Potentially being taken to court. What should I do?

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Discuss Potentially being taken to court. What should I do? in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at PlumbersForums.net

No problems. I take it you watched Jeremy Hunt's speech on Youtube at lunchtime too? Enough to put most of Europe in a bad mood, while I sat in front of my monitor thinking 'Oh my God? Dod he really say that publicly?'.
Hope tomorrow's better for you mate!
 
Sorry, that response was on a rubbish day.

Today is yet another. No not that fool. Even bigger fools. Insurers. My car was written off a couple of weeks ago whilst I was taking my wife to hospital. We were inside and nowhere near it. However the old boy just drove off.

These things happen and frankly he could have received any manner of news so I wasn't too fussed. However the insurers, Elephant (part of the Admiral Group but not admirable) are a nightmare. I want it back etc so that's sorted but it turns out I'll be paying 30% more on my premium for ever as I was a victim. Plus they refuse to pay out for a hire car whilst mine is off being repaired. They also told me I needed a new MOT as it had been written off and gave me some nonsensical write off category. The guy from DVLA just burst into laughter when I told him what they required me to do!

Upshot of all of this is that i have to take out a private prosecution on this old boy to get back what I'm owed by insurers. What I shall be doing however is citing them as the reason I'm doing it so they get lots of SM attention over their appalling attitude.

Off to write yet another letter....
 
YorkshireDave said:
Sorry, that response was on a rubbish day.

Today is yet another. No not that fool. Even bigger fools. Insurers. My car was written off a couple of weeks ago whilst I was taking my wife to hospital. We were inside and nowhere near it. However the old boy just drove off.

These things happen and frankly he could have received any manner of news so I wasn't too fussed. However the insurers, Elephant (part of the Admiral Group but not admirable) are a nightmare. I want it back etc so that's sorted but it turns out I'll be paying 30% more on my premium for ever as I was a victim. Plus they refuse to pay out for a hire car whilst mine is off being repaired. They also told me I needed a new MOT as it had been written off and gave me some nonsensical write off category. The guy from DVLA just burst into laughter when I told him what they required me to do!

Upshot of all of this is that i have to take out a private prosecution on this old boy to get back what I'm owed by insurers. What I shall be doing however is citing them as the reason I'm doing it so they get lots of SM attention over their appalling attitude.

Off to write yet another letter..
Click to expand...
Blood sucking scum all insurers..its an absolute joke.

My mate lost his wallet in Morrissons and he was nagged by his wife to ring up and asked if the cash in it was covered by his house insurance so he rang up to ask and of course it wasn't. Big miskate to tell them anything!
The next day some guy had found it and dropped it back in to him and the following year his house insurance went up so he rang up to ask why and the woman said it says here you lost your wallet last year and he was like yes...but I didn't claim and she said yes but you still lost it and you've proved yourself a higher risk.
 
Phil said:
Blood sucking scum all insurers..its an absolute joke.

My mate lost his wallet in Morrissons and he was nagged by his wife to ring up and asked if the cash in it was covered by his house insurance so he rang up to ask and of course it wasn't. Big miskate to tell them anything!
The next day some guy had found it and dropped it back in to him and the following year his house insurance went up so he rang up to ask why and the woman said it says here you lost your wallet last year and he was like yes...but I didn't claim and she said yes but you still lost it and you've proved yourself a higher risk.
Click to expand...
So the old geezer managed to completely write off a car in the car park and just drove off?
 
Phil said:
Blood sucking scum all insurers..its an absolute joke.

My mate lost his wallet in Morrissons and he was nagged by his wife to ring up and asked if the cash in it was covered by his house insurance so he rang up to ask and of course it wasn't. Big miskate to tell them anything!
The next day some guy had found it and dropped it back in to him and the following year his house insurance went up so he rang up to ask why and the woman said it says here you lost your wallet last year and he was like yes...but I didn't claim and she said yes but you still lost it and you've proved yourself a higher risk.
Click to expand...

Same Phil as if you are doing nothing wrong when driving and someone crashes into you.
Your insurance company can put your insurance up the next year despite if you have protected no claims bonus and that the other persons insurance had covered the costs.
Then the next year if you decide just to take your business elsewhere - the other insurances will ask - did you have an accident in the last 5 years?
Although the accident was nothing to do with you, they look at you as a higher risk and will quote you higher.
Your previous protected bonus is irrelevant because it was only with the previous insurance.
It is all a joke.
 
DuncanM said:
They must give you the opportunity to fix it at your expense. You are not responsible if they pay someone else to do the work. They have just shot themselves in the foot
Click to expand...

They do Duncan. However, YOU still pay more. All this BS about protected no claims is smoke and mirrors. They put your basic premium up - end of.

My thoughts are to test this in European court of human rights. I feel sure this victimisation (cos that's what it is) is unlawful.

Have written directly the the Admiral Group Chief Exec today telling him the service delivered is raf from admirable :confused:.
He, or his office, have opened it so we'll see where that goes.
 
I've just caught up on the recent posts. I hope all is sorted.

I will get it back on topic for those interested. Here is what the letter from the customer says.

Got my surname wrong. I don't use my surname as the name of my company, I have left them business cards with my name before and it wouldn't be hard to find who I am using my mobile number)

She did not at the time tell me about the damage in full (she wasn't aware of it, I didn't find out until 11.5.18!, the boyfriend text me on the 10th after I missed his call. I called him in the 11th and that's when he told me what had happened and they had the leak repaired by then)

Ive requested invoices, all I've received is an invoice from the plumbing firm for £340.

I have a recording of the call I have made to the company who did the repairs and he says that he advised her to get me back but she said she was taking me to court.

_20181004_190959.JPG
 
'At the time' implies that at the time you caused the damage, you were aware or made aware of it. I would rebutt this. She could be referring to your correspondance of May, but I would make it absolutely clear that as far as you could possibly tell, there was no leak when you left the property.

An anecdote for you. A friend of mine was working in a very posh house some years ago. His boss rang him at 20.00 hours and he goes to investigate a leak at a house he had worked on that day. He gets there, and he's going to be sued, the damage he has caused etc etc how can he call himself a plumber bla bla bla. And he wanders to the floor where he had run pipes that day.

'Oh', he says, 'I see you've started putting the boards back down.'

'Yes, but waste of time since your pipework leaks bla bla bla! Sue you, hundreds of pounds of damage, ornate plastered ceiling etc.'

'Funny though that you've put the nails in the centre of the boards. I always run the pipes in notches down where the centre of the board will be so you can nail on each side of the pipes. I wonder if a nail has gone through a pipe.'

At this point, the customer went quiet and my friend fitted a replacement section to the nail-damaged pipe. He never got an apology, mind you!

Not saying what happened in your case was the same, but I smell a rat.
 
Ric2013 said:
'At the time' implies that at the time you caused the damage, you were aware or made aware of it. I would rebutt this. She could be referring to your correspondance of May, but I would make it absolutely clear that as far as you could possibly tell, there was no leak when you left the property.

An anecdote for you. A friend of mine was working in a very posh house some years ago. His boss rang him at 20.00 hours and he goes to investigate a leak at a house he had worked on that day. He gets there, and he's going to be sued, the damage he has caused etc etc how can he call himself a plumber bla bla bla. And he wanders to the floor where he had run pipes that day.

'Oh', he says, 'I see you've started putting the boards back down.'

'Yes, but waste of time since your pipework leaks bla bla bla! Sue you, hundreds of pounds of damage, ornate plastered ceiling etc.'

'Funny though that you've put the nails in the centre of the boards. I always run the pipes in notches down where the centre of the board will be so you can nail on each side of the pipes. I wonder if a nail has gone through a pipe.'

At this point, the customer went quiet and my friend fitted a replacement section to the nail-damaged pipe. He never got an apology, mind you!

Not saying what happened in your case was the same, but I smell a rat.
Click to expand...


Ive re-read it, yes it could be she meant she made me aware of the damage etc in May. Still too late though as she had paid for the repairs by then and not made me aware.
 
armyash said:
I've just caught up on the recent posts. I hope all is sorted.

I will get it back on topic for those interested. Here is what the letter from the customer says.

Got my surname wrong. I don't use my surname as the name of my company, I have left them business cards with my name before and it wouldn't be hard to find who I am using my mobile number)

She did not at the time tell me about the damage in full (she wasn't aware of it, I didn't find out until 11.5.18!, the boyfriend text me on the 10th after I missed his call. I called him in the 11th and that's when he told me what had happened and they had the leak repaired by then)

Ive requested invoices, all I've received is an invoice from the plumbing firm for £340.

I have a recording of the call I have made to the company who did the repairs and he says that he advised her to get me back but she said she was taking me to court.

View attachment 34729
Click to expand...

Read the first sentence the customer has done in that letter.
It says - “Damage to floor and pipework ..................... due to faulty fitting of toilet.”

Begs the questions - how they can allege the toilet was faulty installed and also -how could the toilet be installed other than by drilling of the points on the floor determined by where the customer wanted the toilet pan fixed and where the toilet manufacturer designed the fixing points?

The letter reads repeatedly as threats of court. Classic scare tactics in hope you will compromise.
They might go to court, but I would go.
Take your time for a few days to read that letter. Note they give you 30 days to respond, so take all that time to do so, - pees them off and allows you time to work out your tactics.
You don’t need to respond, but a polite letter, short but concise, cleverly done to rebuff their story would be good.
Perhaps think about pointing out your name is not what they used.
You were not informed of any allegation and the company she employed have informed you that she told them she just wanted court against their advice.
Toilet fixing points were not moveable.
Pipes were not traceable nor should they be so shallow and ideally not have been installed below a toilet pan.
 
armyash said:
I've just caught up on the recent posts. I hope all is sorted.

I will get it back on topic for those interested. Here is what the letter from the customer says.

Got my surname wrong. I don't use my surname as the name of my company, I have left them business cards with my name before and it wouldn't be hard to find who I am using my mobile number)
Click to expand...
Not important here on the forum but stay away from using brackets in a formal letter or come back and proof read after 24hrs mate. :eek:
 
OK here is what I intend to send. It will be handwritten, set out properly and no use of brackets. :)

Please let me know if I should add anything, remove anything or change anything. Thanks. Here we go.

Dear Ms........

Thank you for your letter dated 16.9.18. I too was happy to come to an agreement with you regarding the leak at your property. I'd like to remind you that my offer of £150.00 was a goodwill gesture to hopefully resolve the matter and not a refund for being at fault. I believe this was a fair offer under the circumstances as I was never given an opportunity to rectify the plumbing although between the toilet being fitted and you getting the repair done you had enough time to make me aware of what had happened.

This is the first correspondence from yourself in the 6 months since I fitted the toilet. All other discussions have been between myself and your partner Mr....... of (insert address).

The first I heard of the matter was when I spoke to Mr..... on 11th May 2 months after the toilet was fitted. I asked why was I not asked to make any repairs and he said it was because you didn't want me in the property. If you didn't want me in your property to carry out the repairs I still should have been made aware a repair was needed and given the chance to discuss repairs to be made by another plumber. That never happened Mr..... Said its a case of hand over the sum in question or you will take me to court. I asked for time to get back to him. This caused me considerable distress as I felt I was being blackmailed.

I feel the need to address other aspects of your letter. The toilet was not fitted in a faulty way. It was connected to the existing plumbing. I had no reason to expect there to be heating pipes under the tiled floor as there had been a pan fitted there previously and it is not good practise to fit pipes where a pan will need to be fixed. There was no sign of a leak as I fitted the toilet and when I returned a few days later to board up the cavity wall there was still no sign of a leak. There is no realistic way I could have checked for pipes being there.

I have spoken to the company who carried out the repair who confirmed it was not done through incompetence but that during plunbing tasks this can happen. They said that they advised you to get me back to carry out the repair but you said no and that you wanted to take me to court to get the money, I have this call recorded and can provide transcripts of the conversation.

I have taken advice and I have been told I should have been given the opportunity to rectify the fault within a reasonable time frame. This is called 'repeat performance'. If you didn't want me in the property then I still should have been made aware of the problem and a chance to discuss repairs and come to an agreement. I still hope to resolve this matter amicably but I feel what I have offered is more than fair considering everything. For any future correspondence I'd like to make you aware that my surname is..... and not.....

Yours sincerely

Not in the letter. I charged £320 to fit the toilet and also vanity unit and basin. I supplied pan con and copper pipe and fittings and the basin waste, waste pipe, trap and fittings. The toilet took approx 1.5hour to fit the rest of the job was knocking out the wall to get to the basin supplies and repipe and make good the wall. I felt that was a fair price each way.
 
Take out the During plumbing tasks this can happen.
There should not of been pipes in that area regardless of how deep or shallow, concentrate on the fact that there was a pan there.
Personally I would say you have taken legal advice, fight fire with fire ash
 
I wouldn't add the first bit "I too was happy to come to an agreement with you regarding the leak at your property." sounds like your admission
 
"I believe this was a fair offer under the circumstances as I was never given an opportunity to rectify the plumbing although between the toilet being fitted and you getting the repair done you had enough time to make me aware of what had happened."

Ash. In my opinion, I would not phrase this as it is. Why? There is implication of 'fault'. Personally, I'd rewrite thus, "I made you a 'no fault, without prejudice' offer despite your failure to notify me there was a problem until after it had be rectified by a third party."

"I have spoken to the company who carried out the repair who confirmed it was not done through incompetence but that during plunbing tasks this can happen. They said that they advised you to get me back to carry out the repair but you said no and that you wanted to take me to court to get the money, I have this call recorded and can provide transcripts of the conversation."

Similarly this para. "Having spoken at some length with those you engaged to rectify the issue, they confirm they advised you to ask me back to rectify the issue. They made a point of explaining that you stated your wish was to take me to court to get the money. This conversation was recorded and I shall be providing transcripts at disclosure."

The point is to NOT admit or even hint at admitting its your fault, but to become slightly more confrontational and not read like you're going to roll over.

I just now wonder if you talk about counterclaim at this juncture based on the time and effort and cost of defending yourself against this erroneous claim?
 
hammers4spanner said:
Reading this thread makes me wonder why do we bother doing plumbing ?
I hear more and more now customers moaning and wanting compo for literaly anything now not to mention im going to call gas safe blah blah blah.
Click to expand...

If once it happened I was told and got to sort it out, id have no problem. I'm the last person to try and screw someone over. I'm surprised I didn't just hand the money over, a year or 2 ago I probably would have done no questions asked but I'm sick of people taking the mickey for one reason or another. The arrogance to say give us so much money or it goes to court is too much. If I lose and its costs me the fine.
 
Try to also compress the letter into less words.
There is only so many words and sentences a person will take in fully, - even Judges (who are experts at reading) will glaze over and lose some of the message.
 
Last edited:
You mean 'good practice', not 'good practise'.

I agree with what others have said about not admitting fault. It sounds as if you are accepting that you caused this damage, and we do not know that to be the case for a fact.

I think it would be worth making it clearer that when you left the site, the work was complete and there was no leak evident and that you left on good terms, so it seems odd that they did not want to let you in the house again. As, had I not heard the background, I might assume from that letter that you had left an evident fault or had argued before leaving the site.

Taking YorkshireDave's advice and mixing it with my ideas, I would be inclined to change that first paragraph to something more like:

I made a 'no fault and without prejucide' offer of £150 as a goodwill gesture. I believe this was a fair offer under the circumstances: I was not given an opportunity to inspect, or allowed to repair, the leak you claim I have caused, and was not even made aware that there had been a leak until after you had had it rectified by a third party.
 
Last edited:
Hello everyone, I hope you are all enjoying your weekend. Its taken me longer than expected to get the letter finished.

Here is another letter, I have taken in to account the points you have all made (which I really do appreciate) and edited the letter accordingly. As already pointed out the letter is quite long but I dont know what to take out because to me it all sounds relevant, if anything I could make it longer! As you all read this you will see the info different to me so whatever may seem irrelevant or needs changing, im open to criticism so hit me.


Dear Ms

Thank you for your letter dated 16.9.18, as requested please accept this letter addressing the points you have raised.

I made a 'no fault and without prejudice' offer of £150 as a goodwill gesture. I believe this was a fair offer under the circumstances: I was not given an opportunity to inspect, or allowed to repair, the leak you claim I have caused, and was not even made aware that there had been a leak until after you had had it rectified by a third party.

Having spoken at some length with those you engaged to rectify the issue, they confirm they advised you to ask me back to rectify the issue. They made a point of explaining that you stated your wish was to take me to court to get the money without making me aware of the issue first. This conversation was recorded and I shall be providing transcripts at disclosure.

I have taken legal advice and I have been told I should have been given the opportunity to rectify the fault within a reasonable time frame. This is called 'repeat performance'. If you didn't want me in the property then I still should have been made aware of the problem and a chance to discuss repairs and come to an agreement. I still hope to resolve this matter amicably but I feel what I have offered is more than fair considering everything.


The first I heard of the matter was when I spoke to Mr... (of adress...) on 11th May 2 months after the toilet was fitted. I asked why was I not asked to make any repairs and he said it was because you didn't want me in the property. If you didn't want me in your property to carry out the repairs I still should have been made aware a repair was needed and given the chance to discuss repairs to be made by another plumber. That never happened, Mr... Said its a case of hand over the sum £300 or you will take me to court. I asked for time to get back to him. This caused me considerable distress as I felt I was being blackmailed.

This is the first correspondence from yourself in the 6 months since I fitted the toilet. All other discussions have been between myself and your partner Mr... who said you didn’t want me to do the repairs.

The toilet was not fitted in a faulty way. It was connected to the existing plumbing and the pan fixed using the designated fixing points on the pan. I had no reason to expect there to be heating pipes under the tiled floor as there had just been a pan fitted there previously and it is not good practice to fit pipes where a pan will need to be fixed. There was no sign of a leak as I fitted the toilet and when I returned a few days later to board up the cavity wall there was still no sign of a leak. There is no realistic way I could have checked for pipes being there.

Not a big deal but for any other correspondence I'd like to make you aware that my surname is... and not...


Yours sincerely
 
Reads good to me ash however I would keep the pig waiting until near the deadline she gave you.
Think she did this but haven't read back tbh.
 
It reads well Armyash.
I might have put the lines, -

I will not be held responsible for another trades poor workmanship in regard to your existing pipes location and depth.

I refute the comments in your letter where you retrospectively said ..... the toilet was incorrectly installed .....
I have no option other than to vigorously challenge this allegation

My surname has also been inaccurate.

Armyash, I think I would solely just mention you can provide evidence of what the 3rd party guy told you.
No need to look like at this point that you are taping conversations.
Let the pig guess and over think what you have against her
 
Best said:
It reads well Armyash.
I might have put the lines, -

I will not be held responsible for another trades poor workmanship in regard to your existing pipes location and depth.

I refute the comments in your letter where you retrospectively said ... the toilet was incorrectly installed ...
I have no option other than to vigorously challenge this allegation

My surname has also been inaccurate.

Armyash, I think I would solely just mention you can provide evidence of what the 3rd party guy told you.
No need to look like at this point that you are taping conversations.
Let the pig guess and over think what you have against her
Click to expand...


Thanks, I will do a final edit in the morning to tweak it and use these points and then get it hand written.
 
Personally I would keep it very sort and sweat, the more details you give these people the more they they have to keep this going.
1. Withdraw the £150 offer.
2. There should not have been u/f heating pipes under the pan position, the installation of this was incorrect & invited this situation.
3. Not withstanding the above, You were not informed nor given the opportunity to investigate or repair.

I know it feels like you need to defend yourself Ash & give your side of the story but it will only serve to provide her with more ammunition, the "he said this & they said that" is just hear say & even if you have some proof it is best kept for if the worst happens.
I take it, it was a sealed heating system ?
if so you could aways add later that they must have been topping up the loss of water without investigating where it was leaking so they contributed to their own damage.

I hate these people, pound to a penny she will have access to the Law in some way and they then think they can use it against hard working guy's & girls like use!!!
I have a rule now days I do not work for any of them - solicitors, lawyers, barristers & worst of all judges, if I find out what they do they can take a running jump been bitten too many times.
 
Letter sent today.

30 days from her letter is tomorrow, it was hand delivered by my partner with video evidence showing the letter, and the walk to the house putting it through the letterbox. I know this seems weird but if i'd have sent it recorded delivery through the post there's nothing stopping her just not signing for it. I let my partner do the dirty work because had I done it and bumped in to them there might have been some cross words said and I didn't want to risk that.

Anyway, i'm fairly certain she is going to see this all the way through. I feel like the odds are in my favour, but not in a over confident and arrogant way but I think the repeat performance aspect is good. I'm fully aware I could lose because I don't know what else she is going to say. She might tell a pack of lies and the court might believe her but I do have recorded conversations with her partner where I say that they should have called me and he says she didn't because she didn't want me in the house.

I will keep everyone updated with whatever happens next. Thanks again for everything. As I have said before if I lose in court at least I put up a fight. By I, I mean we.
 
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Armyash all the best also from me.

Relax now as you have done your work on your letter and put the ball back into her court.

If she does put it to Small Claims Court, I assume the procedure is more or less the same all over U.K.

If she foolishly eventually sends an application, it would probably take a fairly long period before the court process sends you the paperwork.
The advantage will be slightly yours, as she will have to include a letter to the court of her basic story, to which you will receive a copy together with court papers.
That means she puts her cards on the table (basically revealing her case) and you can then decide how to respond and to every point.

You usually get 4 options -
(1) you could ignore, but not advisable
(2) you can admit you owe the claim
(3) you can refute it
(4) you can refute it and also counterclaim
Obviously you will go with (3) or (4) option.

A Judge on the court day could decide to split the costs, with no real winner, but I guess that would still be a result.
There is no appeal on a Small Claims Court judgement normally, so always a risk.
But time to consider all of that, only if court papers come to you later.
Remember it is the lowest form of courts and a really minor case and of small change money, so don’t worry about it and just keep standing up for yourself.
 
Hi Armyash. Read this one with interest. I no longer run my business and am back in full time employment so can chat about this quite candidly now.

When running my business I once had to solder a gas pipe in a really awkward space, too tight to even get a mirror round to inspect the joint. The whole gas pipe run we’d done passed tightness testing fine. I got called back to a smell of gas in the airing cupboard. Tested it again and sure enough, a full drop leak. Turned out the solder had not run all the way round the back of the joint. This left a pinhole sealed with flux that passed the industry standard tightness test! Given that I’ve seen with my own eyes a flux pinhole hold back 2 bars of pressure for years on a sealed heating system this was incredibly bad luck..

Transco also attended this job due to a faulty regulator and they didn’t pick the leak up either..

Was this my fault? Not really it just happens, there was no way I could see right round this joint.

Customer wouldn’t let me fix it and told me to leave. Then sent me a bill for BG to rip out the whole central heating system we’d newly installed and to have it all redone as he no longer had faith in my install. I beat myself up over this and had many sleepless nights but ultimately I followed correct testing procedure and thus GSR didn’t find me liable or strike me off.

I politely told his solicitor we wouldn’t pay it as we had not had opportunity to repair the leak which we would have done on the day.

Despite various threats no court action ever came about and that was for a threatened claim of over £5000...

They won’t be successful for any claim if they haven’t given you an opportunity to repair it first. They have a legal duty to minimise costs being claimed for.
 
Just makes me think why didn't you make your excuses and bail on that job? Soldering where you can't see what you're doing at all, even with a mirror, on a gas pipe? You don't have to do every job!
 
Interesting post there cr0ft, thanks for that. Glad you came out of that one unscathed.

I still haven't heard anything but then it took her months to write to me anyway. Surely there must be some sort of statute of limitations.
 
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