Indirect Unvented cylinder, Combi Boiler and Nest Thermostat

[Chris1012]

So many posts on here now, hard to keep up and on topic.
Does this mean it should or should not take 40seconds to get hot water from the taps?

 

[Bibbs118]

Something that is always over looked on these installs is if the dhw draw off from the combi is to a frequency used hot tap, the boiler sits in anti cycle for 5 mins every time the flow turbine moves, meaning it can take hours to heat the cylinder.

 

[Chris1012]

As requested, Pictures from the cylinder. Seems the hot feed from the top of the cylinder is branched off - 1. Specifically to the upstairs bathrooms x 2 (1st floor and loft).
2. The rest of the house

 

[Best]

Who lagged the discharge pipes?
Also I would get that plastic push fit stopend replaced with a brass compression stopend

 

[Chester]

Ew, polyplumb

 

[Welder]

Wonder if they wore a wool shirt too... Who the hell puts that rubbish on. Especially in a cold space like a basement...

 

[Scott_D]

Any pictures of under the boiler, 2 port valves etc around the cylinder

It is insulated, not they way most would do it but I don't think it specifies anywhere what standard if insulation must be used?

 

[Welder]

It's about appropriateness. If that space get s down around freezing then it needs better protection.
If however it's to protect against rodents, then that works brilliantly as they don't like the fibrous nature of it and leave it alone... Instead they use the polyplumb elbows to sharpen their teeth

 

[Chris1012]

Any pictures of under the boiler, 2 port valves etc around the cylinder

It is insulated, not they way most would do it but I don't think it specifies anywhere what standard if insulation must be used?

Unfortunately not, as the pipes from the cylinder are all under the panel that has been fixed back to the cupboard.

The location of the boiler is within the kitchen.

I believe there is a 3 port valve, 2 of the ports are for underfloor heating within the kitchen/diner area.

 

[Chris1012]

It's about appropriateness. If that space get s down around freezing then it needs better protection.
If however it's to protect against rodents, then that works brilliantly as they don't like the fibrous nature of it and leave it alone... Instead they use the polyplumb elbows to sharpen their teeth

Never gets below around 15 degrees

 

[Best]

I am surprised if MIs state just 28 minutes for that cylinder reheat.??? I would have thought it is much more.
The hot water outlet on unvented cylinders I prefer to drop the pipe before ever raising the pipe to a higher level. Just raising a hot outlet will mean some of the stored heat from the cylinder will keep heating the water in the raised pipe, therefore wasting energy.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I am surprised if MIs state just 28 minutes for that cylinder reheat.??? I would have thought it is much more.
The hot water outlet on unvented cylinders I prefer to drop the pipe before ever raising the pipe to a higher level. Just raising a hot outlet will mean some of the stored heat from the cylinder will keep heating the water in the raised pipe, therefore wasting energy.

20kw going into the coil will re heat in around 30 mins

 

[Best]

20kw going into the coil will re heat in around 30 mins

I am going to check the MIs on Telfords.
I thought they claimed it to be much longer.

 

[Chris1012]

From the Telford user manual

 

[ShaunCorbs]

That's the direct on have a look at the indirect spec

 

[Best]

35 minutes for full reheat, is what I read on 250l indirect.
Not bad, if that's correct.
I have one installed isn't achieving that

 

[ShaunCorbs]

35 minutes for full reheat, is what I read on 250l indirect.
Not bad, if that's correct.
I have one installed isn't achieving that

Size of boiler ?

 

[Chris1012]

That's the direct on have a look at the indirect spec

That was indirect. My cylinder is 250l

 

[Best]

Size of boiler ?

30kw WB gas boiler. It is my partners house, so something I am aware of. Pipework all mine, except the gas, so no bother there.
I need to investigate it more.

 

[Best]

That was indirect. My cylinder is 250l

View attachment 33580

Yes, I got same on searching. 35min from cold to 60 degrees

 

[ShaunCorbs]

30kw WB gas boiler. It is my partners house, so something I am aware of. Pipework all mine, except the gas, so no bother there.
I need to investigate it more.

Yea should be able to heat that no problem

 

[Welder]

What flow temp is that at tho?
I've just installed twin 150L OSOs and they state recovery rates at 80 degs flow!! Still, makes it look good

 

[Chris1012]

What flow temp is that at tho?
I've just installed twin 150L OSOs and they state recovery rates at 80 degs flow!! Still, makes it look good

How can the flow rate be confirmed/checked?
The cylinders temp is around 65c

 

[Welder]

Its the boiler flow temp that OSO quote at 80 degs. Most boilers closer to 70 so recovery rate way longer than stated depending on coil design (ability to transfer heat).

 

[Chris1012]

Its the boiler flow temp that OSO quote at 80 degs. Most boilers closer to 70 so recovery rate way longer than stated depending on coil design (ability to transfer heat).

apologies for my ignorance, I am not technical at all.
My understanding was once the cylinder is heated up, the outlets would draw the hot water from the cylinder and not the boiler anymore...?

 

[Welder]

We are at cross purposes.

The outlets do indeed draw their water from the cylinder. As the stored HW is used then temperatures at the outlets reduce.

What I was talking about was the time taken for the temps to recover (go back up). Most manufacturers give an indication of the time taken to heat a cylinder of cold water to approx 60 degs C. To understand whether this is realistic (indicative of the world we inhabit not the one manufacturers inhabit) we need to know the temp of the water going in (the lower the temp (say winter) the longer the recovery time, and the temp of the heating water through the coil. Most heating coils operate at approx 70 deg C buit the one I was referring to said it assumed a heating coil temp of 80 degs C. Frankly its unrealistic.

Bottom line. Take ALL numbers issued by manufacturers with a BUCKET of salt. YOUR circumstances dictate what will happen as every installation is different.

HTH

 

[AWheating]

The cylinder will only heat up at the time in the instructions in ideal conditions. Unlikely in real world situations. Time the hot water to be on without the heating so it's coil gets the boilers full output and it won't take too long. Have the heating on and it will get a share of the boilers output. Best to set hot water to come on one hour before heating times.

 

[AWheating]

a combi with an unvented cylinder is fine, all manufacturers will happily agree to this. Most manufacturers will have a drawing showing there boilers with cylinders. They won't show the full technical spec of an unvented cylinder of course as that's down to the cylinders manufacturer to spec.

 

[Chris1012]

The cylinder will only heat up at the time in the instructions in ideal conditions. Unlikely in real world situations. Time the hot water to be on without the heating so it's coil gets the boilers full output and it won't take too long. Have the heating on and it will get a share of the boilers output. Best to set hot water to come on one hour before heating times.

During last weeks heat wave, I was testing the hot water at each outlet. As the weather has been pretty mild since last week, the heating has not been on at all.
When I am testing the hot water at each tap, no other service is in use, including rads or UFH.
However it seems to still be the same heat up time from last week until today - average of 40seconds to get hot water!

 

[Welder]

Ahh. Is what you are talking about is the time for the hot water to reach the taps? If it is there is nothing you can do without massive investment. This would be the same issue regardless of whether an Unvented cylinder or combi is installed in the same place. It is a product of the distance the water has to travel and an UVC cannot, for obvious reasons, be located as closely as say a combi can in a kitchen.

 

[Gasinspect]

We now fit a circulating pump on the hot water from the cylinder. Combi heats it fine, all hot water taps from cylinder so no time lag. Put circulator on a ceiling mounted proximity sensor so that runs for 15 minutes when activity in the bathroom area. The kitchen sink near enough not to need circulation.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

We now fit a circulating pump on the hot water from the cylinder. Combi heats it fine, all hot water taps from cylinder so no time lag. Put circulator on a ceiling mounted proximity sensor so that runs for 15 minutes when activity in the bathroom area. The kitchen sink near enough not to need circulation.

You mean a src (secondary return circuit)

 

[Welder]

Im assuming that too Shaun. Fact is tho that is not always an option. Plus, in its life, it wastes huge amounts of energy if its a retrofit because no pipework will be insulated. Frankly its cheaper to waste water.

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Combi on unvented is fine. If you’ve got your 2 port valve and all other G3 kit installed correctly then there nothing wrong with that at all. Assuming it’s installed correctly the coil is just like another radiator

 

[Harvest Fields]

Combi on unvented is fine. If you’ve got your 2 port valve and all other G3 kit installed correctly then there nothing wrong with that at all. Assuming it’s installed correctly the coil is just like another radiator

That’s also what we were saying mate