.......so if your not testing the gas carcuss then how are you fully checking the gas in that property

 

[rickstar88]

same here bud...

 

[kirkgas]

Yeah,i totally agree........but a CP12 is a GAS SAFTEY CERTIFICATE.......so if your not testing the gas carcuss then how are you fully checking the gas in that property

re-read what i wrote, i said when i do a service i dont TT, when i do a LGSC i do, i interpret the landlords requirement to verify safety of gas carcass as needing a TT to do this for me (plus a visual inspection where possible) a lot of us are quoting different types of work and whether we do/dont do a TT,

 

[plumbster3456]

so it is confirmed that do do a landlords gas safety check a tighgtness test must be carried out in order to properly check that property and that n/a next to the tt bit of the form would not be aloud from gas safe / hse

 

[shorticus]

so it is confirmed that do do a landlords gas safety check a tighgtness test must be carried out in order to properly check that property and that n/a next to the tt bit of the form would not be aloud from gas safe / hse

It is not a 'must' it is a 'recommended', my earlier post is copied directly from the guidance notes in GSIUR

 

[kirkgas]

It is not a 'must' it is a 'recommended', my earlier post is copied directly from the guidance notes in GSIUR

i agree 100% with your comment, and like other things in the regs, open to interpretation, which nobody cares about until there is a problem,
it is accepted by us all that a landlord MUST confirm the integrity of the gas carcass, how we confirm this should be easy to agree on as well ie a TT, however we seem to be getting caught up maybe not trying to be clever, but well i dont know what we are trying to do, but ultimately it needs to go to court to decide what is needed to confirm a gas carcass is sound, it would seem easier to use a test that is industry recognised as the bench mark but we seem to want to discuss it to death as it doesnt actually say TT in the regs, of those that dont do TT for LGSC how do you confirm it is safe? there are 2 points getting crossed over in these posts, the other being the need/desire to do a TT every time, as i have posted im not against it as long as the customer is made aware of the potential problems of finding a tiny leak, which with appliances connected is allowed to be left, i advise people to check with the customer BEFORE doing a TT that isnt mandatory purely to CYA if you find a tiny leak that requires a full re-pipe, because i know if you dont agree first and the customer finds out a TT isnt mandatory on a service then they will loan the face off you for costing then £100's, and we all know they will change their mind on the safety side of it when someone else tells them is wasnt mandatory

 

[shorticus]

i agree 100% with your comment, and like other things in the regs, open to interpretation, which nobody cares about until there is a problem,
it is accepted by us all that a landlord MUST confirm the integrity of the gas carcass, how we confirm this should be easy to agree on as well ie a TT, however we seem to be getting caught up maybe not trying to be clever, but well i dont know what we are trying to do, but ultimately it needs to go to court to decide what is needed to confirm a gas carcass is sound, it would seem easier to use a test that is industry recognised as the bench mark but we seem to want to discuss it to death as it doesnt actually say TT in the regs, of those that dont do TT for LGSC how do you confirm it is safe? there are 2 points getting crossed over in these posts, the other being the need/desire to do a TT every time, as i have posted im not against it as long as the customer is made aware of the potential problems of finding a tiny leak, which with appliances connected is allowed to be left, i advise people to check with the customer BEFORE doing a TT that isnt mandatory purely to CYA if you find a tiny leak that requires a full re-pipe, because i know if you dont agree first and the customer finds out a TT isnt mandatory on a service then they will loan the face off you for costing then £100's, and we all know they will change their mind on the safety side of it when someone else tells them is wasnt mandatory

This thread and your comments Kirkgas have both been very helpful. I think if one was standing in the dock the prosecuter would be very interested if someone hadn't followed the recommendation, so although the regs don't say 'must' I reckon we all agree that it's still prudent to TT on a LGSC.
You make a good point on the servicing and the need/no need for TT the complete install and GSR state the same in one of their TBs. If the customer (when asked) reports no smell of gas then there is no need to TT, personally I still do, this has cost me greatly in time recently and it was a cost I was not comfortable to pass on to the customer in that particular instance. The main reason I'll continue to TT on servicing is ensure there is no letby on the ECV, I also use an electronic manometer and print out so I have a record of the snap shot in time...but then again I've always been a bit of a worrier

 

[tamz]

Kirk you are spot on with what you say and the reasons why.

I have just been playing a bit Devils Advocate here. Certainly got the conversation going and now some may know more than they did on Friday and some reasons behind it

 

[Bernie2]

Basically I suppose all you are doing is trying to find where the leak is?

Its been suggested that old appliances providing they are in well ventilated areas may have a very small allowable leak through wear. Personally I don't think they should.

The pipework should have no leak, basically it may be due to a failing joint that could pull apart at any time. I have seen joints on water mains just fluxed but they have held under pressure for months. Problem is move them and they leak a gas pipe has far less pressure so a fluxed joint may only show up with a very small drop.

 

[GQuigley67]

Basically I suppose all you are doing is trying to find where the leak is?

Its been suggested that old appliances providing they are in well ventilated areas may have a very small allowable leak through wear. Personally I don't think they should.

The pipework should have no leak, basically it may be due to a failing joint that could pull apart at any time. I have seen joints on water mains just fluxed but they have held under pressure for months. Problem is move them and they leak a gas pipe has far less pressure so a fluxed joint may only show up with a very small drop.

came across a 22mm gas pipe under the floors before and the straight coupling was just fluxed on, covered in green flux must of been like that for years maybe decades.

 

[stevetheplumber]

i had two socket formed couplings on a heating system that were fluxed and not soldered last 6 years before the showed as a brown mark on the ceiling

 

[fuzzy]

i went to an elbow on a heating system that must have been at least 10 years old, been fluxed but never soldered, i did a job on the rad valve and moved it when it started leaking

 

[plumbster3456]

Basically I suppose all you are doing is trying to find where the leak is?

Its been suggested that old appliances providing they are in well ventilated areas may have a very small allowable leak through wear. Personally I don't think they should.

The pipework should have no leak, basically it may be due to a failing joint that could pull apart at any time. I have seen joints on water mains just fluxed but they have held under pressure for months. Problem is move them and they leak a gas pipe has far less pressure so a fluxed joint may only show up with a very small drop.

seen fitting hold with flux under gravity pressure but never directly on the mains.
sometimes you pressurise up a combi heating system and no leaks but then you run heat5ing and with the heat it leaks so i suppose it happens crazy how it holds though

 

[kirkgas]

now we have moved onto dodgy fittings we have found, however lets not forget these have been found after a leak was identified these would NOT have been found on the previous TT's unless we were really doing our job and carrying out a full visual inspection as well, but thats another 4 page post haha

 

[tamz]

now we have moved onto dodgy fittings we have found, however lets not forget these have been found after a leak was identified these would NOT have been found on the previous TT's unless we were really doing our job and carrying out a full visual inspection as well, but thats another 4 page post haha

Wee true story

Dad (also a plumber btw) built a house in 1971. One night about 10 years later i come in half (full) canned about 2 in the morning and can smell gas. Have a sniff about and decide it is coming from under the kitchen floor. So using all the logic of at least 15 Volare and buckfast i roll the carpet up, go out to the van and get a hammer and bolster and a saw and start lifting the floor. Old man comes down the stairs like a raging bull, whit the fk are you doing?
You've got a gas leak.....SLAP get to bed..........
MA he's gassing ye, she's up.........SLAP get to bed.....so i retreated to my boudoir.

Up in the morning.....well about half 11 to a big fry up breakfast and praises from my ma. Seems my dad was an eejit and had never soldered it but it held a test and was fine for about 10 years

Gas is a low pressure of 20 odd mb. It doesn't take a lot of holding so always check as far as you can see

 

[shorticus]

Wee true story

Dad (also a plumber btw) built a house in 1971. One night about 10 years later i come in half (full) canned about 2 in the morning and can smell gas. Have a sniff about and decide it is coming from under the kitchen floor. So using all the logic of at least 15 Volare and buckfast i roll the carpet up, go out to the van and get a hammer and bolster and a saw and start lifting the floor. Old man comes down the stairs like a raging bull, whit the fk are you doing?
You've got a gas leak.....SLAP get to bed..........
MA he's gassing ye, she's up.........SLAP get to bed.....so i retreated to my boudoir.

Up in the morning.....well about half 11 to a big fry up breakfast and praises from my ma. Seems my dad was an eejit and had never soldered it but it held a test and was fine for about 10 years

Gas is a low pressure of 20 odd mb. It doesn't take a lot of holding so always check as far as you can see

Buckfast! good grief, you Scots baffle me lol