Grabbed By The Balls

[village idiot]

Village Idiot,

I think you, with the help of others, have convinced yourself not to take on the work.

What the....is wrong with you and others!
Has there been a positive post about this thread...no...all negative.

From what i can gather, you don't have any confidence in yourself or your ability to undertake the tasks requested, then you advertise the fact in a public forum.

Well Oz plumbah, you are 100% correct. I mean, with a name like Village Idiot, how on earth do you expect me to know much? I come here and put it in a public forum because I need help doing things and building my confidence. What other reason will they be of me joining a forum if not to look for help?

Well, even though myself and the landlord had agreed 5 boiler installation jobs, The first a Combi swap was to be today, I have decided to follow my gut instincts and bail out of it. I had up to mid-day yesterday to make up my mind. People have their own way of doing work. I have mine. My standards remain mine, and I have no intention to deviate from them just to please anyone. Obviously, if I realise someone's else's way of doing ''work'' is better, then I will follow that.

As an example, for every boiler that I fit, I ensure that the flow and return pipes directly below the boiler are fitted with drain valves. Even for Baxi boilers whose flow and return unions have drain valves. I also fit a full bore lever valve to the cold feed to boiler. Are these requirements, NO, but it is my way of doing things and the drain valves assist me with my flushing the system.

So when a ''customer'' says I should give them a list of all my materials so they can deliver them, then querry why I need drain valves and lever valves etc when all I am doing is swapping over a combi for another? I can only take so much headache. If customer is paying top dollar, then ofcourse, I'm prepared to bend backwards to please them. But for someone who is penny pinching, I do not have the time and patience for these lot. I was recomended to him by another landlord who pays top dollar, which is why I have even given him this much allowance to see reason. My patience has ran out. I AM OUT

 

[Millsy 82]

Maybe the landlord has been done in the past which is why he is querying things. It could of been the bloke was doing the job for £120 a day then siphoning bits? I would of met him at a job and talked through what you do what you use and then take it from there. He of course could be a penny pincher and I find meeting people face to face helps spot that.

 

[village idiot]

Maybe the landlord has been done in the past which is why he is querying things. It could of been the bloke was doing the job for £120 a day then siphoning bits? I would of met him at a job and talked through what you do what you use and then take it from there. He of course could be a penny pincher and I find meeting people face to face helps spot that.

Some would say: how much is a couple of drain valves, lever valves etc? why not just throw them in and get the ''lucrative'' contract?
My theory is once you start letting them get away with it, they soon believe little bits should rightly come off your daily rate. I did meet him at the address where combi swap was to be done, and walked him through what I will be doing. But seems he constantly wants to querry things he has been asked to provide?

 

[woodsy]

The tone of your posts tells me that in the back of your mind the alarm bells are ringing. I sense only financial pain and grief from this landlord. I don't mind grief, it goes with the job to a degree but not at £120 per day.

 

[Millsy 82]

I've worked for a few like that some just want reassurance others are just a pain. I wouldn't use anything off my van for them unless their paying. I would say x amount will get you 3mtrs 22mm per job etc and add it to your rate anything over that is extra and chargeable.

I'm not saying you have made a bad choice you could of made the best decision of your life sometimes it's not worth the hassle. It's up to you what you take on or pass up that's the joy of working for yourself.

 

[village idiot]

I am all for trying to grow a business. But how much growth can you allow in a business before you loose control? Am I short of work, NO. So why give myself an headache when I could just take life at an easy pace? You only live once. I am convinced I made the right decision.

 

[wetdrip]

£250-£300 a day, to be paid at the end of every week.
Explain to him why you wish to incorporate, your addons:
drain valves and lever valves etc, as it's good sound engineering, and you're adamant you will not change your work code ethic.
As it's in his long term interest as these addons will save him money.

Posted too late.

 

[WaterTight]

so has he let go of your balls yet?

 

[Ermintrude]

Old apprentice called me at 5, some landlord offered him loads of fiddle work, he called me for advise, said yes go for it. She has lots of houses, I said and how did she get them? By not paying full wack or what a jobs worth! Get paid in full before you start or don't bother.

 

[village idiot]

so has he let go of your balls yet?

Mo have not heard from him yet, so I'm hoping he has decided to let go if my 'balls' -.
i did advice him to get quotes from other plumbers as it's highly unlikely I will be doing the jobs. But, at the back of my mind, I can just envisage him sending me an email on Monday or Tuesday saying: 'All materials you requested have been delivered to address, so can you please arrange a date for replacing boiler with tenant?' Now, that will really pizz me off. But as said, my mind is made up. I'm not going to do any job for him regardless.

 

[Sag]

So instead of even trying to sit down and negotiate, terms you walk away from thousands of pounds of regular work. Madness.

 

[Ermintrude]

And hours of stress and weeks waiting for money .

 

[Sag]

Not if a proper agreement could have been reached. Instead, tar the landlord with the same brush and turn away work.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Tell him to kiss your bum

and walk away before is too late

 

[oz-plumber]

In reply to my post,

VI - I personally don't think you have given this Landlord and yourself enough time to negotiate.
He may well be a ***** - he may well think tradesman are not worth the money they charge.

But at the end of the day, you have made a decision on negativity and been made to feel that you are required to meet his demands / requests.

That may be well and true.

All it may have taken is for you to stand your ground and have a decent discussion on the phone or face to face.
Some things are worth having a go at.. and my point of view is that this was something worth having a go at.
You have made a decision not to have a go at it - fair call.
But I feel you have rolled over and given up without putting your point or services provided across.

Personally, I would have put my best foot forward and tried to negotiate a deal that would be beneficial to myself and offer whatever to make it happen.
I would not have worked at reduced rates, nor would I have cut corners to get the deal.

It may not have gone anywhere - but I don't think you put enough effort in to try and benefit yourself.

I don't have any harsh feelings towards you or your business dealings - that's your business.

Everyone has had bad dealings with landlords and estate agents, but not all estate agents and landlords are bad.

I just feel that you have let go of an opportunity that you haven't pursued fully.

No harsh feelings

Oz Plumber

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Dear OZ plumber ,

trust me , if you had worked here for at least a weak you would have realised what sort of people LL and Est agents are !!! Not waistimg my time of typing it , I am sure you have read lots about them

 

[Millsy 82]

Dear OZ plumber ,

trust me , if you had worked here for at least a weak you would have realised what sort of people LL and Est agents are !!! Not waistimg my time of typing it , I am sure you have read lots about them

There are a lot of rogue plumbers about does that mean you are one too? You are tarring all landlords with the same brush? You have to take people as they come. A lot are bad but there are some good ones about too.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Sure I am one of them lol
yeah I agree

 

[MOSSEP]

As much as I like to agree with a fellow tradesman, I can see the issue from the Landlords point of view as well.

If I had a large portfolio of properties, I would know that I have a good thing to offer someone who is capable of doing the work. I would also want to be certain that I was getting this large amount of potential work done at the best price possible. Owning property is a business not a hobby and you do it to make money. I don’t suppose you shop at more expensive wholesalers unless you have a good history and relationship with them.

I would want to know that the stranger I am asking to do my work is not going to take the pish out of me, and if that meant that I wanted to buy the materials and only be charged for labour then so be it. I’m sure that after a few jobs you could have built up a good working relationship with potentially a large amount of work, and if it didn’t work out, you would not have lost anything either – other than maybe a few days where you may have earnt a bit more elsewhere.

 

[MOSSEP]

As said landlords that big don't appear from no where.
nor do they change engineers unless the engineer throws in the towel from the crap.

VI will quote then be told what he's going to get paid regardless, if he refuses he will lose the lot.

cousin has over 80 properties, he won't even offer me the work as he knows i won't play ball with him.
Nor put up with the crap his current guys takes.

15 quid a cert + boiler service.

he also farms the installs to anyone thats cheaper than his current guy.

carrot on the end of the stick, have to put up with bully tactics to get a sniff of it.

I hope your landlords are more agreeable in oz!
hope your government is also harder on em

Ive picked up work where the previous companies work was crap, where they became to expensive, where they were dishonest and also where they died! It hasn't got to be about the previous contractor throwing in the towel.

 

[Killy Bing]

Ive picked up work where the previous companies work was crap, where they became to expensive, where they were dishonest and also where they died! It hasn't got to be about the previous contractor throwing in the towel.

true! I should have expanded on that part to be fair

 

[Andyswad]

Too many eggs in one basket etc..

I can understand you walking away, I personally don't want too big jobs or contracts, Small jobs, quick payment or invoices.
I do work for a letting agent and do all their work but do get paid every month but when the invoice reaches £1000 I get nervous, that's my mortgage I cannot afford to loose that much.
£200 for PCB's is my biggest outlay any more than that and I get customer to buy or pay upfront, I do not hold merchant credit accounts just cash accounts. No bills at end of month to worry about then, buying boilers and waiting for payment is not for me

 

[woodsy]

As much as I like to agree with a fellow tradesman, I can see the issue from the Landlords point of view as well.

If I had a large portfolio of properties, I would know that I have a good thing to offer someone who is capable of doing the work. I would also want to be certain that I was getting this large amount of potential work done at the best price possible. Owning property is a business not a hobby and you do it to make money. I don’t suppose you shop at more expensive wholesalers unless you have a good history and relationship with them.

I would want to know that the stranger I am asking to do my work is not going to take the pish out of me, and if that meant that I wanted to buy the materials and only be charged for labour then so be it. I’m sure that after a few jobs you could have built up a good working relationship with potentially a large amount of work, and if it didn’t work out, you would not have lost anything either – other than maybe a few days where you may have earnt a bit more elsewhere.

Being a self employed gas engineer is also a business and paying a gas engineer / business the equivalent of £ 15 per hour is taking the p@@s. It's a two way street in my opinion, the landlord gives plenty of work for which if he pays a fair rate and gets in return an engineer who jumps through hoops and is reliable allowing BOTH to make money. The old adage, of you pay peanuts you get monkeys spring to mind.

 

[village idiot]

I have been to TOO MANY landlord jobs where things went wrong. Can you guess why? Because they wanted to get it done at the cheapest price??? As has been said, and as I keep reminding them: Pay cheap, pay twice.

I am 100% convinced I made the right decision.

Some would argue that this thread should not be in the open forum as landlords will see it? I'd say it is better in the Open Forum so they can access how we feel about the work we do for them and how we would like to be appreciated and compensated for the work we do.

I am all for tradesmen/women doing work ''on the cheap'' if they so desire. But one thing you need to realise is this: If after doing the job, there was a leak, etc, the customer will not consider that you were paid peanuts. He would be on your case asking that you rectify the situation. In this regard, I will always charge a ''Fair'' daily or hourly rate, and as a result, do a decent job and not rush things or be grumpy as I would be thinking I could be on another job, earning a better wage.

 

[Ermintrude]

Had one today paid £10,030 invoice was £10,035. So shall invoice for the £5 tomorrow.
Another Asked for a price to do a bbu to flombay, told them on spot she hummed and made noises , so how much to fit then. Sorry supply and fit or do one. Started parping on, got in van and shouted bye!

 

[emergencyman]

I've had landlords saying I have 100s of properties can you do me a deal?

Of course I will, I reply, Its only fair that someone putting a lot of work my way gets looked after.

(Landlord smiles nodding his head).

This is how it woks, I say, I charge you the first ten jobs/hours at my usual rate, then you get the 11th free.

(Landlord looks confused)

Like at Subway,I reply

 

[village idiot]

Had one today paid £10,030 invoice was £10,035. So shall invoice for the £5 tomorrow.
Another Asked for a price to do a bbu to flombay, told them on spot she hummed and made noises , so how much to fit then. Sorry supply and fit or do one. Started parping on, got in van and shouted bye!

When he gets balance of bill and pays up, drive round there at your convenience and hand him over a £4.99 bottle of wine from Asda, saying: 'this is just a courtesy call as I was in the area and just stopped by to see if everything is ok?'
Now, that will leave him very confused!!!!

 

[emergencyman]

By the way Village idiot, I think you did the right thing.
I very rarely work for landlords, simple reason is this.

Custard: Its his home and first and foremost is to get the job sorted to high standard, cost is an issue but not too important.

Landlord : It`s just a game. Object of the game is to collect as much as possible and spend as little as possible, even if that means treading on a few toes along the way. By working for a landlord you become part of his game.

 

[oz-plumber]

Landlord : It`s just a game. Object of the game is to collect as much as possible and spend as little as possible, even if that means treading on a few toes along the way. By working for a landlord you become part of his game.

Is this not the game we all play?
We try and charge customers as much as we can - spend as little as we can on materials.
The world wouldn't rotate financially if this 'game' was not played.

Oh - by the way - this game is not a new thing -!!!

 

[village idiot]

Landlord : It`s just a game. Object of the game is to collect as much as possible and spend as little as possible, even if that means treading on a few toes along the way. By working for a landlord you become part of his game.

Is this not the game we all play?
We try and charge customers as much as we can - spend as little as we can on materials.
The world wouldn't rotate financially if this 'game' was not played.

Oh - by the way - this game is not a new thing -!!!

If that be the case, why is Ray giving away things for free?

 

[Ray Stafford]

If that be the case, why is Ray giving away things for free?

Option a) Because I am a generous soul, who believes in charity and goodwill to all men OR

Option b) Because it is in my commercial interests to persuade product manufacturers that it is in their commercial interests to give me product, which I then distribute for free in order to generate reviews for the manufacturer, and drive traffic to my website. Incidentally, this is also in the commercial interests of those who get the freebie (obviously) AND those who read the reviews, thereby gaining free information from a source which they trust. A rare case of win-win-win.

Its one of the above. Damned if I can work out which.

 

[Heith]

Well after waiting 11 weeks for £250 which was only paid today after a threat of a small claims court, I can personally guarantee I won't touch another letting/estate agent with a large pointy :nono: stick again

 

[Ray Stafford]

Well after waiting 11 weeks for £250 which was only paid today after a threat of a small claims court, I can personally guarantee I won't touch another letting/estate agent with a large pointy :nono: stick again

Virtually every bad debt we have ever suffered has been from a plumber.

By that logic, we would stop dealing with plumbers!

If your bad debtor had been (for example) an accountant, would you stop dealing with all accountants?

 

[Heith]

Virtually every bad debt we have ever suffered has been from a plumber.

By that logic, we would stop dealing with plumbers!

If your bad debtor had been (for example) an accountant, would you stop dealing with all accountants?

No but I'd make sure I was paid in cash before touching the job! - please don't try and defend the undefendsable!

 

[SimonG]

Option a) Because I am a generous soul, who believes in charity and goodwill to all men OR

Option b) Because it is in my commercial interests to persuade product manufacturers that it is in their commercial interests to give me product, which I then distribute for free in order to generate reviews for the manufacturer, and drive traffic to my website. Incidentally, this is also in the commercial interests of those who get the freebie (obviously) AND those who read the reviews, thereby gaining free information from a source which they trust. A rare case of win-win-win.

Its one of the above. Damned if I can work out which.

Well I can work out which one.

Grrrrrr.

I find it amazing in my neck of the woods that i can order a white hopper, down pipe and fittings one day and get it delivered less than 24 hrs later from a company, Williams, at the other end of the country when all the merchants around here are quoting me 3 to 4 working days delivery.

VI, have you ordered anything from Williams?

Hats off to Williams again. Cheers Ray.

 

[oz-plumber]

Well after waiting 11 weeks for £250 which was only paid today after a threat of a small claims court, I can personally guarantee I won't touch another letting/estate agent with a large pointy :nono: stick again

Narrow minded attitude in my books.

 

[oz-plumber]

If that be the case, why is Ray giving away things for free?

Does that really need explaining?

It's not because he is a nice guy and thinks that Plumbers need a break every now and then.

 

[village idiot]

Well I can work out which one.

Grrrrrr.

I find it amazing in my neck of the woods that i can order a white hopper, down pipe and fittings one day and get it delivered less than 24 hrs later from a company, Williams, at the other end of the country when all the merchants around here are quoting me 3 to 4 working days delivery.

VI, have you ordered anything from Williams?

Hats off to Williams again. Cheers Ray.

No Simon, I have not ordered anything from Williams but have bought above counter. Would have ordered when the £20 voucher was on but shower panel I needed was not one they stock. As it happens, it was only delivered yesterday???? 10 days after it was ordered? I was told two working days. Madness.

I am going to my local branch on Monday to buy some chrome pipes and fittings. As for the freebies on here, I genuinely wish all those who win my regards, but as for myself, I hold no hope of getting one. Please, no need for anyone to start calling me names. I know I will not be ''fast'' enough to get through, so have no intention of trying.

Ray, I prefer to collect most of my stuff from branch. My worry is, when I need summat delivered at a work address, it might be declined as your website says first order must be to home (registered) address. May be I should order something to be delivered at home just to be on the safe side.

 

[village idiot]

No have not heard from him yet, so I'm hoping he has decided to let go if my 'balls' -.
i did advice him to get quotes from other plumbers as it's highly unlikely I will be doing the jobs. But, at the back of my mind,

I can just envisage him sending me an email on Monday or Tuesday saying: 'All materials you requested have been delivered to address, so can you please arrange a date for replacing boiler with tenant?' Now, that will really pizz me off. But as said, my mind is made up. I'm not going to do any job for him regardless.

Very strange things happen. I have just received an email informing me that everything is at address and tenant is expecting a call from me to say what day I can replace the boiler?
Strange, very strange. All this while, and he still is grabbing at my balls? Amazing

 

[armyash]

What are you going to do?

I would go and do that job, see if all materials you need have been sorted correctly then see what he's like paying and take it from there.

 

[Ray Stafford]

No but I'd make sure I was paid in cash before touching the job! - please don't try and defend the undefendsable!

I'm not trying to defend the indefensible.

If Mr Smith pays badly, it makes Mr Smith a bad payer. It doesn't make everyone in his road a bad payer, it doesn't make everyone called "smith" a bad payer, and it doesn't make anyone who shares his occupation a bad payer.

The only way to be sure you never get a bad debt is to never give credit. Thats a business decision that will work for some people and not for others. If there was only one "perfect" business model for all plumbers, there would only be one plumbing company, and we would all work for them.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Ray, I prefer to collect most of my stuff from branch. My worry is, when I need summat delivered at a work address, it might be declined as your website says first order must be to home (registered) address. May be I should order something to be delivered at home just to be on the safe side.

Hi VI.
Don't worry about that - the "first order must go to home address" is just a security measure to make sure that the user isn't taking a stolen credit card for a walk.

It may trigger a security call, but if you mention that you are known in the branch, and Alan or Abby vouch for you, we will work round it.

 

[aligorgon]

i am a landlord and a plumber

can i have a credit account please ray ???

 

[Ray Stafford]

i am a landlord and a plumber

can i have a credit account please ray ???

Fill in the form dear boy, and we will judge you on your merits!

 

[aligorgon]

I am just taking a look now Ray

 

[oz-plumber]

Very strange things happen. I have just received an email informing me that everything is at address and tenant is expecting a call from me to say what day I can replace the boiler?
Strange, very strange. All this while, and he still is grabbing at my balls? Amazing

Now is your chance......grab him by the balls.
Just like chess...dangle the carrot...just have some 2 or 3 moves up your sleeve.

Pretend you are going to do him a favour...and crucify him.
How you do or manage this is up to you..
The ball is in your court now!!!

 

[leelister6]

Do the job and keep all the paperwork till he pays up. No money, no papers, no warranty. You've only lost time if he doesn't pay then you'll know if your instincts were right. With customers I don't know, I always work like this (on larger jobs) Let them supply the gear and charge a day rate that you both can agree on then get paid before you do the next job or no more workee mistah landlawdee!

 

[Ermintrude]

Do job commission then remove gas valve and wait till your paid.