Is it wrong to ask for a written estimate?

[carpman]

Hi am wondering if it wrong to ask an heating engineer for an written estimate for a job?

I ask, as i contacted phone a forum recommended engineer about some work on a boiler, from research and asking i have a good idea what the issue is, and seems to be common problem with this boiler.

We spoke on the phone and he told me the hourly rate with no call out fee, the first visit would be to assess the problem. When i asked if he could give me an idea what the cost with be from the information i had on problem, he could not and became defensive.

Fair enough that could not as he had not seen it, so i asked if he could be an estimate once had found out the problem, again he was vague and defensive.

I asked that any estimate be given in writing as well, again he became defensive stating that he was trust worthy, which i am not to know and having bad experiences in past i wanted to safe guard myself.

He then told me he would continue conversation on email and send quote for first visit and to arrange time. I had asked that quote be sent via email.

I sent him a time, but then got a reply that he now had a call out and could not come. I asked if next day was ok, he replied:

No , if you can not appreciate honest tradesman that is trying to help you out , then I am going to walk away from your job .

Am i missing something or are written estimates no longer given by heating engineers?

thanks

 

[SimonG]

You have a problem with your boiler, in my world that is a breakdown. I'll come and find out what's wrong and fix it, all for a cost. Now if you want me to come and diagnose the problem and tell you its £xx to fix part y and z. Then that will cost you as well. That is not a free estimate, it's a diagnosis. My time and knowledge is not a free commodity.

I can see both your point of view and also that of the heating engineer. I would possibly be a bit defensive, but thats because I don't rip people off and expect other people to have the same moral compass as myself.


It's not an easy one but you need a bit of trust in both directions.

Hope you get it sorted and welcome to the forum.

 

[SimonG]

Is this in relation to your last post?

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/i...5-engineer-need-west-london-heatline-c24.html

Is the 'heating engineer' in question from this site?

 

[carpman]

Thanks for reply, sorry if i am a cynic, but having an opened bill for ant repair work is asking to be ripped off.

If i have built a relationship then trust is ok, if i have not that how am i to know i won't be ripped off by cowboy outfit?

I ran car repair garage for 15 years and had to give estimates for all jobs, if did not what the problem was to start with i would take a look and once i knew i would inform customer of the cost.

If he is charging an hourly rate and the first visit is diagnose the problem i see no issue in then asking for an estimate of final based on the fact that he know what needs to be done to fix it?

 

[carpman]

Is this in relation to your last post?



Is the 'heating engineer' in question from this site?

yes it is related

ps could reply till link removed

 

[Keefy]

Also, by definition - an estimate and a quote are two different things.

 

[carpman]

Also, by definition - an estimate and a quote are two different things.

very true, but i could not either?

 

[SimonG]

But do you want the written estimate to shop about or do it yourself or peace of mind?

If I'm fixing something then the diagnosis is free to an extent. But then my world is oil boilers and I can fix probably 90% of issues with gear on the van.

Like I say it's a difficult one. You are looking for somebody you can trust and the engineer is trying to make sure he doesn't get shafted as well.

I think the trust will cost you more money. You are going to have to pay to get the issues diagnosed and then pay to get it fixed after somebody has given you an estimate for the repairs. The problem with this is that once you have fixed one issue on a boiler sometimes it may show up another.

The other side of the coin to this is that you may find it hard to get somebody out under these circumstances. I know I've told customers in the past that I'm not interested, but that's more to do with timing of repairs.

Like I say, I think it'll cost you more to get it sorted but you should be able to find somebody.

 

[carpman]

I want piece of mind.

You keep saying "You are going to have to pay to get the issues diagnosed" surely this what i paying for on the first visit which is diagnose the problem?

Want i want to avoid is someone coming around, saying they can fix and then just replacing parts in hope that sooner or later one will fix the problem. If the first visit (paid for) is to diagnose the problem then he should at least know the labour costs, a quick phone call would give the parts price.

Sorry, but can't understand why this it is so difficult to give a price once problem has been diagnosed?

 

[leaky]

with the engineer on this one back when i started i used to go out and look at a job for free find out what was wrong fan for example give cost of part and fitting to be told will have a word with hubby when he gets home from work never to hear from them again probly buy part themselves and hubby fits it wont do free diagnosis now i dont charge call out but do charge hourly rate.cant allways give a firm quote because thier might be more than one problem .and its not nice to be accused of being a rip off merchent most of us are in this for the long tearm and want to build a good reputation so you will use us again and reccomend to friends and family.i can understand you dont want to get overcharged but i cant belive any of the lads who use this forum spending hours sharing and looking for information because we want to be really good at what we do would do that so a little trust on your part and ime sure it would be well placed

 

[SimonG]

I've re-read this a couple of times and have come to the same conclusion as the engineer that you contacted.

 

[Keefy]

I'm on the fence at the moment but if a customer calls an engineer out to look at a problem then proceeds to imply that they're more interested in the price than the cure it can make one wonder if this customer is wasting the valuable time of a professional tradesman.

 

[carpman]

leaky i am not asking for anyone to come out for free, as already stated i will be PAYING (£55+vat hr) for the first call out to diagnose the problem. I do not have to speak to anyone to ok the job, i just want it in writing how much is going to cost after problem has been diagnosed.

I am a professional photographer and i have to give prices for jobs, i can't just turn up to a job do the shoot and then bill client without telling them how much it will cost.

You may think that photography may not require the same type of diagnoses, but i still have to take into account many factors such as location and type of shoot, what post processing will be needed before given a price.

I am sure all the guys on this forum are hard working and honest, but not everyone out there is and simply asking for written price AFTER the problem has been diagnosed is not being unfair.

I have had issues in the past, and my girl friend, whose flat it is, was ripped by the people who fitted boiler and one on another occasion who claimed to know what wrong, but did not and tried over charging her.

She evidential found a good engineer who fixed it, he did give her a price once he diagnosed the problem.

 

[carpman]

If you car had problem and not just a service, would just leave at a garage for repair with asking them to let you know how much will cost once problem had been diagnosed?

 

[kay-jay]

The way i understand the issue in this thread i have to say i sympathise with the op.

If i am paid as a professional for an initial fault finding diagnosis.
I would not find it difficult to then provide a quote for parts and labour for the second visit.

If for example it is a scenario where two or more faults could be responsible for the symptoms i would communicate this with the customer and in this case estimate the potential costs.

 

[carpman]

The way i understand the issue in this thread i have to say i sympathise with the op.

If i am paid as a professional for an initial fault finding diagnosis.
I would not find it difficult to then provide a quote for parts and labour for the second visit.

If for example it is a scenario where two or more faults could be responsible for the symptoms i would communicate this with the customer and in this case estimate the potential costs.

This is all i am asking for

Thanks

 

[peteheat]

Appears there has been a problem with communication, most engineers can give a guide cost don't be surprised if the guide ranges to as much as a replacement boiler.

How much are you willing to pay for a written quote or guide cost?

Very few (if any) tradesmen have a laptop and printer in their van so they must call or return to the office and type up the estimate, post it or deliver it back to the customer,
all valuable expensive time which someone must pay for.

Then we have what I call the attitude test, an each way experience some potential customers don't like mine and equally I may not like simple things like the tone of their voice
when they ask a specific question or indeed the question itself.

The overall size of the job can also be an issue, the appliance may be beyond economical repair try explaining that to someone who believes he has already diagnosed the problem.

Self employed is an inaccurate job title (we just have many employers) that carries many responsibilities, we are responsible to both the customer and ourselves, if the enquiry or
enquirer doesn't somehow feel right I reserve the right to refuse the job just as the consumer can refuse to employ my services.

It appears that both you and the party in question were not designed to get along or there was some misunderstanding, I have no doubt there is a tradesman out there for you
just a matter of finding him / her.

P.S. Ever had a bad day yourself?

May account for your experience.

 

[stevetheplumber]

part of the problem may be the fact that you have already diagnosed the problem iim always defensive of customers who already know whats wrong as your never sure if theyve already had someone look at it and shafted them its just one of those things that sets the alarm bells ringing in the same way that your not prepared to trust the engineer we often get the bad feeling about customers
for breakdowns its normal to charge a diagnostic fee

 

[REDSAW]

i never give a quote to fix a problem i quote to fix a fault on a boiler.

i charge a diagnosis fee to find a fault with the boiler, before informing the customer what it is i want paying for that.
i am not quoting for the complete guarantee of a faultless boiler fix!! i am quoting for a fault that is found that needs doing first, this is because after fixing one thing other faults may be found after.
yesterday i went to look at a boiler, it was totally dead. it requires at least one pcb if not two before it will even switch on!.
then it will or will not show any other faults going through the ignition sequence.

the only real quote for a guaranteed fix is 'you need a new boiler luv' comes to mind.

 

[TBServices]

If I gave a written estimate for every single repair I did, I'd spend 50% of my time writing, and thus not working.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

How could you OP send quote to repair car without even seen the car !!!
I told you , bring the boiler over to me and I will give you the requested estimate to repair and once I have done the job then you could pay me and then you could have had your boiler taken home with you . How about that ?
You need to get to belive people that are willing to help you , when you need help.
Like I said new diverter is £150+ vat were new boile just the same as yours is £500 inc Vat .
You need to learn how to speak to people and have respect to the one that are willing to bring your/ her boiler back to live .

 

[Leo21]

Best thing the op can do is go to bg for a fixed price repair. Us small businesses can't afford to faf around.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

that is what I also recommended him over the phone to ring BG

 

[woodsy]

The only people generally who would give a firm price on boiler repairs are the manafacturers who charge anywhere between 200 and 300 pounds to turn out - you pay this whether its a 5p fuse or something bigger. They buy parts at a tenth of engineers prices and take a gamble that most of their jobs will be small. This covers them for the jobs which lead to several parts which as alluded to in previous posts can occur. Unless i am reading it wrong you are wanting a fixed price not an estimate. I can assure you that there are many more rogue customers out there than engineers and rightly or wrongly i also would have alarm bells going off in my head that if anything else occured with the boiler you would be trying to back out of payment.

 

[Keefy]

I think the problem here is that the customer is suspicious and on their guard due to an earlier incident which didn't turn out too well. This is the problem we all have to bear when a cowboy (in the customers eyes) gets his mitts into a job before we turn up. 'We' meaning 'proper plumbers/engineers'.

Maybe he has a reason to be on guard but he needs to understand that some tradesmen out there have the customers best interests at heart as well as bringing home the bread.

 

[petercj]

BG advertise a fixed price from - which I take to mean a quote for the repairs required following inspection. I doubt any quote given by BG is going to be cheaper than an independent.

BG are also quite adept at muddling up their fixed price repairs (from) for non BG customers, with their fixed price excess payments that are part of their Home Care cover plans. Their adverts make it look as if they are the cheapest, whereas we all know that they are nearly always by far the most expensive.

Vaillant do a fixed repair fee, but it doesn't include heat-exchangers.

An estimate, written or verbal, is just an assessment of what the cost might be if the diagnosis is correct, and the repair goes as planned. If unforeseen work is necessary, then it's likely to cost extra. But then maybe the OP understands that.

 

[peteheat]

Having looked back through the thread it appears to me that there is very little learned by comparing different sectors in the service industries

"I ran car repair garage for 15 years and had to give estimates for all jobs, if did not what the problem was to start with i would take a look and once i knew i would inform customer of the cost."

At which time you had possession of the car and it was clocking up a bill just for being in the garage, how many of us have had the "Gun to the head" feeling when we got that phone call?

Any problem with a customer paying you keep the car, the reality is we can't stay in a persons home preventing them from using the boiler or the parts we have fitted.

"I have had issues in the past, and my girl friend, whose flat it is, was ripped by the people who fitted boiler and one on another occasion who claimed to know what wrong, but did not and tried over charging her.

She evidential found a good engineer who fixed it, he did give her a price once he diagnosed the problem."

It appears from your own posts that you have tarred everyone in this industry with the same brush, a question that arises is why not employ the "Good Engineer" again?

Despite how this thread may read to consumers the majority of the people in this sector are neither cowboys or stupid, one overcharged visit to a particular property / customer is not how we build a business, we want the same consumers calling us at least once a year to service the appliance and to continue calling us for breakdowns and the ultimate boiler replacement.

We also want them to supply our details to friends and family and to bring our contact details with them should they move home, they are our wants.

We need the consumer to trust us, I have attended four breakdowns this week where money has not been mentioned, (reminds I should be doing the invoices not typing here), the reason money was not mentioned is the customers trust me, even when I do have to advise about expensive parts the job gets done because I will not leave a customer without heat they will pay when they can (I hope).

Trust works both ways, one thing left out of the original diagnosis was a possible PCB fault I know that if I present the PCB as the problem the customer will most likely doubt my findings simply because he hasn't seen a similar diagnosis on the internet.

So now i ask me, would I want this customer?

Guess the answer.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Answer is yes !!!

 

[Keefy]

"I ran car repair garage

My brother had a garage at one time, it was called Seaman Rd Garage - "Where Everyone Comes" - not kidding.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Its quite obvious this person has no trust in what a engineer is going to tell him, So his best course of action is to call out the Boiler manufacture on a fixd price repair and they will give him a gurantee but it will cost around £300.00,

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Good luck to OP , he needs it !
My boiler works fine and if I need work done on my van I will ring him to take care of my van , I will then explain the fault over the phone and will ask him to sent me email with exact price to fix it

 

[carpman]

You guys need to face the facts that plumber/heating engineers have bad reputation due to the many cowboys out there, to change that you need to differentiate yourself from them and foster good customer relations.

From i can see this forum is trying to do that, but there are still a lot cowboys out there.

I will now respond to some point mad since last post, even though it seems some people have failed to read my post correctly.


1. Bring boiler to me, don't do remote estimates . I was happy to pay engineer to come out and diagnose the fault.

2. Self diagnoses is bad? How come this forum is full of people asking for information for self diagnoses?

3. Remote diagnoses can't be done, again this forum is full of people giving remote diagnoses without seeing boiler

4. Never give fixed quote, never asked for one, asked for a ball park figure

5. Unknown fault can't give a price, this is common issue with this boiler, this engineer told that the issue i is very common with boilers. If it is common and repaired on regular basis you should be able to give an estimate.

6. Written estimates take time, have to go to office type it up etc With smart phone / tablet a email can be written in less then 5 min in front of client. If part prices are not known just give labour charge.

7. How can you an estimate to fix a car without seeing it, without seeing car clutch repair £*** leaking radiator £*** new brakes £*** If unknown fault will bring car to garage diagnose and then phone with estimate. Note i will give price before doing work.

8. Estimates take time and money, been called out for them by people just looking prices! What wrong with customer looking for best price?

9. Don't give free estimates, When i ran garage i would often go out to customer and give free estimates for crash repairs, if you check this is still common practise.

11. Why don't i use the previous good engineer, he has moved away.

12. Speak with respect, i was polite and if asking for a written estimate is disrespectful i glad you not doing the job and will recommend to all i know not to use you.


I said was in the motor industry, which like the building / plumbing industry has bad reputation with the general public, and yes i had to deal with my fair share of difficult customers. I fully understand concerns with just being used to find a price, but that is same for every industry and should be factored into you business model.

I worked hard to over come the public perception of motor trade, aiming for good customer service. After i sold garage i move into the IT support industry, if you think diagnosing a boiler fault is time consuming and has many variables for faults then try computers. Even with the many variable fault possibilities we offered a no fix no fee policy.


I stand by my point that after paying for fault diagnoses i can asked for written estimate / quote.

 

[SimonG]

SGI is a respected member on here and a good engineer.

We don't need to face facts, you may not like it but the engineer you ring is in the driving seat. He's selling a service that you need, he's obviously felt something is not quite right and has rightly decided that on this occasion he is not prepared to offer his services.

You may feel better for having your 12 point moan, but has it fixed your boiler?

 

[carpman]

SGI is a respected member on here and a good engineer.

We don't need to face facts, you may not like it but the engineer you ring is in the driving seat. He's selling a service that you need, he's obviously felt something is not quite right and has rightly decided that on this occasion he is not prepared to offer his services.

You may feel better for having your 12 point moan, but has it fixed your boiler?

It is this attitude "we are in the driving seat so we can hold to ransom" that gives good engineers a bad name.

Yes it is his right to turn down a job, i have done so myself in the past, but to get defensive and claim that asking for a written estimate is disrespectful is not good customer relations.

I have about to phone a company that charges more, but they will come out and diagnose and then give a written estimate.

Now that is good service and i am happy to pay more.

I will chalk this up as another example of why people are wary of tradesman and move on.

Thanks for all you replies

 

[petercj]

Have a look in your local paper - there are a number of engineers who give free estimates in mine.

As you rightly recognise, an estimate is little more than a ball-park figure, and not a quotation to put the boiler back in working order, but some people take an estimate to be the latter.

If someone is going to call, and assess the problem, and put an estimate in writing, and come back again, it's invariably going to add to the cost of the repair.

BG say they do fixed price quotes, but in my experience BG usually charge twice the average rate anyway, so 'knowing where you stand' comes at a price, but I suppose the pain is up front.

Generally, consumers are advised to get more than one estimate for a job, but life is often not as simple as it seems when someone is being wise after the event, i.e. those who tell someone who has been ripped off that they should have got a price before having the work done.

There are pros and cons on both sides, but how they get handled will vary from one tradesman to another, so keep looking and keep asking until you find someone you feel comfortable dealing with.