renewable

[hammers4spanner]

Just started on a large site of block of flats which is all gas

when i asked the mechanical company (which aint a small one) how come no renewables here they simply said its carp and its not all that its cracked to be.They have been ripping out and re converting to gas alot of renewables that have been installed .

Also a huge mechanical company i recently worked for said the same that reneables are crap

now this is not the first time i have heard this over the last year

do you guys think we are being sold a fast one?

 

[kris]

Id like to hear outcome of this thread as im getting my air source , ground source and solar thermal later this year ,,, but i 2 am interested to what everyone thinks, me personally your average household havent the spare cash to spend on some of these systems, its more your slightly higher in ladder folks,

 

[hammers4spanner]

Im interested on opinions as well because I'm hearing more and more negatives regarding this fuel alternative. Was thinking myself about getting on board the bandwagon , my neighbour has had solar done and said it's carp wouldn't bother.

Now some big firms have worked for have been negative about it,

Starting to make me wonder

 

[IDCHAPPY]

It's a multi billion pound industry so they must be doing something right, but if it's not designed or installed correctly and the installation place isn't designed or built correctly then there's going to be problems.
From 2016 there is *supposed* to be no new gas lines going into new housing schemes. ..

 

[Nostrum]

This isn't anything new, half the continent have used these technologies for years and well.

The difference is they need to be designed and installed correctly. Something that doesn't come cheap compared to any old lad who can chuck a combi on the wall and hey presto.

Which solar are you referring to? P.V or thermal? Both work, ones is more viable than the other in terms of payback.

 

[IDCHAPPY]

I'm going to be doing the courses as well soon as I'm also interested in them .
Might manage to squeeze some PV on my roof in the future

 

[Ray Stafford]

For what its worth, here's my two pennoth.

I think the whole renewable thing has been oversold to the public and the industry. I don't think that the general public is anything like so "green" as they were before 2008/9. Without getting into the whole "oh-yes-it-is, oh-no-it-isn't" climate change debate, it is no longer political or academic suicide to question the green consensus.

Now the government has backed off some of its requirements for zero carbon, and more or less in the same breath has announced plans to ease the way for more fracking.

A little experience has also taught us that it ain't so easy to retrofit green technology, and whilst its much easier in model show-houses, its also not so easy in smaller brownfield sites - particularly when converting other structures for residential use.

I predict a much more gradual (and sensible) take up of renewable technology over two to three decades, led by solar thermal and some ASHP. I also expect to see heat recovery become more main-stream outside of new build. I still expect to be selling gas and oil boilers on the day that retire - probably in 19 years time.

 

[Worcester]

Designed AND installed AND commissioned properly renewables based heating systems works just fine, no, more than that it works great!

Quality assurance in all elements is paramount, and therein lies the problem.

Having contributed to a number of threads the number of people involved in installing boiler and radiators that don't know how to size a system or do heat loss calculations is sad reflection on the 'traditional' plumber.

You have to size the heat generator correctly, you have to size the emitters correctly, you need to design the hydraulics correctly (buffers etc)
You then need to ensure it is installed to the design !
You then need to commission them correctly and finally educate the user how it works.

Leave it to Jo Bloggs GSR plumber and it WILL go wrong. - There again look how many threads there are of carp installed gas heating systems and how many people have problems with them - shed loads.

I do not get involved in the Climate change / sustainability discussions with clients, I do show them how a properly designed, installed commissioned and USED, renewables based heating system can and will save them money.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Just to make it clear Gordon - I am not saying the don't work when, as you say, they are properly designed, installed, commissioned and used.

But whereas a few years ago, it looked like there was a rising and irreversible trend, now I just don't feel it. In 2011 and 2012, I couldnt have a meeting with a big supplier without them ramming renewables down my throat. Only one company has mentioned it to me in the last 6 months.

 

[SimonG]

I was waiting for Worcesters reply , and anticipated the content. Exactly what I would expect from a professional on the renewables installation supply.

However, climate change is gonads, there is scientific evidence that the climate of the earth is cyclic. Its been hotter than this before (without good old homosapien pumping out co2 thinning the ozone) and its been a damn site cooler. It goes around and comes around.

Anyway, the threads not about that.

Now renewables, I know very little about the renewables side, except im not impressed with all these schemes, additional green taxes and the fact that by paying your green taxes one of the smaller countries in the world is going to greatly reduce its carbon footprint. Especially when you have emerging economies spewing out co2. China springs to mind.

I honestly cant remember the last time a customer asked about renewables.

In fact I think renewables shouldnt be called renewables at all. Maybe they should be called alternatives. Its also really funny that it seems to be people that, shall we say, are better off that opt for renewables. Perhaps it makes them feel better about driving round in there 6 litre range rovers doing four gallons to the mile.

To all those making a living off the back of it, crack on and long may it last. Im just waiting for the arse to fall out of the bio mass

 

[Ermintrude]

If arsenal falls out of bio mass gonna be a lot of cold schools and hospitals

 

[efficiencyman]

It`s a bit of a sad state when much of the industry can`t come forward in a positive way. What hope is there for joe bloggs to become informed, save themselves some wonga, burn less fossil fuel, be cosy without the costs, breathe fresh air with MVHR, etc. etc. When even the industry front line has such a negative attitude and understanding of how renewables could work successfully. One thing for certain is that renewables need to be fully understood by the trade installers before it will be taken up in big numbers by anyone other than enlightened greenies.

 

[kris]

Thats exactly it simon , like i said in an earlier post your average joe public will never in his life purchase any renewable heat source , even if hes offered a payment scheme it just wont happen, renewables are priced for slightly higher up the earnings ladder , I think also the way the gov has handled the MCS has been diabolical and theyve made so hard to keep track of wots wot when it could have been made so simple,,,,,

 

[hammers4spanner]

Designed AND installed AND commissioned properly renewables based heating systems works just fine, no, more than that it works great!

Quality assurance in all elements is paramount, and therein lies the problem.

Having contributed to a number of threads the number of people involved in installing boiler and radiators that don't know how to size a system or do heat loss calculations is sad reflection on the 'traditional' plumber.

You have to size the heat generator correctly, you have to size the emitters correctly, you need to design the hydraulics correctly (buffers etc)
You then need to ensure it is installed to the design !
You then need to commission them correctly and finally educate the user how it works.

Leave it to Jo Bloggs GSR plumber and it WILL go wrong. - There again look how many threads there are of carp installed gas heating systems and how many people have problems with them - shed loads.

I do not get involved in the Climate change / sustainability discussions with clients, I do show them how a properly designed, installed commissioned and USED, renewables based heating system can and will save them money.

My point are it's not small had firms that are designing these systems it's massive mechanical engineering firms that I have worked for are now saying they are not good .

Firms that lead the way in these sorts of technologies

As for Europe and renewables Germany is sliding towards gas again

 

[hammers4spanner]

Ray has basically stated what I am seeing a green trend that seems to be hitting the buffers a tad

 

[SimonG]

It`s a bit of a sad state when much of the industry can`t come forward in a positive way. What hope is there for joe bloggs to become informed, save themselves some wonga, burn less fossil fuel, be cosy without the costs, breathe fresh air with MVHR, etc. etc. When even the industry front line has such a negative attitude and understanding of how renewables could work successfully. One thing for certain is that renewables need to be fully understood by the trade installers before it will be taken up in big numbers by anyone other than enlightened greenies.

No, its a sad state when there is very little to be positive about. It's been overhyped for political gains. They should have just chucked the money at insulation.

 

[Nostrum]

They have. Most of ECO funding is going towards insulation. The problem with all of the government subsidies is that there is always someone trying to abuse the system to make a fortune, rather than help the cause they were initially released for.

From my experience, most of the negativity is from the mis informed, or those who won't accept change.

Renewables have their place, so does gas and in some instances, oil. There is no 1 technology that fits the bill for all situations, it is about diversity.

With regard to fracking, the expert are now saying extracting it in the UK is now going to be a whole lot more complicated than they had hoped, the shale is layered differently to that in the U.S so more fracturing is required for less product. it sounds like a disaster waiting to happen if you ask me, but what do I know.

The fact is we are in trouble when it comes to energy, we rely to heavily on imported fuel and we don't have a plentiful supply, yet our demand is going up every year.

At least if we have a mixed bag we have options. We can produce electricity through nuclear or solar if required, and biomass / wood pellet can and is being produced now here in the U.K.

Whether or not we save the polar bears from extinction is another debate.

 

[efficiencyman]

AGREED But those with common sense will have already installed insulation, if not tripled it and done something about airtightness, leakage through drafts is appalling even on new buildings.
Insulation is NOT chucked away it`s one of the best investments.
Regards being positive there is so much good research from around the world from the likes of Pasivehaus, Bream etc. to name only two of so much scientific analysis that has evidence of what needs to be done for relief of the demand on finite resources.
I realise the government have made many dumb decision`s but at least they did introduce part `L`even if it did not go far enough.
In the UK alone by 2035 the demands are increasing at an alarming rate we should not ignore. Projected demand on Leccy up 35% Water up 85%, Gas imports massive %----- ? Bury your head in the sand if you like but one certainty it will be out of your pocket if you don`t conserve what you use.

 

[SimonG]

AGREED But those with common sense will have already installed insulation, if not tripled it and done something about airtightness, leakage through drafts is appalling even on new buildings.
Insulation is NOT chucked away it`s one of the best investments.
Regards being positive there is so much good research from around the world from the likes of Pasivehaus, Bream etc. to name only two of so much scientific analysis that has evidence of what needs to be done for relief of the demand on finite resources.
I realise the government have made many dumb decision`s but at least they did introduce part `L`even if it did not go far enough.
In the UK alone by 2035 the demands are increasing at an alarming rate we should not ignore. Projected demand on Leccy up 35% Water up 85%, Gas imports massive %----- ? Bury your head in the sand if you like but one certainty it will be out of your pocket if you don`t conserve what you use.

Re-read my post. 'Chucked at' is not 'chucked away'.

Yep great things from huffhaus, pasivehaus etc. If you have the money.

Bio mass, let me start with the fact that there has been no significant increase in cost in the last ten years. Bit of a loss leader. They wont put it up as it will reduce uptake, once the uptake increases then the price is only going in one direction, and it isn't down. Just look at what happens when gas and electric go up. Coal and logs follow, but not wood pellets?

I'm in business and it's supply and demand. The customer is king. Once I am receiving enough enquiries for alternative energys then I will be more than happy to give it serious consideration. But as nobody is asking then it will be a long way off.

Now where's my sand pit?

 

[SimonG]

Stuff the polar bears, what do they do for me?

Its a dog eat dog world and yes the resources are finite. So is my time on this planet. If it lasts whilst I'm here then that will do for me. Once I'm worm bait I will have very little worry of polar bears, global warming and the latest alternative energy. Steps back and waits for the 'what about the kids, the grand kids, the great grand kids' brigade.

Have a think on this though, I was born in 1968 when man hadn't stepped on the moon (maybe still hasn't ) and look at where we are technological wise. All the doom mongerers don't factor in how technology may advance as the extra demands are placed on the world. Its about time more time and airplay is given to Hydrogen as an alternative energy. After all its by products are heat and water.

 

[efficiencyman]

Here we go again Simon, the sand pit is getting deeper for you mate. Grand children won`t thank your selfishness (no offence intended from me).
"Hydrogen" my experience and that of several universities around the would, is far worse than the great success of Heat Pumps. When we purchased a container of Hydrogen, it cost us £72 plus VAT. It ran our engine for little over half an hour (much of that on tick over) if we could have obtained more power from it, instead of Hot air, water, head scratching, hair loss, etc. the MPG was the opposite, it would not have provided any dent in financial savings. We ended the project at great expense to our sponsors by donating the fuel cell to another university. Don`t mention Hydrogen power to me been there done that !
I am glad my time on this planet has provided so much benefit to all my past customers, too many friends to count, my 9 grandchildren & least say my own Eco improvements all invested well. Hoping your life could give you as much satisfaction as mine, all the best with your sand pit.
PS. That`s more down to earth than playing with the stars !

 

[SimonG]

The sands lovely. I don't blame my forefathers for the state of the planet, it is what it is and we just get on with it. Just like future generations will. Selfishness has nothing to do with it.

So hydrogen needs to be binned just because you couldnt get it to work? Appreciate you have given it a go, but a bit egostistical to assume nobody else will get it to work.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion and respected for it. Yes alternatives do seem to work in some circumstances. But at the minute every double glazing company in the land are throwing poorly designed installations in and then leaving customers with very little support. For those companys battling against this and doing a good job, I doff my imaginary flat cap. We are a long way off of alternatives being the norm. Not because of the alternatives, or the supposed negative attitudes of the main line energy engineers but because of the way they are sold. For every success story you hear about alternatives then theres a handful of bad ones.

So i'll stick to my head in the sand, mis informed, afraid of change attitude. Works for me. For now! When evidence suggests otherwise then I am more than willing to explore those avenues.

 

[Ray Stafford]

We don't actually have an energy problem. The world is awash with energy - far more than we can even dream of using.

Our problem is storing it and relocating it in time and space.

 

[Nostrum]

That would make it an energy problem!

I'm a touch too young to remember the introduction of the combi boiler, no doubt the merchants were full of grumbling old folk putting it down as a flash in the pan?

How about condensing boilers? I remember that one, again everybody whinging about how pointless they are etc etc

or diesel cars, they've come a long way in 20 years, hardly comparable to a petrol in the early days, now they are leading the way in many respects.

With such a huge problem as what we are told it to be (I'm a fence sitter personally, but happy to supply a product to somebody who has made their mind up) it is the collection of small improvements that help the bigger picture.

I will sit back and laugh when/if the demand picks up and everyone starts talking of courses and getting into renewables etc. because without the forerunners pushing the market, the mainstream demand doesn't exist.

Which is the exact reason for the incentives offered. The long term hope is that the increased demand will drive the prices down so that they become a realistic alternative without the subsidy, solar P.V is getting there.

Its a typical Brit attitude, complain but do nothing, or wait for someone else to make the move then follow suit like a sheep. (no disrespect intended)

Personally, I'm genuinely interested in these technologies and have been following the renewable market for about 4 years now. It's this interest that is driving me into this market not the quick buck pound signs.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I remember when combis came out thought they were a god send fo ne honest

Im going to wait at this poiny in time see what happens still seems to be plenty of gas work around and ic a changeover does happen I will do a wee course and suddenly be competant

 

[Ermintrude]

Here we go again Simon, the sand pit is getting deeper for you mate. Grand children won`t thank your selfishness (no offence intended from me).
"Hydrogen" my experience and that of several universities around the would, is far worse than the great success of Heat Pumps. When we purchased a container of Hydrogen, it cost us £72 plus VAT. It ran our engine for little over half an hour (much of that on tick over) if we could have obtained more power from it, instead of Hot air, water, head scratching, hair loss, etc. the MPG was the opposite, it would not have provided any dent in financial savings. We ended the project at great expense to our sponsors by donating the fuel cell to another university. Don`t mention Hydrogen power to me been there done that !
I am glad my time on this planet has provided so much benefit to all my past customers, too many friends to count, my 9 grandchildren & least say my own Eco improvements all invested well. Hoping your life could give you as much satisfaction as mine, all the best with your sand pit.
PS. That`s more down to earth than playing with the stars !

Yep know that feeling we tested and worked on NaBH4 and methanol stacks. Current density was hilarious! Carbon on platinum catalyst on naffion 115 membrane.

Some twonk designed one to work high temp high pressure - 4 bar and 300c - idiot! Like that's ever going in a car!

 

[Worcester]

I like this debate!

I am not sure alternatives will ever come down significantly in price, until the whole industry changes it's approach.

IF new ALL build houses had to be built to code 4 and above as Social houses do, but not for joe public buyer, then the heating costs will reduce for everyone, the heating loads will go down, and then if either over-sized rads or underfloor heating are installed as standard, I can see a time when an ASHP will be as simple to install as a combi, and priced accordingly, ad be designed to be serviced by a BG plumber with replaceable modules . I can remember going to the US in the late 70's early 80's and smaller hotels had individual room aircon units bolted through the wall (maybe some still do). So it can be done.

It will get to that stage, however only if FORCED to, so when the government backs off tightening up the insulation requirements as they have recently done it pushes back that date.

Alternatives (call then renewables if you like ) are here to stay and will slowly become mainstream as the cost of traditional fuels rise higher and higher.

Come 2030 and we'll all be laughing at how inneficient combi boilers were!

 

[Ermintrude]

Thought it was 2020

 

[SimonG]

I see an opening for an earner. Start sticking the old combis you pull out in the back of the garage, get them covered up and then drag them out for antiques roadshow 2050.

 

[Ermintrude]

Isar..... That's a formidable boiler, now a working one would be worth £200,000 but unfortunately yours is like the many thousands of yester year , broken and damaged by an axe welding Neanderthal , in the early 21st century most isar repairs were done with an axe.

 

[Worcester]

isar..... That's a formidable boiler, now a working one would be worth £200,000 but unfortunately yours is like the many thousands of yester year , broken and damaged by an axe welding neanderthal , in the early 21st century most isar repairs were done with an axe.

rflol .....

 

[chris watkins]

How do we generate most of our electricity it this country, what fuel is used ?

Yes our planet has seen hot & colder times but never ever, in all off its history, has the change been so rapid.

 

[SimonG]

I did some work a few years back for a bloke that was heavily involved in electrical generation plants on a large scale. He said we were about 7 to 10 years behind where we should be in moving forward with plans for new power stations. He said we were going to have fun and games in the years to come as the time couldnt be caught back up.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Company I sub to have won a 14 year fit out on a nuclear power station, rat

Does this classify as renewable?

 

[Ermintrude]

Nope not at all. Only enough 232 to supply worlds electric for 25 years topps and the few hundred year half life!

 

[PhoenixServices]

I've been watching renewables for a while. Something I would like to get into more but haven't got much demand only the odd bit of maintenance. At the minute I struggle to get people to spend £100 extra on a twin coil cylinder let alone a whole system.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Alternatives (call then renewables if you like ) are here to stay and will slowly become mainstream as the cost of traditional fuels rise higher and higher.

I think this is probably right, and how it ought to happen. If (and to be honest, I think this is still a big IF) the price of carbon fuels rise as much as is currently suggested, then normal market forces will move people to renewables/alternative technologies.

If that price move doesn't occur, then it won't happen. Its basic economics. And as any student of economics will tell you, government attempts to predict or control the price of any good or service almost always ends in disaster, and a whole raft of unintended consequences.

 

[hammers4spanner]

I've been watching renewables for a while. Something I would like to get into more but haven't got much demand only the odd bit of maintenance. At the minute I struggle to get people to spend £100 extra on a twin coil cylinder let alone a whole system.

That's half the problem sheer cost alone won't help it

 

[chris watkins]

I think this is probably right, and how it ought to happen. If (and to be honest, I think this is still a big IF) the price of carbon fuels rise as much as is currently suggested, then normal market forces will move people to renewables/alternative technologies.

If that price move doesn't occur, then it won't happen. Its basic economics. And as any student of economics will tell you, government attempts to predict or control the price of any good or service almost always ends in disaster, and a whole raft of unintended consequences.

Market forces are all well & good where there is a developed market & prices don't rise sharply, so that the available technologies are there, along with the skills to install them, not to mention the manufactures & of course stockist's.
If not then the people at the low end of our society are really going to suffer when that sharp rise in fuel costs comes !!!

Lets face it, it is a remarkable stable system with little risk or changes year to year especially as we are self-sufficient in so many for the fuel sources !!!!

Me, I would like my government (society) to be planning long term for our needs in terms of these resources that no one can live without.

However difficult & complex the issues this planning & the costs associated with our decisions can no longer be ignored. I kid you not the lights will be going off somewhere near you in the next few years if we do nothing & continue to demand more from our supply systems.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Market forces are all well & good where there is a developed market & prices don't rise sharply, so that the available technologies are there, along with the skills to install them, not to mention the manufactures & of course stockist's.
If not then the people at the low end of our society are really going to suffer when that sharp rise in fuel costs comes !!!

Lets face it, it is a remarkable stable system with little risk or changes year to year especially as we are self-sufficient in so many for the fuel sources !!!!

Me, I would like my government (society) to be planning long term for our needs in terms of these resources that no one can live without.

However difficult & complex the issues this planning & the costs associated with our decisions can no longer be ignored. I kid you not the lights will be going off somewhere near you in the next few years if we do nothing & continue to demand more from our supply systems.

The trouble is, the government (not just ours, this applies to all governments everywhere) is notoriously bad at economic planning. So, incidentally is everyone else. Economic forecasting, even by so-called "experts" is only very marginally better than having a monkey throw darts. So whilst you might be right about the forthcoming soaring costs of energy, equally you might be wrong. I have been hearing about "peak oil" since I was in my teens, and I am now in my 50s and the date that the oil will run out keeps getting moved forward. And the adjusted-for-inflation price of oil is currently significantly below where it was when I left school.

As I say - you might be right predicting massive increases in energy costs, and I am happy for you to bet your money on it and fit renewables in your property. I am even happy for the government to insist it is fitted in all government owned property. But I do have a problem with anyone who insists that I must fit it in my property - either the one I live in now, or the one I might build tomorrow.

I don't want to use the law to impose my predictions on others, and I wish that they wouldnt use the law to impose their predictions on me.


Government programmes, however well meaning, rarely achieve what they set out to achieve.

One thing we do know is that technology can consistently surprise us. Another thing that we know is that technologies that look so convincing at one point in history can look like foolish diversions just a few years later.

The reason that we currently lack the planned generating capacity that we need is because for 2 decades governments of both colours have hummed and hawed and changed their minds about the the regulatory environment that the generators operate in. Nuclear is out, nuclear is in, nuclear is out again. Renewables must be x% by this date, or is it y% by another date?

I have no faith in any government from any party "solving" the energy issue.

 

[solutions]

For me the renewables at least heat pumps and such are missing the point. If there was the will to build houses to the correct levels of efficiency in insulation and airtightness we would barely need heat sources beyond that generated by inhabiting a space. Infact the likely hood is we would be managing building cooling more regularly. There is no better way to save energy than to insulate and apply controlled ventilation coupled with heat recovery. Solar gain and thermal mass can all play there part too. Some of the technology I am interested in is the materials technology that will improve insulation levels. Aerogels are not new but will soon be an affordable building solution superior to pu foam a fraction of the thickness and the potential to be translucent. Vacuum facade panels and window pains will have as close to zero heat transference from one side to the other as we are going to get, when they are commercially viable they will be more than enough to heat a house. We need not only to build the houses our country needs to fulfill demand but refit everything else to bring it up to standard. It has taken over 20 years for a fraction of the recommendations put forward by housing energy studies carried out when I was a child to be adopted in to planning legislation. Only for the legislation not to be policed. I read recently that there is a big gap between what developer new build houses are achieving in energy efficiency and what they are supposed to have been capable of on paper by design. I think the renewable tech on offer will not come to play a significant role in domestic properties in the uk or be realisticly affordable without subsidies before it is superceded with simpler more effective solutions.

 

[chris watkins]

The trouble is, the government (not just ours, this applies to all governments everywhere) is notoriously bad at economic planning. So, incidentally is everyone else. Economic forecasting, even by so-called "experts" is only very marginally better than having a monkey throw darts. So whilst you might be right about the forthcoming soaring costs of energy, equally you might be wrong. I have been hearing about "peak oil" since I was in my teens, and I am now in my 50s and the date that the oil will run out keeps getting moved forward. And the adjusted-for-inflation price of oil is currently significantly below where it was when I left school.

As I say - you might be right predicting massive increases in energy costs, and I am happy for you to bet your money on it and fit renewables in your property. I am even happy for the government to insist it is fitted in all government owned property. But I do have a problem with anyone who insists that I must fit it in my property - either the one I live in now, or the one I might build tomorrow.

I don't want to use the law to impose my predictions on others, and I wish that they wouldnt use the law to impose their predictions on me.


Government programmes, however well meaning, rarely achieve what they set out to achieve.

One thing we do know is that technology can consistently surprise us. Another thing that we know is that technologies that look so convincing at one point in history can look like foolish diversions just a few years later.

The reason that we currently lack the planned generating capacity that we need is because for 2 decades governments of both colours have hummed and hawed and changed their minds about the the regulatory environment that the generators operate in. Nuclear is out, nuclear is in, nuclear is out again. Renewables must be x% by this date, or is it y% by another date?

I have no faith in any government from any party "solving" the energy issue.

So what is to be done then throw our hands in the air & wait for disaster to strike or maybe lady luck to save the day?

I think we all need to remember a few facts here, things like, that government you have no faith in, is there because we the people elect them, maybe if we all took a bit may notice/interest in what they are doing in our name they might get more right, they at least would not be able to pay themselves loads more of our money!!

The power generation industry is not a free market & it is very unlikely to ever be. Nuclear generation is a good case in point with the amount of money that governments have to commit to, not only get them built but to under-right the costs of decommissioning etc. They would never be built by a for profit company & taking the amount of time that it takes to get them online how could one be built in response to a demand?

Like it or not strategic decision have to be made about how we are going to proceed into the future & this has to involve having adult debates now! like this one. After all we are just as well place to provide input with our knowledge of how effective some of these suggest solutions are.

The Law you so dislike (lets say for example building to a certain insulation standard) is only in place because as a society we have got together & decided that we need to save energy otherwise it will effect our generating, supply or reserve capacity. If there are no rules we all know what happens the insulation does not get fitted cos it cost a little bit more.

I want to live in our society & I want everyone to play by an agreed set of rule otherwise I would move to Iraq or Syria.

 

[Nostrum]

I want to live in our society & I want everyone to play by an agreed set of rule otherwise I would move to Iraq or Syria.

I hear solar thermal is a real winner over there

 

[chris watkins]

I hear solar thermal is a real winner over there

They have been using it for thousands of years, installation is really cheap :aureola:

 

[Worcester]

Question for you all

Is The Code for Suatainable Homes Level 6 still scheduled to come into force in 2016 for new builds?

If so then how many nee build do you guys reckon will be heated by gas?
How many heated by some form of alternative (renewable) method?
or as solutions mentions above, will they almost be 'passiv haus' and need no form of heating?

 

[Ray Stafford]

So what is to be done then throw our hands in the air & wait for disaster to strike or maybe lady luck to save the day?

Hi Chris. Forgive me, but I think that you are falling into the classic trap of feeling that "something must be done = anything must be done".

The fact that a problem may or may not exist does not justify ANY policy. It has to be established that the policy has at least a reasonable chance of solving the problem, which in the case of most government schemes aimed at renewable/alternative energy technologies is very far from being the case. One must also consider what is lost or given up once a decision is made - all policies have opportunity costs.

I think we all need to remember a few facts here, things like, that government you have no faith in, is there because we the people elect them, maybe if we all took a bit may notice/interest in what they are doing in our name they might get more right, they at least would not be able to pay themselves loads more of our money!!

Two observations. Firstly, no-one voted for a coalition government, and only about 30% of eligible voters voted Tory. The actual election is decided by a few tens of thousands of voters in each of a hundred or so marginal seats. Most of these electors could not define the differences in policy between the parties on obvious things like tax and spending plans, let alone their respective energy policies. As I think you were suggesting, this is a sad comment on the state of democracy in the UK, but at least we agree that there is no democratic mandate for current government policy in this area.

The power generation industry is not a free market & it is very unlikely to ever be. Nuclear generation is a good case in point with the amount of money that governments have to commit to, not only get them built but to under-right the costs of decommissioning etc. They would never be built by a for profit company & taking the amount of time that it takes to get them online how could one be built in response to a demand?

Why not? They are in France and in many other countries in the world. The reason they wont in Britain is because they dont trust the government not to change the rules. We have already had the unedifying spectacle of the opposition effectively torpedoeing potential policy by saying "if we get in at any point, we will change the rules". Since its almost a certainty that they will get in at some point in the 30-50 years of a power stations life, it is too risky to invest. This is not a weakness of private enterprise, its just childish schoolyard politics.

I am not arguing for an unregulated free market. All free markets actually require some regulation to make them work. For example, the enforcement of weights and measures, trades descriptions and contract law are all genuine ways that a free market is aided by the government and would be poorer without it. I don't know if a single serious economist who has argued for unregulated markets since the mid 19th century - they are a complete strawman invented by those in favour of central planning.

As I said in an earlier post, the problem with the lack of investment in generating capacity is because our political parties have refused to put party politics to one side and come to a consensus on the regulatory environment in which they can make long term investments.

The Law you so dislike (lets say for example building to a certain insulation standard) is only in place because as a society we have got together & decided that we need to save energy otherwise it will effect our generating, supply or reserve capacity. If there are no rules we all know what happens the insulation does not get fitted cos it cost a little bit more.

I don't dislike the law at all. I dislike people who seek to use the law to enforce their prejudices and opinions on other people. The proper place for the law in this case is a) to enforce minimum safety standards and b) to ensure honest reporting and description.

For example, the food industry is an example of "good" regulation. If I ask for a kilo of cheese, I will get a kilo, because the weights and measures law will be enforced, and it will be cheese, because the trades descriptions law will be enforced. The whole horsemeat scandal was the exception that proved just how much we take this for granted.

The cheese will also be labelled to show me how much fat and salt there is in it. Some public money has been spent to educate me on the risks of fat and salt. After that, its left up to me, even to the point of killing myself with cholesterol, to choose how much cheese to eat.

If the people who run building control standards also regulated the food industry, we would not be allowed any fat or salt, (or beer) and it would be compulsory to eat our roughage and our five per day.

No doubt we would all be a little healthier. And also a little less free and a little less human.

Vive le fromage! To the barricades mes braves...

 

[Nostrum]

Surely the two are not the same though Ray.

We have many problems, carbon emission (if research is correct), the sustainability of a finite fuel source and global security.

If I choose to take the death by cheese route, the knock on effect to others is fairly limited.

Reducing energy wastage, controlling energy usage and trying to make a reduction in carbon emissions effects every one of us. These are the issues that should be enforced rather than the cheese's fat content in my opinion.

If what we are being told is true, we could be approaching times of energy shortage. We rely heavily on countries to supply us energy, of which most have security issues.

These policies we are working towards are international and the theory is being researched and questioned globally. If I'm correct, there are international laws now enforcing the reduction in carbon emission by 2020 with hefty fines in place for non compliance.

I 'm as skeptical as the next person, particularly when the government are involved, but I can't see this issue disappearing any time soon.

Ultimately, with something so potentially devastating as changing the planets balance beyond reversal or the risk of being denied fuel through shortage or conflict, are we really in a position to 'see how it goes' or should we be looking at a long term, time consuming solution to a problem that could well exist?

There is no easy answer, my view is if we start off small now we could save years of catch up (if at all possible) if we continue to plod on as we are.

Now, if you had compared death by cheese to being told you have to keep your windows closed, that would have been a fair comparison!

 

[Ray Stafford]

They are closer than you might think Sam. All human actions have some consequence for others.

The raising of cattle for either meat or dairy instead of dedicating the same resources to gowing grains is frequently cited as a problem both in terms of driving up the cost of food in the third world, and in increasing methane emissions - a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Both claims are undoubtedly true -the question is the level of significance that you attach to them.

I too am sceptical - in the true sense of the word. Having spent quite a lot of time reading about the subject, I still don't think that there is enough evidence yet to direct policy. That may be frustrating, but wishing that something is not true doesn't make it untrue.

There is, as yet, no such thing as "international law" except in the sense that a range (not all) governments sign up to a variety of protocols concerning things like genocide and war crimes. There are international agreements on carbon emissions, but so long as the likes of America, China and India carry on the way they are, they are irrelevant, since there is no competent or capable enforcement agency.

As I said in my response to Chris, there is a serious danger of falling into the trap of "we must do something - this is something - therefore we must do this." Its a logical fallacy.

Don't just do something. Stand there!

 

[Nostrum]

Unfortunately we cannot just stand there, the economy would grind to a halt. The 2 options we actually have are carry on moving in the direction we are currently travelling, or change direction. Thinking on our feet as it were.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Unfortunately we cannot just stand there, the economy would grind to a halt. The 2 options we actually have are carry on moving in the direction we are currently travelling, or change direction. Thinking on our feet as it were.

I agree that we do have to decide something about the regulatory environment for electricity generation, and quickly.

However, we don't have to do anything else to encourage the uptake of renewables. Those who insist that we do almost always turn out to have a vested interest of some type.

Remember that "doing something" comes at a cost. Either we have the direct cost of taxation to take money away from people who earned it in order to subsidise some incentive system, or the indirect costs of regulation, which force people to pay for something that they may not have paid for if they made their own choice.

If the doom-mongers are right, and the cost of energy rises sharply, good old market forces will do the job - just like the oil price hikes of the 70s encourage the drive to much more efficient car engines.

And if energy prices don't soar - and I am far from sure that they will - then it would have been a mistake to force people into costly installations that they didn't want.

And I have a real deep viceral distrust for people or governments who are so sure that they are right that they think that choice should be removed from people who disagree with them.