Advice when tightness testing and permissable drop found

[domtheplumb]

Hi , just wanting some opinions over what the correct procedure is when tightness testing a property with all appliances connected and no reported smell of gas ? for example a drop of 2.5 mb over the 2 min test period would be within tolerance of either gas meter . What would the next step be as I am at odds with another gsr engineer who suggests that the source of the drop must be found .I would welcome any advice thanks Dom

 

[Reg Man]

With appliances connected, permissible drop is allowed with no smell of gas. Obviously if there is a loss which could be due to minor leakage through valves on gas appliances. It is the engineers judgement whether they need to look into it further. Personally, I would isolate all appliances and re-test to ensure its not on the gas installation pipe. Re-check to identify which appliance is letting by and take corrective action if I felt there was a safety issue.

 

[domtheplumb]

Thanks for the advice reg man , just curious as to what gas safes stance on this is ?

 

[Reltub]

If the customer has confirmed they cant smell gas then you don't have to trace and repair.
If they can its I.D

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Hi , just wanting some opinions over what the correct procedure is when tightness testing a property with all appliances connected and no reported smell of gas ? for example a drop of 2.5 mb over the 2 min test period would be within tolerance of either gas meter . What would the next step be as I am at odds with another gsr engineer who suggests that the source of the drop must be found .I would welcome any advice thanks Dom

if you are GSR and the other person is , then this makes two of you . And both of you ned to go back to collage

 

[Reltub]

if you are GSR and the other person is , then this makes two of you . And both of you ned to go back to collage

Ouch.

 

[Reg Man]

Thanks for the advice reg man , just curious as to what gas safes stance on this is ?

Advice already given is Gas Safes stance.

 

[Chalked]

if you are GSR and the other person is , then this makes two of you . And both of you ned to go back to collage

So do you. It's college! Not collage! Only joking.

 

[domtheplumb]

Hi and thanks for all the replies ,phoned gas safe today and confirmed my thoughts were indeed correct ! it appears that only one of us need to go back to collage .

 

[SimonG]

Hi and thanks for all the replies ,phoned gas safe today and confirmed my thoughts were indeed correct ! it appears that only one of us need to go back to collage .

Welcome to the forum Dom. People don't like talking about gas where everyone can see it in case somebody uses the info that shouldn't and things go breast up.

If your gsr then you'll need to increase your post count to 10 or over and then send a private message (pm) to gasman or redsaw with your gsr details, they'll ask a couple of questions to confirm and then they'll allow you into the hallowed gsr only forum.

 

[domtheplumb]

Thanks for that welcome Sam ,working alone it sometimes helps to have your thoughts etc confirmed as being correct ,after all no one is infallible . not sure I will bother asking many more questions though as I don't really need the abuse and smug replies especially when something plays on your mind as this has for the last few days.

 

[domtheplumb]

if you are GSR and the other person is , then this makes two of you . And both of you ned to go back to collage

Comments like this don't really help!

 

[kirkgas]

Thanks for that welcome Sam ,working alone it sometimes helps to have your thoughts etc confirmed as being correct ,after all no one is infallible . not sure I will bother asking many more questions though as I don't really need the abuse and smug replies especially when something plays on your mind as this has for the last few days.

But you have to take your turn as the new boy so we can abuse you,it's the only fun we get
Most of it is harmless as long as you can take it as well as give it you will be fine, we all make mistakes, except tamz!!!!!!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

if you are referring to my post for abuse I would not agree , but I will be really really happy if you up your post and join the GSR part here and you will realise how friendly we all are here .....is just that we get lots of Q asked by MR.builders and Mr.DIY

 

[SafeGasInstall]

and KIRK ( he is the bible man ) he is the one that will answer all difficult regulation questions along with Reg Man
technical the god name is GAS MAN

 

[Dotty]

Dom

Word of advice. Wind it in.

I've been through the thread and no one has been untoward towards you. We have a strict rule regarding gas on UKPF.

Providing gas-related advice to anybody who should not be touching gas and cannot prove their competence is unacceptable. We will take whatever action we deem appropriate to prevent such advice being given

If you are gsr please increase your post count to 10+ then send a PM (Private Message) with your gsr details to either Gas man - View Profile: gas man - Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK or Redsaw - View Profile: REDSAW - Plumbing Forum | Plumbing Advice | Plumbers Forums | A forum for plumbers advice in the UK who will check you and then give you access to the gsr private forum.

Everyone has helped you and managed to stay within the guidelines.

 

[domtheplumb]

Wind it in ? fair enough didn't realise there was a separate forum for gsr engineers ,that's my mistake .Bit of background info for you I am a self employed plumber /gas fitter and the main part of my business (15years still going strong) is project managing bathroom refurbs and boiler / heating system design and installations .

 

[Dotty]

Good man, 3 more posts and you can join the gsr private forum.

Then another 90 and we'll get you in the Arms where we can abuse you properly while you buy us virtual drinks. You can also send requests to the online radio station that's adopted us!

 

[Rickster123]

Welcome to the forum Dom. Mostly a friendly and helpful bunch here. Mostly!

 

[Dotty]

Welcome to the forum Dom. Mostly a friendly and helpful bunch here. Mostly!

Forrest there is the exception though Dom

 

[Rickster123]

Im like the glue that holds it all together!

 

[domtheplumb]

ok I might be a little tetchy as its really been the week from hell for me , far too much work to do in too little time (always the case) .

 

[Dotty]

ok I might be a little tetchy as its really been the week from hell for me , far too much work to do in too little time (always the case) .

No worries Dom. You should see me when I'm on call. Everyone on here is on their best behaviour then!

2 to go!

 

[PETE 123]

Anyone who kant spell needs to go back to skool

 

[Dotty]

Don't start us off on that one pete!

 

[Ermintrude]

Eats shoots and leaves

 

[SimonG]

Great bunch of lads, cracking sense of humour and tons of info. Everyday is a school day.

 

[AWheating]

Eats shoots and leaves

man in chinese restaurant?

 

[AWheating]

welcome to the forum Dom. If you do alittle searching (maybe need to join the gs bit first) you will find a few large posts about the subject you have asked about. A bit of a split between members on here of those that would go beyond the regs or follow them but no further. Its one of those questions that we argue over 2 to 3 times a year on the forum with the same conclusion. stick around and join in the forum banter and you will find we arnt a bad bunch

 

[SafeGasInstall]

only join if you DONT have a Landrover and you DONT Do commercial pmsl

 

[Reg Man]

Pressure drop on LPG? ooooh.:13:

 

[Gary71]

Really?

You would leave a 2.5mb drop. Just because they couldn't smell it?

Would you leave a water leak because no one could see it?

If that was LPG it could be slowly filling a basement

Dangerous!

Should you ever leave a drop in a propert let me know. Just so I can make sure I don't live close

Do you know of any incident following a soundness test where a permissible drop had been left by a engineer on NG.

From my own experiences on NG I would have no fear leaving a permissible drop.

 

[Reltub]

Really?

You would leave a 2.5mb drop. Just because they couldn't smell it?

Would you leave a water leak because no one could see it?

If that was LPG it could be slowly filling a basement

Dangerous!

Should you ever leave a drop in a propert let me know. Just so I can make sure I don't live close

Better go about getting the regs changed then mate.

 

[REDSAW]

the best ones are those £50 cooker connect jobs (cooker 3 fires boiler & wall heater property) with a small drop, then you have to tell the customer your capping the supply until you pay me £600 for a new gas run to the 3rd floor/back room....luv.
its ok because its the middle of winter, last job of the day at 4;30pm on a bank holiday weekend...

tend to loose quite a few jobs for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
but heyho its more than likely on the 20m of gas pipe running outside the property?

 

[Ermintrude]

Better go about getting the regs changed then mate.

Better re read the regs. Igup/1b - that the old one? Drop on connected appliances ok if no smell of gas. Must verify that it's not on pipework! I can't find my copy on phone it's in van. Anyone have a copy for reference?

 

[tamz]

Must verify that it's not on pipework!

If no smell of gas, no need to isolate appliances to confirm where the drop is. Nothing has changed. That's why it is called permissible drop.
Whether you do or whether you don't is engineering judgement, ie down to you and your conscience. Just make sure you get it documented that there is an existing drop to cover your rse.

 

[Reg Man]

Better re read the regs. Igup/1b - that the old one? Drop on connected appliances ok if no smell of gas. Must verify that it's not on pipework! I can't find my copy on phone it's in van. Anyone have a copy for reference?

LPG testing is in BS5842 for small installations and IGEM UP 1A for larger installs.

 

[Ermintrude]

Found this while looking for a book, it's a s/a eddition.

 

[Reltub]

Found this while looking for a book, it's a s/a eddition.

Does this not clarify what I originally said?

And if like you said you have to confirm the pipework is sound by isolating the appliances, are you then happy to leave an appliance you know is leaking?

For the record i don't like to leave any leak on any job, was just quoting what i'd been taught at college.

 

[Ermintrude]

Regarding leaks on ex

 

[Ermintrude]

I never leave leeks, or onions.

 

[Gary71]

It's quite possible that the training procedure and ethos for testing gas has moved on since I served my apprenticeship, but before BG split you had a large body of engineers doing a lot of soundness tests who were safety conscious, leaving permissible drops where it met gas regs and not fearing a negative outcome.


I know of no incident now or then where a situation had occurred following a engineer leaving a permissible drop, if it had I think we'd be working to different regs.

So in the circumstances where i'v left a drop I feel happy it's safe to do so, but each to their own.









When I first started it was common place for the older gas fitters to check for leaks using a lit match, I decided not to use that procedure when a fitter I apprenticed for ended up in the living room from underneath the stairs cupboard without using any doors:wings: because he was trying to find a leak on the meter with a match(which obviously he found).

It's now quite possible with the passage of time that i'v become the old git with out dated working practises but until I end up in the living room I'll crack on.

 

[Kyle87]

Guy who taught me at college said when you do a tt and are just over the permissible drop, tighten all meter nuts and 9 times out of 10 that will get you back down under permissible drop.....then crack on.

Not quite sure I'd be comfortable leaving a 3.9mb drop on a U6.

 

[Kyle87]

Very sound guy, but a bit of a clown when it came to gas

 

[kirkgas]

Better re read the regs. Igup/1b - that the old one? Drop on connected appliances ok if no smell of gas. Must verify that it's not on pipework! I can't find my copy on phone it's in van. Anyone have a copy for reference?

"Must verify that it's not on pipework"
Are you saying this is a change in the new document?
I've read the doc and there's nothing like that in it, permissable drop on existing system with existing appliances connected is in a table, so by definition if you are allowed a permissable drop on existing with existing appliances you don't need to confirm where it is, HOWEVER if you choose to isolate the appliances and find a drop on the pipework you cannot leave it

 

[Ermintrude]

"Must verify that it's not on pipework"
Are you saying this is a change in the new document?
I've read the doc and there's nothing like that in it, permissable drop on existing system with existing appliances connected is in a table, so by definition if you are allowed a permissable drop on existing with existing appliances you don't need to confirm where it is, HOWEVER if you choose to isolate the appliances and find a drop on the pipework you cannot leave it

Yep. I'm making a u turn. Thought what I was told and what I do was inline with regs but those are the regs and I'm wrong ! Your statement is very concise and correct . I never leave anything more than 0.25mbar and a pebble dashed bowl tho as what I perceive as best practice . Also it is clear that a small leak is considered not to be a danger. From the second document .

 

[AWheating]

Not this again,somebody close this thread.

 

[Reltub]

Yay! We got there in the end.

 

[Nostrum]

Personally I'm happy to leave 2-3mb on both e6 and u6, anything more and I want to know where it's leaking. 99 times out of 100 it will either be at the meter, at the cooker bayonet or pipe work in a concrete floor without protection.

I also play the rules as I see sensible at the time, if the pipe works all outside bar a couple of feet and I check those internal sections for leaks and find nothing I feel happy to let it be. If the house is a gas pipe rats nest with old fire points everywhere and miles of pipe work ( normally older type houses) I am more wary. A bit of common sense goes a long way IMO.

 

[REDSAW]

your confusing 'new installed gas supply and appliances' with existing!

otherwise, why do you think there is not an alarm system required to be installed on all gas installations capeable of picking up any drop of say 1mb or more?
quite simple cheap and effective solution..because it is not required!