Working pressure.

[diamondgas]

Hi all interested What are your thoughts on undersized pipework and poor supply pressure?

A friend asked me to check out his mothers boiler today! Installed in 2010 under the Keep Newcastle Warm lot, the freebie given to older customers by the local authorities I believe?

Boiler installed is a vaillant 824 Combi. Inlet working pressure 13mbar, meter 20mbar working. That is quite a significant drop and there is also a gas fire on the same supply!
"what do you think I should do Steve?" he asked me!!
I suggested he contacted the installer first of all see what they're gonna do! Then suggested if he gets no joy there he should contact Gas Safe! Bear in mind i am here kind of arms length, unofficial!

He rang me back; Installer not interested as it has not been brought to there attention before now and has been maintained regularly!!! I checked the servicing paperwork whilst i was there, the service guy, in my opinion, made up the figures, said the boiler was 28kW imput working!

He rang Gas Safe, not interested! Whoever he talked to seemed to fob him off with something about gas leaking or fumes was their only interest!!!

So KNW fitted a boiler substandard off a gas fire 15mm supply and the custard, OAP, appears to have to foot the bill!

Anyone know of any other advice I could suggest to my pal to help him get the installer back? Or am I wrong in laying the blame on them?

 

[Rickster123]

Hi diamond, just out of interest how was the boiler performing? Was the lady happy with the heating and hot water?

 

[quality]

I am not to sure on the legal front but I have gas rated many boilers with a pressure drop over 3-4 mbar and most have been fine (some have not) coupled with correct FGA readings I do not see what we can do other than record the details on a cp12 and advise

 

[diamondgas]

Hi diamond, just out of interest how was the boiler performing? Was the lady happy with the heating and hot water?

Must admit i didn't want to get to involved as I honestly thought it would be a formality for my pal to get it sorted! However they didn't complain of any issues other than the gas fire flame "lowering" when the bath was run! After the phone call I said I could attend 'officially' if need be if they didn't get things sorted but would rather the installers foot the bill for their poor installation.

 

[diamondgas]

I am not to sure on the legal front but I have gas rated many boilers with a pressure drop over 3-4 mbar and most have been fine (some have not) coupled with correct FGA readings I do not see what we can do other than record the details on a cp12 and advise

Cheers quality ... I too have found that gas rate wise they're fine. however its how they effect other appliances that bothers me and the fact that the installers didn't register this or do anything about it

 

[quality]

I agree mate

 

[SimonJohns]

In the defence of the warm front
You can get a 4mb drop across valve but even then. The mi state it must have above 17.

Shouldn't gas safe pick this one up as a saftey issue. Especially since I was slated for leaving 3" of overflow outside before the upgrade in pipe size. I would of said that this is a far bigger and more important issue than a condense

 

[wnjswozo]

from what i,ve heard about these lads who are working on the warm front contracts,they are worked half to death,and i can see how they cut corners on piping up gas,to boiler,ie picking up 15mm feeds under floors,

 

[diamondgas]

In the defence of the warm front
You can get a 4mb drop across valve but even then. The mi state it must have above 17.

Shouldn't gas safe pick this one up as a saftey issue. Especially since I was slated for leaving 3" of overflow outside before the upgrade in pipe size. I would of said that this is a far bigger and more important issue than a condense

I totally agree Simon!

My pal on behalf of his mother via me...lol... Seemed to be gettin the run around! In my mind trully unbelievable!! I thought it an obvious install mistake that needed rectified! However all parties are wiping their hands by the looks of it! Grrrrrrr

 

[diamondgas]

from what i,ve heard about these lads who are working on the warm front contracts,they are worked half to death,and i can see how they cut corners on piping up gas,to boiler,ie picking up 15mm feeds under floors,

I know where you're comming from but still no excuse IMHO ... I'd be okay with a couple of Mbar's to be honest but 13mb is nearly half the requirement of the boiler manufacturer and fire!!

 

[Mike Jackson]

Has the gas fire got a FSD? If not this could be a serious issue. Undergassing an appliance with a flame failure device is one thing but when it is affecting another it becomes a lot more serious in my books.

 

[diamondgas]

Has the gas fire got a FSD? If not this could be a serious issue. Undergassing an appliance with a flame failure device is one thing but when it is affecting another it becomes a lot more serious in my books.

Yeh Mike it was insatalled a year before the boiler and has an FSD! I didn't check it's working pressure or what the MI's request! As said i want to keep as wide a berth from this as possible, Only because I think the installer should rectify the fault. I also am appaled as gas Safe's response to be honest!

 

[AWheating]

whats the warranty period? i think its 2 years on these jobs?

i would be tempted to get them the phone warm front up and say that the installation has been AR, turned off etc.... and request its fixed under warranty. Even if the warranty period is up its a latent defect in that its a fault in design and installation and not a fault from use or wear.

The problem with this sort of thing is its tax payers money paying for illegal poor work, if you/they complain hard enough they should get somewhere hopefully. I think there is an offical complaints proceedure you can go throught to report the defects.

 

[diamondgas]

I like that AWheating! and agree ... 2 years is up in april! My concern is that Gas Safe aren't interested when Joe Publlic phone up with a serious concern involving potentialy At Risk situations! I really don't want to go down them lines of getting involved to be honest but it seems such a shame that the powers that be and the installers are shaking their hands! *sigh*

 

[CMairiD]

Any of the local rags interested in picking up the story? See they can be shamed into fixing it.

 

[diamondgas]

Any of the local rags interested in picking up the story? See they can be shamed into fixing it.

I Like that, I suggested 'Age Concern' or their local MP .. they love some lime light those folk

I question why Gas safe fobed them off though?? Not for their statististics I imagine? That peas me off! Our own governing body not interested in such trivia!! *sigh*

 

[diamondgas]

The mi's of the boiler ask for 20mb, by the way.

I hate this area to be honest coz i come from an era that didn't intrinsically test WP! Like at cookers that require 20mb, and gas fires the same! What if they haven't got the 20mb? At what stage does it become At Risk? Honestly after 34 yrs I do not know! There is nothing in the GSIUR that will give a limit to minimum presure and catagory, so its down to the individual it seems!

 

[AWheating]

if you had seen the warmfront install they did at my mothers house you would have been shocked. My dad was blind for the last 30 odd years of his life and he would have fitted it better, it was a good job he was not alive to see how bad it was. I have not seen one installed without major faults yet. They even registered the boiler to a house 60 miles away and mine and your taxes pay for this work.

i let them install it cus it was free, but i had to repipe the entire heating system and even rewire the controls.

 

[GrahamM]

The mi's of the boiler ask for 20mb, by the way.

I hate this area to be honest coz i come from an era that didn't intrinsically test WP! Like at cookers that require 20mb, and gas fires the same! What if they haven't got the 20mb? At what stage does it become At Risk? Honestly after 34 yrs I do not know! There is nothing in the GSIUR that will give a limit to minimum presure and catagory, so its down to the individual it seems!

This is my understanding:

There is no minimum pressure so to speak.

If pipework is undersized and boiler operating to full rate etc. it is just NCS.
If cannot reach full rate it is AR as long as flame picture/stability look good. Your expert judgement come into play here.
If flame stability affected it is obviously ID. Again, your expert judgement.

This comes down to expert opinion of the individual looking at a particular appliance. All cases are different.
A particular example that comes up often is a 30 year old bermuda bbu that does not reach the max 18 MB. Technically this is AR, but I just note it down as NCS as I am returning it to it's middle setting of 10MB anyway and all is fine at that.

 

[mountainman]

I had a similar experience some years ago.
BG moved the meter to a box on outside wall and ran a 15mm supply to connect to the gas fire feed, never considered the combi boiler two rooms away.
BG denied negligence and CORGI weren't interested.

 

[Mike Jackson]

if you had seen the warmfront install they did at my mothers house you would have been shocked. My dad was blind for the last 30 odd years of his life and he would have fitted it better, it was a good job he was not alive to see how bad it was. I have not seen one installed without major faults yet. They even registered the boiler to a house 60 miles away and mine and your taxes pay for this work.

i let them install it cus it was free, but i had to repipe the entire heating system and even rewire the controls.

Having worked for Iguana/eagaheat/CES for 5 1/2 years I've seen some diabolical installs done under the warmfront scheme. I used to get a bit defensive about it because I, and the local guys working with me, used to make sure we did a decent job every time. I managed to get myself a reputation as a problem solver and ended up getting pulled off installs for half of the time and put on remedial works. A lot of the work was very shoddy and downright dangerous at times.

 

[diamondgas]

if you had seen the warmfront install they did at my mothers house you would have been shocked. My dad was blind for the last 30 odd years of his life and he would have fitted it better, it was a good job he was not alive to see how bad it was. I have not seen one installed without major faults yet. They even registered the boiler to a house 60 miles away and mine and your taxes pay for this work.

i let them install it cus it was free, but i had to repipe the entire heating system and even rewire the controls.

Now isn't that ridiculous that they can get away with such poor workmanship especially for the more vunerable OAP's etc. What purpose does Gas Safe serve I also wonder? I can see me renewing the gas suply and them having to pay for work that should have been done by the installer!!

 

[mikegas]

The mi's of the boiler ask for 20mb, by the way.

I hate this area to be honest coz i come from an era that didn't intrinsically test WP! Like at cookers that require 20mb, and gas fires the same! What if they haven't got the 20mb? At what stage does it become At Risk? Honestly after 34 yrs I do not know! There is nothing in the GSIUR that will give a limit to minimum presure and catagory, so its down to the individual it seems!

If you find low working pressure at an appliance, you need re check with All other appliances running at the same time, if any appliance is effected ie the fire dropping as you say or min burner pressure not acheived, then it's AR

 

[diamondgas]

If you find low working pressure at an appliance, you need re check with All other appliances running at the same time, if any appliance is effected ie the fire dropping as you say or min burner pressure not acheived, then it's AR

Yeh I know Mike, cheers! I'm probably gonna have to go back in an official capacity to try and help him get warmfront back to rectify the pipework!

 

[southcoastboile]

The mi's of the boiler ask for 20mb, by the way.

I hate this area to be honest coz i come from an era that didn't intrinsically test WP! Like at cookers that require 20mb, and gas fires the same! What if they haven't got the 20mb? At what stage does it become At Risk? Honestly after 34 yrs I do not know! There is nothing in the GSIUR that will give a limit to minimum presure and catagory, so its down to the individual it seems!

As far as I know its AR when under 19mbar and ID when effecting flame picture so realisticly you could ID it on the fire dropping when hw tap on, trouble is the whole thing is flawed, at high peek times when gas is being used there is often insufficiant pressure from the mains to start with, imo this should never be allowed to happen, the gas supplier should have to make sure every house has correct incomming pressure at any given time.
AR if maintaining bp or fga ok, ID if effecting flame picture, not getting min bp or fga incorrect

 

[Nostrum]

I think if it was carried out by a sub contractor, they have to supply a 5-6 year warranty on shoddy work, the 2 years is for defective parts. I know my old boss had a bond retained for this period of time to cover defects that needed remedial work if he went bust..

Not sure how it all works now as they have lost a lot of pace recently and Carrillion have taken over from Eaga. My experience of Carrillion is that they can't organise a crap in a lavatory. I know a few years ago they were very hot on customer complaints and getting a local councillor involved normally got things moving pretty quick!

Did you contact Eaga/Carrillion/Warmfront or the installer direct?

 

[goz666]

I think sambotc is correct, 6 year period for faulty or poor installation work. I went to one about three years ago that had been in about five years and had never worked right. Contacted Baxi for advice regarding the install and they said it's ID far as they're concerned, customer got trading standards in and that was under warmfront,they got called back after all that time and told to put it right, which they did.

 

[stevetheplumber]

good to know gas safe arent interested in undergassing going to save me lots of money on 28mm tube infact no point in using 22 anymore just wang it in 15 and out the door

 

[diamondgas]

good to know gas safe arent interested in undergassing going to save me lots of money on 28mm tube infact no point in using 22 anymore just wang it in 15 and out the door

They're interested in checking out you're new installs Steve. Just not in helping out someone who's had a poorly installed boiler a year and a half ago it seems

 

[CES]

Having worked for Iguana/eagaheat/CES for 5 1/2 years I've seen some diabolical installs done under the warmfront scheme. I used to get a bit defensive about it because I, and the local guys working with me, used to make sure we did a decent job every time. I managed to get myself a reputation as a problem solver and ended up getting pulled off installs for half of the time and put on remedial works. A lot of the work was very shoddy and downright dangerous at times.

Nothing to do with me! I wish they would use their proper title.. giving me a bad name!:73:

 

[Reg Man]

Get back in touch with Gas Safe Register, they are fobbing you off. State that the appliances flames are being effected by the restrictive pipework, which makes it AR or ID catorgory in the industry unsafe situations proceedure , published by gas safe register. Therefore the work is unsafe and it is their job to investigate complaints about unsafe gas work. If that don't work complain about Gas safe register not doing what thier supossed to do, to your MP.