Flue distance from structual opening

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basildog

My mate (structual engineer ) wants his new boiler in the kitchen but the distance from the window reveal to the wall is only 220mm now I know the flue will be elbowed up and away from the opening so that is not the question he has in his head that there should be 150mm clear before forming flue opening I always thought it was 100mm which is still pushing it !
Any thoughts ?
 
That is the answer I expected but the question is the opening not the termination ?
 
Yes I know that I am not explaining it very well the flue will be terminated away from the opening it is how close to the window the core can be I suppose is really the question .
combustion air can be drawn 150 mm from an opening I know but again in this case that will not work either as I have seen a plume kit used in that case this is about purely the hole ?
 
Fanned but that is not the issue it is the proximty of the core to the edge of the structual opening ?
 
AlexGas said:
Unless one really, really wants to. Have to stand way back though! ;)
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We all think that but the funny thing is I was talking to him about just that and actually it can normally be proved that the weight i.e the load above will be cantilevered to the opposite side even if you removed the bricks below one side .
He is a bit of a whizz with calcs as you would expect often doing silly calcs when bored ,down to proving an vertical broom stick wil carry a load of more than a tonne ! Why would you bother ?
 
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basildog said:
We all think that but the funny thing is I was talking to him about just that and actually it can normally be proved that the weight i.e the load above will be cantilevered to the opposite side even if you removed the bricks below one side .
He is a bit of a whizz with calcs as you would expect often doing silly calcs when bored ,down to proving an vertical broom stick wil carry a load of more than a tonne ! Why would you bother ?
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You are the Boss. Go for it.
 
I am not even doing the job he is a mate and another mate was there this morning to do platering etc they wanted advice on where the flue will be going I am now thinking he will have to take another route which then throws up a whole new set of problems !!!!!!
 
From what I understand if for example it states 300mm from an opening then the actual core hole needs to be 300mm away not the flue terminal. Im sure it was in the June 2014 edition of Registered Gas Engineer not long ago about it, Basically it stops you being able to use a plume kit to get the terminal the required distance away etc.
 
flues.jpg

Dimensions A, B and C are 300mm for a fanned flue
 
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In reply to Myles
That is not how I understood it and have seen a few installs not complying with that then !
It was alaways 150 mm for air and yes 300 for poc but a flue could be elbowed externally or as you say a plume kit used .
Is this another rule change ?
 
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Just checked tb016 says plume management kit must not be used to circumnavigate standards. My lecturer pointed it out and he is a gs inspector too that was his take on it so I stick to that lol
 
Just had him on the phone again after I gave him the good news !
2 options now as window opening to patio door only 560 mm so going between not an option .
Ist option is wall mounted boiler below window which I doubt will fit
2nd option flue into ceiling void trimming out 2 joists
Original boiler was wall mounted below window and sounds like an old balanced flue from his description
 
My take on it is that you are ok forming or coring 150mm from a structual opening but as you say a plume kit cannot be used but an elbowed flue termination can as long as the termination point is 300mm from opening ?
 
I think the main point he was making was the actual core hole being the required distance away as that is classed as the flue termination from the building. I just make sure the hole is required distance away that way nothing can be said! It may have been updated in BS after TB016.
 
I get what you are saying but am sure that is not the case as the termination is where the poc`s` are discharged surely ?
Better tell him to get night storage heaters I think !
I can see why a plume kit is not allowed but surely a purpose made flue elbow is ?
 
I think it could be to do with if the flue failed at the exit point then the 'outlet' could then end up too close to an opening, you should install the flue with the hole at minimum distance as though it would be a horizontal terminal in the first place and then route it along whichever route is required.
 
I have just read the technical data for vaillant variable termination kit and that seems to blow all the regs and rules out of the window ??????
Confused . com
 
Yes a phone call to them may be in order I think !
Has anyone ever used one when in a fix then ?
 
You have to love all these so called rules and regs as this all seems to make a total nonsense of them all ?
My mate now says core it 25mm from opening and sleeve flue through 150mm steel pipe or box section that will now carry load not there really is any .
This all ok until Mr I go by the standard rules and that is 150mm and 300 mm respectively turns up to do a service or gas safety check this will do his bonce in ?????
 
some manufacturers allow you to be 150mm from a structual opening if you plume away. Worcester bosch being one.
 
As said already, check the manufacturers instructions on a particular boiler. You can download most installation instructions.
 
AWheating said:
some manufacturers allow you to be 150mm from a structual opening if you plume away. Worcester bosch being one.
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That is what I mean you get so many mixed opinions on all these regs it seems that they all think they are right ?
 
basildog said:
That is what I mean you get so many mixed opinions on all these regs it seems that they all think they are right ?
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As mentioned the Manufacturer instructions is king here then you look to regs.
Worcester to name one allow you to put your core 150mm from building fabric as long as plume kit takes the flue discharge at least the standard 300mm from the opening.
This is not a complicated issue to grasp.
 
No not complicated but then you get those that say they will only do as regs state and gsr state in tb`s etc nothing is ever simple .
 
Bas you know as well as i do what will be structurally safe. Sometimes i think they write the regs for the brain dead but at the end of the day we need to follow them.
In my own house (cobblers bairns) i do as i please and know what is and is not safe but out in the big bad world i'll clamp down on anything that isn't as it should be in the books.
Btw look at an Ideal logic or a Glow worm with a rear flue.
It will save a lot of hastle in the future as they can be stuck below the window:wink:
 
MI's always 1st port of call! Just saying what I have been told before if manufacturer states otherwise its fine
 
why arnt you in the gas safe private forum?

same rules apply to others!
 
Ok sorry if in wrong place but am not sure I understand why the location of a structual opening and fluing options should be contraversial
 
basildog said:
Ok sorry if in wrong place but am not sure I understand why the location of a structual opening and fluing options should be contraversial
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Are looking forward to going through all of the above with your GSR boiler installer? Hope it goes well.
 
I am gsr just not doing this and it really is an awkward one as to be honest I still do not think it can be done it may well have to be under the window which totally messes up the kitchen ,he has already had the Ooooooh you cannot do that it has to 300mm and that`s that brigade out to look, but him being an engineer they always want to know why and then design something to make it happen .
 
Tell him it's because it's the regs and he doesn't need to know why. He just needs to accept it. Plain and simple.

To engineer around it runs the risk of turning it into an illegal installation and one anyone in their right minds would be walking away from.

Baz. I need you to pm gas man or REDSAW with your gsr details please.
 
Some people in this world do not just accept that is the reg`s if we did then nothing would ever be designed or built that solved problems it would be a sad world to live in when you think about it !
As stated vaillant have a flue they say is ok at 50 mm from structual opening for combustion air but without a chat with technical not sure about that one !
The other thing is as said many will take the line Ooooh I have not seen that before and yes they will class it as an illegal installation when in reality it will not be ?
Always springs to mind when a client decided to have a timber ceiling with exposed beams Mr building inspector said it had to be removed ! His boss said we can sort this another way find me a product to fireproof it and all will be ok .
Was a specialist painted fancy ceiling costing thousands but we found a matt clear coating so job done .
 
AlexGas said:
Did anyone mention to you that you need to read the MI?
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I think we all get that one it seems to be the favourite for question setters in all subjects to the point you get sick of answering with I would refer to the manufacturers instructions or operating manual etc !
My point is I do not want to trawl about if someone has a simple answer and says Oh yes we do a couple of those a week with this manufacturer and this flue kit .
At the end of the day I always try to help anyone out as I like to think they will do the same for me one day
 
I don't entirely disagree with you but every boiler has to be installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and the regs in place at the time. As a gsr you know that.

Each boiler is designed and tested to ensure safe operation. To jury rig something to get around the regs is not only foolhardy but downright dangerous.

However, should he get the say so from the manufacturer in writing that they're happy with any modifications then fill your boots.

But make sure you get a copy of said letter attached to your paperwork should gas safe come knocking on your door.
 
croppie said:
I don't entirely disagree with you but every boiler has to be installed in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and the regs in place at the time. As a gsr you know that.

Each boiler is designed and tested to ensure safe operation. To jury rig something to get around the regs is not only foolhardy but downright dangerous.

However, should he get the say so from the manufacturer in writing that they're happy with any modifications then fill your boots.

But make sure you get a copy of said letter attached to your paperwork should gas safe come knocking on your door.
Click to expand...

Yes I would do along with any calcs he has done for the opening that close to a structual opening and attach both to the boiler manufacturers instructions too ao he can wave them in the face of Mr Ooooh I am going to have to report this one .
 
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