Worcester 18/25 Heat slave

[Dannypipe]

Called to commission a WB - 18/25 Heatslave.

Customer was out, so I called Worcester to get the figures.

I set up the air, and pump pressure, and couldn't get the CO2 anywhere close. Was aiming for 12.5 and could at best get to 10.

So called Worcester again, who told me to play with the air settings to try and get it right. Which I did, and could improve it and got up to 10, but no higher.

Going to call them again on Monday.

Anyone any thoughts?

BTW - I didn't check the nozzle was what it says it should be. I had already taken burner off to check end of nozzle as this boiler has been on uncommisioned for two months. (I was only called in as it is apparently locking out sporadically)

Settings were all wrong, but checked

 

[Dotty]

12.5? Bit high for my liking! What pump pressure you got?

 

[Dannypipe]

150 psi.

 

[Dotty]

That's over 10 bar! Bugger me! Knock it back to 8 bar or 130 psi. Then try adjusting the air.

 

[kimbo]

Mid range setting with .55 nozle is 145psi co2 12. Air setting about 6. Try settings with air snorkel removed just in case they have buggered the flue seals. I woul do vo2 at 11 to 11.5

 

[Dannypipe]

I just set the PSI to what WB told me. I did say to the lad working for me "christ that's 10bar".

I've left it at 150 psi, and air at 8 as they said they wanted it for the nozzle I quoted. I can't remember now what nozzle it was.

I wish I had removed the snorkel now.

I don't do enough oil work to be as experienced as you fellas, so I just did what I was told. At those settings, CO2 was about 8.5/9.

It's possible they have buggered the seals, as it was the customers dad who fitted the boiler,though I am told he is a retired plumber.

Do you think I should call Worcester to go look at it on warranty for the fella?

 

[Dannypipe]

That's over 10 bar! Bugger me! Knock it back to 8 bar or 130 psi. Then try adjusting the air.

You think I'd see more change if the pressure was down mate?

 

[kimbo]

Most oil boilers are set at mid range so if that is correct in this case you should have a .55 nozzle. The settings they have quoted are for the next size up. If you increase the air you decresse the co2 so if the air is 8 for co2 of 9 if you adjusted air down to about 6 you should see the co2 increase. Do this with air snorkel disconnected first. If the sesls have been bugheted and its essily done that would account for the earlier lockouts.

 

[Dotty]

I do, yeah. Take the snorkel off first as kimbo said.

And do a smoke test before you stick your analyser in.

 

[Dannypipe]

Cheers fellas.

I smoke tested it first.

My analyser is playing up. Dodgy connection on the probe. It's due in for calibration anyway, but can't be without it until next week.

So I was in the freezing rain, and the CO2 was just not shifting. Then kept going blank cos' of the dodgy connection, I put the air all the way up to 9 (doh) and saw pretty much no change. (I should have been turning air down).

So set it back to 8.

It's just come to me, it was a 0.65 nozzle.

Anyway, thanks a lot chaps.

 

[lame plumber]

Greenstar Danesmoor WM 18/25 literature - Worcester, Bosch Group UK installer site

have a peek at page 33 me thinks your muddling nozzle sizes versus settings as mentioned unless you have a stirling burner which for a .65/80 eh is 150 psi and air setting of 8 giving co2 of 12.5 but for a riello with a ,65/60 eh is 120 psi air setting of 3 giving co2 of 12, so burner model dependant!

 

[Dannypipe]

I didn't have the manual to hand! Customer had locked it inside. So I quoted WB the nozzle and they gave me the settings.

I think you are right though.

It was definetly a Riello burner. That much I am sure about. I think I'll be popping back tomorrow to set the boiler up again.

Oh dear. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Killy Bing]

Where is the job dan

 

[lame plumber]

thought you youngsters all had mobiles and ipads to look things up when manuals go missing

 

[Dannypipe]

Didn't have the manual on my laptop. Plus it was dark and pi$$ing with rain!

Job is near you Billy! Only charged £100.00

Also noticed, no fire valve, and soak away put in right next to the building. So will send an advisory on that. You think I shouldn't register it until he's put that straight?

 

[Dannypipe]

thought you youngsters all had mobiles and ipads to look things up when manuals go missing

PS - I'm 35!!

 

[lame plumber]

Like I said and if no fire valve, I wouldnt sign it off for commissioning paperwork as its not iaw mfis or building regs

 

[Dannypipe]

BTW - Billy pricing up a Monster job. If and it's a big if, I get it. I will def' want you on board mate.

 

[Killy Bing]

BTW - Billy pricing up a Monster job. If and it's a big if, I get it. I will def' want you on board mate.

I like to hear this, remember I'm no where near speedy and fit the apprentice role more than a full blown engineers still.

want me to pop along tomorrow?
Can use my analyser as yours is playing silly buggers and two heads can be better than one!

We were changing over oil tanks today for ali, steel bunded one! Lovely piece of kit.
i did not appreciate the 30 metre last minute trench i had to dig!

only 100!! I'll have to put my prices up!

 

[EPH]

Monster job? Tell us more............

 

[SimonG]

I wouldnt be setting a wb at 12.5 co2. Heading for problems. Id want to see it a tad under 11.5.

 

[Dannypipe]

LOL - I've PM'd you about the job mate. As for the boiler, I will have to call the bloke tomorrow to make sure he's home.

£100 sounds expensive, but I was there two hours, and had my lad with me, who's cost me £10 an hour. So with fuel, and registration fees, not a great earner. No idea how two hours went past, but they did. Probably dicking around trying to call WB twice, and checking the baffles, oh and waiting 20 mins for the customer!

 

[Dannypipe]

Monster job? Tell us more............

House nearly 1000 square meters. New build. Full system, inc solar. UFH on ground floor, rad's on first/second. All zoned. Plus bathrooms. For me, that's a nice (monster) job.

 

[EPH]

In case you need it

 

[Dannypipe]

Think I need this app. I didn't have internet connection though!

 

[EPH]

House nearly 1000 square meters. New build. Full system, inc solar. UFH on ground floor, rad's on first/second. All zoned. Plus bathrooms. For me, that's a nice (monster) job.

Sounds nice and relatively straight forward. If you have plans do you want me to see what I'd charge as a comparison?

I'm in Machynlleth Mid Wales, no intention of trying to steal your work!

 

[Dannypipe]

and.....I've PM'd you!!

 

[SimonG]

Id have been worried that the paperwork wasnt there. If you are commissioning then you neex the benchmark. The benchmark is in the back of the mi's. I commission a few and if its not upto spec then its on the cd11 but still registered. Roll on mid january. No more commissioning. I aint re doing my oftec.

 

[Dannypipe]

I waited 20 mins for him to arrive, and I filled in the Benchmark. I was soaked, so I wrote all down and will fill in the CD11 tomorrow and post it to him.

I don't know what to do re - registering it now. As I agree with Lame in a lot of ways.

With gas work, I don't ever commision other peoples installs, but as it seems par for the course with oil (I paid for commissioning for years) I have done a couple. Only one that's not been spot on to date. Would you believe it, the client is a builder!!?

 

[EPH]

All this talk of £100 services, I go to about 1 at least every other month of an "engineer" that charges £40 cash to do a service. I go because within 2 months tops they break down but he tells them he doesn't do fault finding, just services.

Im im yet to actually see what he does for that money. No new nozzle or fuel hose, doesn't take the baffles out and on new boilers doesn't clean the trap.

You ou must all see chancers like this as well?

 

[Dannypipe]

One of the reasons I don't do a lot on the oil side, is that I don't carry the spares. You need to carry about £250 worth of nozzles to turn up and have a a half decent chance of having the right one on board. New hoses too.

So if and when I service an oil boiler, I'll tend to pop in check what the nozzle is (normally by looking at the old one the previous engineer left) and then pop to the merchants and pick one up.

I prefer gas servicing if I'm totally honest. I charge a bit less, but it's easier.

If you don't check the baffles, change the hose, and nozzle, I think it's hardly worth it.

 

[Dannypipe]

I'm hitting the sack. Knackered. Thanks everyone.

Don't know what to do now, regards registering it! Think I may pop back tomorrow. Billy, give me a bell, and we can meet there if you want. It's about ten minutes from your place.

 

[EPH]

Just text one of my lads as we fitted one last week in a pub. Said the CO2 was about 10.5 pre set but the pump pressure was way out, he adjusted that and it was fine. I think it may be printed wrong in the book for some of them though because he said there was an additional sheet of paper in the instructions with them all on.

 

[Killy Bing]

Had abit more of a think about this!
18/25 upto 2012 had bentone burners.
after that they had riellos and a disk inside for setting but this should be in the same positions for all outputs on the 18/25

for a .65 es it should be 120 psi and 12% co2

i think they gave you the old versions info over the phone!

 

[Dannypipe]

I've think you're right. It's annoying cos I won't get paid to go all the way back (an hour round trip) and it's worcester who have given me the wrong info. After I gave them all the correct info. Even gave them serial no of boiler, burner and nozzle.

So I think they should go back to put it right now. Effectively I have just been brought in to commission it and haven't been able to achieve the figures the manufacturer gave me.

Don't know your thoughts?

 

[EPH]

Right in theory but not a hope.

 

[Bunker]

Dont the wb have the specs on the label inside? I thought they did...

Personally I wouldnt commission it, Id see the fire valve etc and give him a list of what needs doing before even getting my meter out. Id charge him £45 for my time and tell him to call when its installed to standard. When thats done Id go back and set it up.

Did you stick your probe deeply into the black hole? On the WB you need to stick it in about 4 or 5 inches to get right into the flue way to get the right readings for some reason, just through the hole wont cut it and will give you what you are experiencing.

 

[kimbo]

I hope you checked to make sure that it was signed off by building control you will neef the number for your form or the oftec installers number otherwise you cant commission it

 

[lame plumber]

I hope you checked to make sure that it was signed off by building control you will neef the number for your form or the oftec installers number otherwise you cant commission it

if your the oftec guy commissioning it, its buildings control that wants your paperwork!

 

[kimbo]

Extract from planning portal.
In some cases householders may decide to engage a firm that is not a member of one of the approved Competent Person schemes. In this case the installer will not be able to self-certify that their work is compliant, and the firm or the householder will need to give notice to your Local Authority of the intention to carry out the boiler work in advance, and pay a notification fee.* Local Authority Building Control may choose to check the works have been carried out to the necessary standards and may employ a registered installer to do this.When works have been completed the installer should then produce for you a commissioning certificate such as a Benchmark certificate and notify the local* authority building control department either directly, or, if a member of a* Competent Person Scheme, via the scheme operator.* In due course the local authority should supply you with a Building Regulations Completion Certificate that indicates compliance.Guidance on installing boiler and other combustion appliances, and the building provisions that are necessary to safely accommodate them (air supplies, hearths, fireplaces, flues and chimneys) can be found in*Approved Document J.

 

[Bunker]

I hope you checked to make sure that it was signed off by building control you will neef the number for your form or the oftec installers number otherwise you cant commission it

On the CD11 its a check box that asks if the CD10 was present and completed - thats yes or no. It then asks if not, blah blah is there a building control number, yes or no.
I just tick no where appropriate. When I do the notification I just notify the commissioning, not the installation. Nothing wrong with that as far as we are concerned but I do tell the custard that the installation wont be registered and if BC come looking, your installer will have to ask for retrospective.
I ran this by by OFTEC inspector a couple of weeks ago and he confirmed thats exactly the correct route.

 

[kimbo]

The regulations are quite precise if not approved by building control or not installed by oftec installer or othet vompetent petson then its an illegal installation and you cant commission it.
Check your building regs

 

[lame plumber]

seems then that theres an awful lot of illegal installs out there, but I have yet to see anyone prosecuted as oftec is a waste of space in hunting down illegals, and BC is happy to take your cd 11 as proof the systems ok and grant a retrospective or completion notice to the householder. After all if theres anything wrong I'm not going to sign off a system, unless I am paid to bring it up to spec and then everything will comply anyhow. Not the best way of doing things but thats how it is till someone starts enforcing the so called regs.

 

[kimbo]

We know there are a lot of illegsl installs. Manufacturers used to commission boilers that plumberd installed because they would sell more boilers. Oftec took them to task and they dont do it any more. I was at a heating show about 8yrs ago when the oftec contingent pointed out the regs

 

[lame plumber]

and in the intervening 8 years whats changed? NOTHING TO MY KNOWLEDGE

bleeding caps lock and breathe

 

[Dannypipe]

I've had a busy day today so haven't managed to speak to the client or go back over there. I'll call him tomorrow. I'm going to fill the cd11 in. Note no fire valve. Register the boiler with Worcester Bosch and tell them to go out to it.

The don't have the figures in the boiler. Just the nozzle on the data plate.

They have me the info. Whether it was right looks doubtful.

I won't register it with building control via OFTEC until the fire valve is fitted. I think that's fair and reasonable.

The clients dad fitted the boiler and system (ex plumber apparently) so if he wants to fit a fire valve I will pop back and check its in the right position and sign it off.

I had oil boilers signed off for years. People openly advertise the service of signing off oil boilers. It's not the same as with gas. As I said I won't sign off a gas install but with oil appliances it seems common practice.

 

[Dannypipe]

Lots of typos there. Sorry. On my phone.

 

[Bunker]

The regulations are quite precise if not approved by building control or not installed by oftec installer or othet vompetent petson then its an illegal installation and you cant commission it.
Check your building regs

With immense respect, I think you're mistaken. Ive just now emailed my local inspector for the 'party line' but notification of a commission isnt dependant on notification of an correct installation. This is why there are 2 separate options on the Works Notification portal. So when commissioning, you are not beholden to a notifiable install...

Reading the small print on the CD11 IMPORTANT COMMENTS:
The comments may include advice on remedial work necessary to enable the installation to comply with the requirements of the Building Regs, Control of Pollution and British Standards

So, part of the commission is to make a note of any failures to comply. I cant find anywhere that says "This installation complies with Building Regs etc.....signed...."

Im having self-doubts now about the whole procedure...

 

[lame plumber]

http://www.oftec.co.uk/Media/Default/DocGalleries/Tech Book Updates/AMD_02_0413_07.pdf

if you then self certify it, I presume it has to be fault free

 

[Bunker]

http://www.oftec.co.uk/Media/Default/DocGalleries/Tech Book Updates/AMD_02_0413_07.pdf

if you then self certify it, I presume it has to be fault free

to show compliance with the building, health, safety and efficiency regulatory requirements and the manufacturers service
and commissioning instructions. This also enables the technician to record any
discrepancies or concerns they have with the installation as found.

Its still a bit wooly..