Had a Power Flush now looking for a bit of advice

[Tom163]

Hi all,

This is in no way a blame thread for the recent work I have had done as the guys were top notch, just looking for a bit of advice on a few puzzling questions I have since.

I had a power flush done as two of my 12 radiators were not getting hot in anyway even though the flow pipes were red hot. The flush fixed this but we also had to have the water pump changed also at the same time as it was on its way out.

Since the flush and pump change the system does seem a lot better but:

1) Now 2 radiators (not the same ones that used to be stone cold) seem to have a hissing sound coming from them TRV side. If I turn the TRV up or down just a little this noise goes away but does return a while later.

2) It sounds to me like there is a rushing water sound coming from most of the radiators...this is not loud but I cant recall it being there before.

3) I have bled the upstairs radiators a few times since the work 2 weeks ago and each time I have had air or gas coming out of 3 of them.

4) On one radiator the pipe leading to the lock shield valve started leaking which I then tightened up (blue arrow) but not sure if this was due to pressure or the clean by the flush. Picture below showing where it was leaking from:

**I think during the work the flow and return sides of the radiators have swapped (not sure how this could have happened) as I am sure they were opposite sides before. From my knowledge the all the TRVs are multi directional though.**



A bit about my system:

Open Vented, tanks in loft, hot water cylinder in airing cupboard along with new water pump (set on 3).

Boiler is oil fired, Worcester Bosch conventional (not combi or system) located in downstairs utility room.

TRVs on all rads apart from one in hallway which I believe is bypass.


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[king of pipes]

Trv rad valves often make that noise when they begin to close especially the cheaper brands , your system is alot cleaner now with a new pump fitted so the flow rate through the system should have been improved this can possibly make the system seem noisier providing your engineers vented correctly and added a good quality inhibitor the system should settle down , any leaks need attention the radiators which seem sluggish turn off all the rads that do work vent any air fire up again and let the pump move any air trapped until they get hot you may find speed 2 is sufficient once the air is removed . Cheers Kop

 

[Rob Foster]

Trv rad valves often make that noise when they begin to close especially the cheaper brands , your system is alot cleaner now with a new pump fitted so the flow rate through the system should have been improved this can possibly make the system seem noisier providing your engineers vented correctly and added a good quality inhibitor the system should settle down , any leaks need attention the radiators which seem sluggish turn off all the rads that do work vent any air fire up again and let the pump move any air trapped until they get hot you may find speed 2 is sufficient once the air is removed . Cheers Kop

are trv rad valves worth the hassle and expense or just an expensive add on promoted by instalers and retailers ....
centralheatking

 

[Aire]

are trv rad valves worth the hassle and expense or just an expensive add on promoted by instalers and retailers ..
centralheatking

It's not just promotion, it's regulation and I would say definitely worth it, especially in bedrooms and the expense shouldn't come into it as 1. They're not that expensive and 2. Over their life, the gas saved will more than pay themselves.

 

[rpm]

are trv rad valves worth the hassle and expense or just an expensive add on promoted by instalers and retailers ..
centralheatking

Would expect a centralheatking to know the answer.

 

[Ric2013]

are trv rad valves worth the hassle and expense or just an expensive add on promoted by instalers and retailers ..
centralheatking

It depends on whether the room in which the TRV was fitted would otherwise have been prone to heating to a level above that strictly necessary. If not, then a waste of money, if yes, then a very simple way of reducing fuel use.
If a manual valve needed replacing anyway then the extra cost of a TRV is so little that it is hardly worth worrying about.

 

[Ric2013]

**I think during the work the flow and return sides of the radiators have swapped (not sure how this could have happened) as I am sure they were opposite sides before.

Only if they reversed the pump direction for some reason? Did they?

 

[fronty]

Open Vented, tanks in loft, hot water cylinder in airing cupboard along with new water pump (set on 3).

I'd try turning the pump down to setting 2. You have a similar system to me, I have 13 rads and it's totally silent on setting 2 but setting 3 introduces a slight noise.

 

[Rob Foster]

It depends on whether the room in which the TRV was fitted would otherwise have been prone to heating to a level above that strictly necessary. If not, then a waste of money, if yes, then a very simple way of reducing fuel use.
If a manual valve needed replacing anyway then the extra cost of a TRV is so little that it is hardly worth worrying about.

I just think TRV are intermediate technology, they read the temperature in a very odd place in a room....right next to the radiator generally, switch the flow off and on at will often causing the pump to pump against itself. Proper zone controls based on temp readings taken where people actually are and when present is better, we are very close now to mini affordable BMS in all homes its just joining all the dots up and making the set up affordable. Some of this stuff in BQ and from BG is very expensive when the components cost buttons
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[townfanjon]

I just think TRV are intermediate technology, they read the temperature in a very odd place in a room....right next to the radiator generally, switch the flow off and on at will often causing the pump to pump against itself. Proper zone controls based on temp readings taken where people actually are and when present is better, we are very close now to mini affordable BMS in all homes its just joining all the dots up and making the set up affordable. Some of this stuff in BQ and from BG is very expensive when the components cost buttons
Rob Foster aka centralheatking

WTF are you driveling on about now

 

[king of pipes]

Now now Town take a chill pill bud ha ha , there are so many ways to control a systems all us GSR,s will have done the energy efficiency course so are fully aware of what is expected from us, each job is different another problem we often face is cost often we are quoting against competitors who offer the basics and not alot else it's not often we are given a free hand and can give the job it's full and often complex control , I think insulation and draught proofing homes plays a big factor in keeping heating costs down and at a comfortable temperature . Happy new year all kop

 

[Rob Foster]

Now now Town take a chill pill bud ha ha , there are so many ways to control a systems all us GSR,s will have done the energy efficiency course so are fully aware of what is expected from us, each job is different another problem we often face is cost often we are quoting against competitors who offer the basics and not alot else it's not often we are given a free hand and can give the job it's full and often complex control , I think insulation and draught proofing homes plays a big factor in keeping heating costs down and at a comfortable temperature . Happy new year all kop

Thanks KOP as you quite correctly state modern heating and controls is a wide arena. I am sometimes in a place to see what the future of our industry might be and attempt to pass this information on. What you collectively make of this info is entirely your choice and I read and evaluate all,your replies.
Micro BMS ...building management systems are arriving very soon ...but in a co ordinated manner not haphazard hive or whatever formats ....and they/it maybwell be cheap ...believe me
I have been shown the future.
It will be an exciting 2019 regards Rob Foster aka centralheatking

 

[Rob Foster]

WTF are you driveling on about now

watch me ..I know what will happen ...roughly ..Bms in normal homes is arriving very soon....We are used to detractors in this dynamic and vibrant fast moving plumbing and heating industry ..my advice to you is keep up to speed and make more dosh
Rob Foster aka centralheatking
Trv are intermediate units ok they are legislated and have to be installed ...I know that...this does not make them better

 

[townfanjon]

Give up , whats the difference between BMS and smart control / open therm / WC .... none .

 

[Rob Foster]

Give up , whats the difference between BMS and smart control / open therm / WC .. none .

a totally co ordinated centrally monitored regional bms centres monitoring all aspects and doing soft and hard intervention 24 hrs 365
I know arriving soon...these centres will be signing up good engineers to earn good rates backed up,by smart operators not just students paid by the hour ....for a script response
centralheatking

 

[townfanjon]

a totally co ordinated centrally monitored regional bms centres monitoring all aspects and doing soft and hard intervention 24 hrs 365

Coming to a home near you !!!!
I will wait patiently for this to happen , because in a home it wont .

 

[Rob Foster]

but in loads of rented gaffs, housing trusts etc. all the huge
tower blocks springing up in succesfull citys I know
anyway ...have a good new year
regards to you townfanjon
centralheatking

 

[townfanjon]

you said homes , as I said several times , no chance .

Maybe on larger projects on brand new “ insulated to death “ apartments types .

A standard home with the right levels of insulation , WC , smart controls and a load of common sense by the home owner will work pretty well .

 

[king of pipes]

Well I can't see it catching on Rob if I am honest mate people need to be educated on how to use and control their heating, you can put the best system money can buy in a home if it leaks heat then it will be a waste of time, weather comp is not that great either in my opinion as we are all different what one person thinks is comfortable may not be suitable for another lost count of the amount of call backs I get saying my heating not working properly ? well it is missus ! but try educating them well the radiators dont get hot and I'm always cold grrrr , smart control I can see the benefits but why make things more complicated than it needs to be . Cheers kop

 

[Rob Foster]

Well I can't see it catching on Rob if I am honest mate people need to be educated on how to use and control their heating, you can put the best system money can buy in a home if it leaks heat then it will be a waste of time, weather comp is not that great either in my opinion as we are all different what one person thinks is comfortable may not be suitable for another lost count of the amount of call backs I get saying my heating not working properly ? well it is missus ! but try educating them well the radiators dont get hot and I'm always cold grrrr , smart control I can see the benefits but why make things more complicated than it needs to be . Cheers kop

its already on the way for community housing, delivery we understand 18 months ...it will monitor temp, humdity, gas water and electricity consumption and many other add ons all reporting back to a central control whom will dictate call out protocols , soft or hard
Rob Foster ...centralheatking

 

[rpm]

How about some hard facts instead of all these claims you make about the future Rob.

 

[Old Account]

Well I can't see it catching on Rob if I am honest mate people need to be educated on how to use and control their heating, you can put the best system money can buy in a home if it leaks heat then it will be a waste of time, weather comp is not that great either in my opinion as we are all different what one person thinks is comfortable may not be suitable for another lost count of the amount of call backs I get saying my heating not working properly ? well it is missus ! but try educating them well the radiators dont get hot and I'm always cold grrrr , smart control I can see the benefits but why make things more complicated than it needs to be . Cheers kop

So true! Somehow I am facing the same problem. When I install smart controllers the homeowners don’t understand the weather comp. how it works. For them to work means roasting hot rads but if you have warm radiator that means for them issues. But to be fair it really starts with the simplest which insulated exterior walls, floors etc. Then it goes down to single or double glazing etc. These are all factors which are important for thermostatic Radiator valves to reduce the fuel.

 

[Rob Foster]

How about some hard facts instead of all these claims you make about the future Rob.

I suppose that when the installation programs start I will able to,up date you. by housing trust and region. Any claims I make are at present of no consequence unless you have a particular commercial intrest

 

[rpm]

I suppose that when the installation programs start I will able to,up date you. by housing trust and region. Any claims I make are at present of no consequence unless you have a particular commercial intrest

See that`s where the old CHK and Rob Foster differ. CHK was a hands on experianced plumber and heating engineer offering solid help where as Rob Foster is a design kind of guy who keeps saying "Trust me, I have seen the future, it is coming" or "I have dinner with the CEO" etc etc. Sorry Rob but I prefer the old CHK.
Wishing you a good 2019.

 

[Rob Foster]

See that`s where the old CHK and Rob Foster differ. CHK was a hands on experianced heating engineer offering solid help where as Rob Foster is a design kind of guy who keeps saying "Trust me, I have seen the future, it is coming" or "I have dinner with the CEO" etc etc. Sorry Rob but I prefer the old CHK.
Wishing you a good 2019.

I am listening rpm ...lets have a good 2019. CHK

 

[Ric2013]

I do see the point about mini-BMS but I also see that people will not understand them. Many years ago, before I was qualified, I re-vamped my mother's heating system. TRVs in common areas, zone control valves in all rooms and bedrooms and room thermostats. The bedrooms had programmable thermostats controlled by the main programmer so the bedrooms could be held at a low temperature until the evening (unless they were needed for study purposes etc in which case the stat manual over-ride was used), meaning they only got a quick blast before bed time.

Problem is no one else except me could get their head around the system. Even my mother whose house it was. While my mother and I were away, a lodger took off the lockshield heads and opened the balancing valves fully in an attempt to improve heat output to that room, presumably (thus throwing the entire system out of balance).

People couldn't understand why a room wasn't heating up when the programmable stat was clearly calling for heat (because the main programmer had switched the heating off), or why a room wasn't heating up when they had switched the system on, or they would turn a thermostat up to 25 in the belief that the room would somehow reach 18°C more quickly when the stat was at 25.

Probably a mini-BMS would be more intuitive and I will be interested to hear more details.

Meanwhile, when someone has a (?) balancing issue, I cannot understand why you would recommend that they remove the TRVs. They are not looking for a new system: they are trying to make the one they have work to its original spec.

 

[Rob Foster]

I do see the point about mini-BMS but I also see that people will not understand them. Many years ago, before I was qualified, I re-vamped my mother's heating system. TRVs in common areas, zone control valves in all rooms and bedrooms and room thermostats. The bedrooms had programmable thermostats controlled by the main programmer so the bedrooms could be held at a low temperature until the evening (unless they were needed for study purposes etc in which case the stat manual over-ride was used), meaning they only got a quick blast before bed time.

Problem is no one else except me could get their head around the system. Even my mother whose house it was. While my mother and I were away, a lodger took off the lockshield heads and opened the balancing valves fully in an attempt to improve heat output to that room, presumably (thus throwing the entire system out of balance).

People couldn't understand why a room wasn't heating up when the programmable stat was clearly calling for heat (because the main programmer had switched the heating off), or why a room wasn't heating up when they had switched the system on, or they would turn a thermostat up to 25 in the belief that the room would somehow reach 18°C more quickly when the stat was at 25.

Probably a mini-BMS would be more intuitive and I will be interested to hear more details.

Meanwhile, when someone has a (?) balancing issue, I cannot understand why you would recommend that they remove the TRVs. They are not looking for a new system: they are trying to make the one they have work to its original spec.

Hi Ric2013 ..thank you 4 your considered reply..I really appreciate the time and thought you have applied.
1. mini bms are on their way and I will always keep UKPF informed.
This new generation of mini Bms is exciting and the inter connection is going to be awesome...and quite affordable.
anymore will break confidentiality at present.
2. you are correct ...I was wrong to introduce this to a discussion about TRV in a domestic arena.

I understand that they are mandatory just like condesing boilers ....however...my opinions on both are reserved

Have a good 2019 Ric2o13 kind
regards Rob Foster ....centralheatking

 

[Ric2013]

A happy new year to you too!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

but in loads of rented gaffs, housing trusts etc. all the huge
tower blocks springing up in succesfull citys I know
anyway ...have a good new year
regards to you townfanjon
centralheatking

tower blocks dont have gas more likly have hius

 

[dan_the_plumber]

Only if they reversed the pump direction for some reason? Did they?

The only way this might be possible is if they removed pump for power flush then put it back on wrong way around

 

[Rob Foster]

tower blocks dont have gas more likly have hius

mini bms are not limited to gas fired systems but are a total domestic building management scheme linked back to a management suite, they will monitor, gather data, make decisions about maitenance, and handle soft and hard interventions
Rob Foster aka centralheatking