Gas related question - is that still ok ?

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Hi guys,

As everybody knows I am currently doing my acs course and I had my 4th lesson done. We are currently calculating pipesizing.

However, currently I have got a job were we install a new central heating system and a complete new gas pipe from scratch.

I was yesterday calculating if we installed the right pipe size. I came to the conclusion that when you've got more than 1mbar drop you will need to upgrade the pipe to the next bigger pipe size.

I calculated over a 1mbar drop with the installation we have got. So basically my tutor meant we should upgrade to the very next size which would be 28mm.

Could anyone give me an idea if I am correct or not?

13,5m of 22mm pipe
5 pulled bends, 3 x 22mm elbows

My mate said, it is fine we don't need to upgrade the pipework... I believe him as he's experienced and I am sure it will work but usually you should upgrade according to my logic gas book.

Kind regrads
Ron
 
If you are doing your ACS you should have all the relevant books and paperwork to allow you to calculate it. Also your mate who is signing it off, is ultimately who needs to be happy with it as he is the one doing the paperwork and signing it off. You seem to question him quite a lot on here.
 
mfgs said:
If you are doing your ACS you should have all the relevant books and paperwork to allow you to calculate it. Also your mate who is signing it off, is ultimately who needs to be happy with it as he is the one doing the paperwork and signing it off. You seem to question him quite a lot on here.
Click to expand...
I am undertaking right now my Theorie and based on what I learned I was wondering what you guys would do.

I am not questioning his knowledge as I know he has got the knowledge. It is a good practise for me train on site for the future, therefore I was calculating the pipe size and found out that pipe should be upgraded to 28mm. I am pretty sure it will work with 22mm but as mentioned regarding to my book and regs it should be upgraded.

Wouldn't you wonder a little that he did not calculate at all the new gas pipe? He just said it's 22mm it will be enough. I am also a little curious as he never does a gas tightness test when he installed new boilers nor services ? So I think ive got a reason to question a little.
 
You've missed one bit of info load on the gas pipe just boiler or boiler cooker fire etc and kw rating or m3/h

And if let's say it's 18 mbar at the meter and 16 mbar at a test nipple under the boiler (gas valves add more restiveness normally listed in mi)

It would need a bigger pipe installed (if this is a new install) if it's just a service / check different ball game
 
What appliances?
Have you tested the pressure drop or just working it out on paper?
 
Matchless.plumb said:
I am undertaking right now my Theorie and based on what I learned I was wondering what you guys would do.

I am not questioning his knowledge as I know he has got the knowledge. It is a good practise for me train on site for the future, therefore I was calculating the pipe size and found out that pipe should be upgraded to 28mm. I am pretty sure it will work with 22mm but as mentioned regarding to my book and regs it should be upgraded.

Wouldn't you wonder a little that he did not calculate at all the new gas pipe? He just said it's 22mm it will be enough. I am also a little curious as he never does a gas tightness test when he installed new boilers nor services ? So I think ive got a reason to question a little.
Click to expand...

You clearly have concerns over his work and knowledge, maybe its better to find someone else until you are qualified rather than constantly trying to check up on him.
 
scott_d said:
What appliances?
Have you tested the pressure drop or just working it out on paper?
Click to expand...
I just worked it out on paper without including the gas hob.

I just calculated pipe length 13,5m and the boiler with 27kw.

@ShaunCorbs i just have a boiler with 27kw, and a gas hob and the gas supply is brand new from scratch.
  • Front left: High-speed burner - 3 KW
  • Rear left: Standard burner - 1.7 KW
  • Rear right: Standard burner - 1.7 KW
  • Front right: Economy burner - 1 KW
I didn't even include the gas hob and if I include that I will have even a bigger drop of mbar.

@mfgs i am just cautious as I am clearly running a business which means i cannot allow myself to have complaints from my customers. However it's not relevant right now If i am having an issue or not the question i was asking if the pipework should be upgraded or not.
I appreciate your help and advise and respect what you are saying.
 
wtf you need to do a tt as if the system is leaking its down to you

are you 10000% sure he never did a tt
 
Matchless.plumb said:
I just worked it out on paper without including the gas hob.

I just calculated pipe length 13,5m and the boiler with 27kw.

@ShaunCorbs i just have a boiler with 27kw, and a gas hob and the gas supply is brand new from scratch.
  • Front left: High-speed burner - 3 KW
  • Rear left: Standard burner - 1.7 KW
  • Rear right: Standard burner - 1.7 KW
  • Front right: Economy burner - 1 KW
I didn't even include the gas hob and if I include that I will have even a bigger drop of mbar.

@mfgs i am just cautious as I am clearly running a business which means i cannot allow myself to have complaints from my customers. However it's not relevant right now If i am having an issue or not the question i was asking if the pipework should be upgraded or not.
I appreciate your help and advise and respect what you are saying.
Click to expand...

but its off the same line as the boiler true or false?
 
ShaunCorbs said:
wtf you need to do a tt as if the system is leaking its down to you

are you 10000% sure he never did a tt
Click to expand...
I know it's wrong that's why I am wondering about the 22mm pipe size if that's enough or if that has to be upgraded
 
Matchless.plumb said:
I know it's wrong that's why I am wondering about the 22mm pipe size if that's enough or if that has to be upgraded
Click to expand...

give us the full facts then cant work it out half arsed

do a drawing of the gas line elbows ts appliance etc

distances from meter to to the cooker t cooker t to boiler you get the drift

will work it out for you but need everything
 
ShaunCorbs said:
naughty naughty
Click to expand...
The only thing he does is gas rate, and flue gas checks. When he Services he doesn't hieven take the boiler cover off. We recently serviced a conventional boiler potterton and he just checked 2 x gas fires with smoke test, flue gas analysed, and that was it. So I think I have got a reason to be concerned
 
ShaunCorbs said:
give us the full facts then cant work it out half arsed

do a drawing of the gas line elbows ts appliance etc

distances from meter to to the cooker t cooker t to boiler you get the drift

will work it out for you but need everything
Click to expand...
Ok give me a minute please.
 
Matchless.plumb said:
The only thing he does is gas rate, and flue gas checks. When he Services he doesn't hieven take the boiler cover off. We recently serviced a conventional boiler potterton and he just checked 2 x gas fires with smoke test, flue gas analysed, and that was it. So I think I have got a reason to be concerned
Click to expand...

yes and no stnd bg service

do you know the fga reading off the boiler?
 
ShaunCorbs said:
give us the full facts then cant work it out half arsed

do a drawing of the gas line elbows ts appliance etc

distances from meter to to the cooker t cooker t to boiler you get the drift

will work it out for you but need everything
Click to expand...

image.jpg
 
right since cooker and boiler are so close dont need to worrie about cooker just add it in with boiler

boiler 27kw + cooker 8 kw = 35 kw

aprrox 0.3m for a pulled bend and 0.5m for an elbow

so 6 pulled bends and 4 eblows

13.5m + 1.8 (pulled bends) 2m (elbows) so total = 17.3m

so you need 35 kw at 17.3m from the meter

its on the max drop of 22mm so i would recommend 28mm giving a drop of 0.40 mabr

(to work it out into m3/h)

kw / 10.65 = m3/h (35/10.65 = 3.28 so 3.30m3/h

so look at your table of m3/h that copper can carry and you will see 22mm will just but its maxing it out
 
ShaunCorbs said:
now your learning give us 5 mins
Click to expand...
ShaunCorbs said:
hows the copper going from the meter to the appliance in the floor? if so wooden ? etc
Click to expand...
The copper runs in the floor under floorboards.

I have got exactly similar counting as you.

Pulled bend of 22mm copper -> 0.30, elbow 0,60, 1x22mm T 1,80 which is reduced to 15mm copper pipe to the hob.

I've got a loss of 1,23mbar roughly.

So, I am right in upgrading the pipework to 28mm which will give me around 0,39 mbar drop.


Thanks for your massive help.

Much appreciate it. I wasn't that wrong with my calculation.
 
Matchless.plumb said:
The copper runs in the floor under floorboards.

I have got exactly similar counting as you.

Pulled bend of 22mm copper -> 0.30, elbow 0,60, 1x22mm T 1,80 which is reduced to 15mm copper pipe to the hob.

I've got a loss of 1,23mbar roughly.

So, I am right in upgrading the pipework to 28mm which will give me around 0,39 mbar drop.


Thanks for your massive help.

Much appreciate it. I wasn't that wrong with my calculation.
Click to expand...

the question is what would you do
 
ShaunCorbs said:
the question is what would you do
Click to expand...
I will speak to him tomorrow and will tell we will need to upgrade the pipework. I cannot do much more than that. But I also will proof him with my calculations that's running on maximum. What would you recommend ?
 
Matchless.plumb said:
I will speak to him tomorrow and will tell we will need to upgrade the pipework. I cannot do much more than that. But I also will proof him with my calculations that's running on maximum. What would you recommend ?
Click to expand...

i would say you've worked the calcs out and what does he think (show him your workings)

two outcomes

1 he agrees with your calcs
2 he says it will be fine, after that he gets sacked / kicked off the job
 
ShaunCorbs said:
i would say you've worked the calcs out and what does he think (show him your workings)

two outcomes

1 he agrees with your calcs
2 he says it will be fine, after that he gets sacked / kicked off the job
Click to expand...
Where did you get the 10.65 from?
 
am just cautious as I am clearly running a business which means i cannot allow myself to have complaints from my customers.

You need to forget all about working pipes sizes out and be worried about the 2 unsafe situations you have left. I would be ringing another GSR right now to go and test the 2 boilers that your company have left untested.
Then I would find another GSR who does know what he's what he's doing before you take any more gas related work on.
 
stani said:
am just cautious as I am clearly running a business which means i cannot allow myself to have complaints from my customers.

You need to forget all about working pipes sizes out and be worried about the 2 unsafe situations you have left. I would be ringing another GSR right now to go and test the 2 boilers that your company have left untested.
Then I would find another GSR who does know what he's what he's doing before you take any more gas related work on.
Click to expand...
I definitely will sort that out now! Thanks for the advice.
 
Matchless.plumb said:
That's what's written in my logic book
Click to expand...

work it out then i come up with 351 m3/h on a 35 kw boiler for 0.095 :D

for 0.00995 i get 3.51 m3/h which is about right
 
ShaunCorbs said:
work it out then i come up with 351 m3/h on a 35 kw boiler for 0.095 :D

for 0.00995 i get 3.51 m3/h which is about right
Click to expand...


I don't want to discuss you may be right but that's what I have got in my logic book

image.jpg
 
What's the arrangement on these jobs Matchless?? Are you just giving him the work and the customer pays him directly or are you subcontracting him in for the gas work (nothing illegal about that). If it's the latter, in law you are responsible as well if he leaves any defects so be very careful.

I went to another gas fitter about half way through my portfolio after it became clear the one training me was, shall we say, not very knowledgeable.

I haven't bothered to do the pipe sizing calculations but what I will say is the tables are quite conservative already. As long as the figures come within the allowable values in the table it should be fine. Clearly there are other issues with this guy too, I'd be tightness testing pipework on completion of any boiler installation.
 
cr0ft said:
What's the arrangement on these jobs Matchless?? Are you just giving him the work and the customer pays him directly or are you subcontracting him in for the gas work (nothing illegal about that). If it's the latter, in law you are responsible as well if he leaves any defects so be very careful.

I went to another gas fitter about half way through my portfolio after it became clear the one training me was, shall we say, not very knowledgeable.

I haven't bothered to do the pipe sizing calculations but what I will say is the tables are quite conservative already. As long as the figures come within the allowable values in the table it should be fine. Clearly there are other issues with this guy too, I'd be tightness testing pipework on completion of any boiler installation.
Click to expand...
Hi cr0ft,

Basically the job is from me and we are doing together the full central heating and 1st and second fix bathroom. He is definitely responsible for the gas works as he holds the license. However, I do understand what you mean and therefore I am quite careful in regards the jobs now. I definitely have to watch him more than I thought and will need to get another engineer for the next jobs. It is pretty hard to find the right person to work with. Somehow everyone takes a Sod or just tries to screw me over with money. I am just willing to find someone who is honest and reliable and trustworthy. I should be learning from someone who is gas safe and not me telling him things like the fire places that the stones have to be checked if they have the right order otherwise it could produce carbon monoxide.

Somehow he doesn't take me really serious as person just because he is very knowledgeable.

Now, I think I have to change things again and need to look for someone else's. Thanks for your advise too is much appreciated!
 
Yes. Remember that the GSR members on here (and of course the plumbers too) who are willing to give their time to help folk are generally the better ones. You're obviously learning now that just because someone is qualified doesn't mean they do the job properly. Unfortunately some people chase the money rather than chasing quality and the money following. The ones who chase money always fall flat on their faces.

The silly thing here is if the gas pipe needs upgrading he could make some more money from doing it!

You have a good attitude and personally I think you will go far in this trade. Where are you doing your Gas training again? Does the trainer there still run his own business? Mine did and I ended up going out with him for free to get qualified. Wouldn't take that long and might be a better way.
 
I honestly appreciate
cr0ft said:
Yes. Remember that the GSR members on here (and of course the plumbers too) who are willing to give their time to help folk are generally the better ones. You're obviously learning now that just because someone is qualified doesn't mean they do the job properly. Unfortunately some people chase the money rather than chasing quality and the money following. The ones who chase money always fall flat on their faces.

The silly thing here is if the gas pipe needs upgrading he could make some more money from doing it!

You have a good attitude and personally I think you will go far in this trade. Where are you doing your Gas training again? Does the trainer there still run his own business? Mine did and I ended up going out with him for free to get qualified. Wouldn't take that long and might be a better way.
Click to expand...

I honestly appreciate the help of everyone on this forum. Even though some people have different solutions and opinions. But I think that's important it would be boring if everyone of us does the same.
I already invested too much money for the first course which I lost and therefore take it very serious. I do not have time to waste for the courses so I want to pass with the first attempt. My academy called " alpha building services" they are always fully booked and doing ok. The tutor I've got stopped working now but I have got a chance of calling some of their engineers to finish my portfolio which is very good.

I hope you are right, in terms of I'm going far in this trade :) ... I am pretty sure I'll one day that's the final aim though :)

But as you said it's a lot to learn and I am aware of that. I learn everyday but always the hard way.
 
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