does anyone still use copper in a 1st fix downstairs gorund floor

[mark_mc]

Im doing a 1st fix today and was doing in copper with soldered joints the norm would usually use pipe and pipe and manifolds but this was better copper as it was a reovation track floors etc so didnt what to make the tracks massive using pipe in pipe as the house robbed when no one lived in it and the copper was stole.

everyone from the sparks the joiners where over asking copper??$$?? what I havent seen an install in copper in ages. maybe because it was in belfast everyone must use hep, one even said usually any plumber i know uses hep joints under the concrete floor I was like WHAT>>>

so my question is; many copper 1st fixs these days with you guys.

 

[hammers4spanner]

all the time in my own work

 

[lambchop]

Done one recently on a 5 bed mansion new build, custard insisted on copper, got what he wanted. Few of the lads were not happy using a 28mm bender but same principles just slighty more elbow grease

 

[JAH HEATING]

always go with copper, don't trust plastic for some reason ? when I have used it, never had a problem with it but I'm always expecting a fitting to blow off ? Copper for me, anyone can put plastic in

 

[mark_mc]

very true, plastic isnt a skill but its takes a bit off skill to put in neat lol.

I usually use pipe in pipe downstairs but by the time you but manifolds and feet for radiators tails etc its about the same cost as copper.
a copper 1st fix is slower but at least its tried and tested over the years.

do use hep upstairs thru joists as its quick and easy and a good earner.

 

[diamondgas]

Personal ... my past experience regarding air ingress and fittings failing under heat keep me away from plastic!! There's something unnerving about a slipy, moving fitting!!

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

always in copper,simples

 

[tamz]

Most new builds up this way have suspended floors so it is easier and just as quick and much neater to do in copper.

 

[Billy Bob Bob]

Most new builds up this way have suspended floors so it is easier and just as quick and much neater to do in copper.

and when the next generation rip it all out they wont be disappointed to find they have nothing to weigh in ,see what we are like on the ukpf always thinking of our kids LOL

 

[dontknowitall]

Not afraid to use plastic but much prefer copper - seems more professional to me.

Also, I paid thousands to learn how to solder and I'm not going to waste that knowledge on some form of toddler's group tubing ...

 

[lambchop]

Custard had a leak with some small bore plastic, checked it out all ok, delved into a bit of history. He always turns of mains water before he goes on holiday. First time I've come across this, a leak occured when the fitting is not under pressure. It wasn't jg twist & lock system or hep, couldnt identify manufacturer and the pipe was fully inserted, mabe no pipe stiffner, anybody else come across this?

 

[SimonG]

Copper is the weapon of choice but whatever it takes to turn a profit.

 

[tamz]

Custard had a leak with some small bore plastic, checked it out all ok, delved into a bit of history. He always turns of mains water before he goes on holiday. First time I've come across this, a leak occured when the fitting is not under pressure. It wasn't jg twist & lock system or hep, couldnt identify manufacturer and the pipe was fully inserted, mabe no pipe stiffner, anybody else come across this?

It probably leaked when he turned it back on. Don't trust plastics 100%. Any make.

 

[Muse2k8]

Copper and end feeds always. I hate hate hate plastic pipe!

 

[secret squirrel]

I like both,

I do understand why people prefer using copper but plastic does have its uses. I don't agree that anyone can use plastic; yes of course they can but anyone can use copper as well. A cheap diy torch and a couple of bending springs!

The trouble is the best use of plastic is that it can be manipulated twisted and bent in any number of ways on one bit of pipe, the trick is not to use too many joints, these are just too expensive. There was a post a while ago where there were numerous joints all over the place looked horrific, this is where the skill comes in. If you do need a few joints then quickly swap from plastic to copper.

Downside for me is I go home at the end of the job and think did that have an insert? what about that? did the pipe pop all the way in! (or am I thinking of something else there?)

 

[glenno1]

Can relate to last post many times ive took a plastic joint apart and found no insert so im wary when i use it and have on occasions stripped a joint down to make sure ive put an insert in place

 

[Bernie2]

Plastic eek! Copper great. Have even helped with full lead pipe out's as apprentice and done many repairs myself with it. Those where the days!!! I'd sooner forget all that hard work. The shave hook felt like part of your hand.

It was a lot slower pace then and the boss would say "Don't care how long you take make a good job" The modern saying is "When will you be finished" sometimes even before you had started.

 

[markfxy]

Plastics fantastic! only ever use copper on show or multilayer never had a problem with plastic those that have probably haven't pushed the pipe fully into the fitting although they'll never admit it.

 

[Guest123]

Contrary to popular opinion, I'm NOT against plastic! I like to complete an installation knowing that what I have fitted will last for many years and I just can't endorse that with a push fit fitting compared to a soldered or compression fitting. I would never even consider using plastic and push fit in an area that is enclosed like under a floor or in a cavity, but would readily use copper and soldered fittings instead.

Plastic does have it's uses and it is improving all the time. I still remember installing the original Acorn fittings and push fit systems have come a long way since those times. My biggest bug bear with push fit systems is incompatability between different brands and I'd like a standard to be introduced between manufacturers that allows say Speedfit pipe and Hep20 fittings to be used together and most importantly be guaranteed to be suitable with no void of warranty for doing so.

I rarely use plastic on bathrooms unless I have little choice. My preference is for JG Speedfit as mounting and demounting is childs play, but the plastic coils can be difficult to work with so I tend to use straight lengths. I use it during the Summer months for many of the outside tap installations that I do, but my preference for the forseeable future will always be copper.

The biggest problem with push fit installations is incorrect fitting. Too many use it without understanding what is required for a correct and trouble free installation. Used properly with the correct clip spacings, proper inserts and full slip, it is a good system but it also has its limitations. A change of direction usually requires a fitting and these are both ugly and expensive, while copper can be bent on a machine for a nice neat finish. I hope that the next generation of PEX pipe from JG allows for more flexibility and more importantly can be bent on a standard bending machine and retain its shape without having to use those ugly formers.

 

[WaterTight]

So how come, as referred to in the original post, other trades are amazed at seeing copper being used and yet nearly everyone so far in this thread uses copper. Is this forum just an unrepresentative sample of the trade?

 

[Guest123]

So how come, as referred to in the original post, other trades are amazed at seeing copper being used and yet nearly everyone so far in this thread uses copper. Is this forum just an unrepresentative sample of the trade?

Don't think it is mate as most other trades I work with only get to see second fix which in my case is copper. All the diy shows on TV such as diy SOS etc all use copper and there are plenty of other trades there to see it.

 

[tamz]

This is probably an unrepresentative sample because most people on this forum actually have a bit pride in their work. Most don't!

 

[WaterTight]

Maybe it was just a regional thing then. My only personal experience is working on installs for a year with a guy who always did first fix in plastic. But that's a not very informative sample size of 1.

 

[WaterTight]

Yeah I thought about that too. By definition the average plumber won't come on this forum. There wouldn't be enough room! So you get a mix of learners and those who live and breathe it. Those who occupy the vast middle ground of just doing it for a job without caring much about the rights and wrongs probably wouldn't dream of spending their evenings talking about work online.

 

[tamz]

Those who occupy the vast middle ground of just doing it for a job without caring much about the rights and wrongs probably wouldn't dream of spending their evenings talking about work online.

That is true

 

[Guest123]

Yeah I thought about that too. By definition the average plumber won't come on this forum. There wouldn't be enough room! So you get a mix of learners and those who live and breathe it. Those who occupy the vast middle ground of just doing it for a job without caring much about the rights and wrongs probably wouldn't dream of spending their evenings talking about work online.

Plumbing is mainly a solitary occupation and it's good to come on here and share experiences with others.

 

[WaterTight]

Do you not have a love slave? As I believe the PC term has it.

 

[tamz]

Maybe it was just a regional thing then. My only personal experience is working on installs for a year with a guy who always did first fix in plastic. But that's a not very informative sample size of 1.

If you worked on installs with me for a year you wouldn't see more than 20 ft of plastic. I do my job to the best of my ability and want the minimum of comebacks. Comebacks cost ME money so i don't use plastics as plastics DO fail. They cannot be trusted 100% unlike a soldered fitting on copper.
The cost of plastic pipe and fittings is expensive (they cost pennies to make) because the manu's allow for the probably well in the millions ££ they have to allow for damage claims every year. Anyone who has done site work will know the routine. Your ordinary Joe plumber is not the ones making the claims against the manu.

 

[Guest123]

Do you not have a love slave? As I believe the PC term has it.

Sacked for being an ignorant little ersehole. I'm a bloody nightmare to work for anyway as I have to always have things done my way. Wife learned that the hard way.

 

[SimonJohns]

System3, she doesn't like flexi's either. Only rigid?

 

[Guest123]

System3, she doesn't like flexi's either. Only rigid?

If this wasn't the main forum, I'd certainly divulge her thoughts on rigidity.

 

[SimonJohns]

System. If it's anything like my mrs. It involves being 6ft under and stiff.

 

[Guest123]

LOL. I feel a ban coming on for smut talk ......

 

[tamz]

Sacked for being an ignorant little ersehole. I'm a bloody nightmare to work for anyway as I have to always have things done my way. Wife learned that the hard way.

A bit like me then. I must be the worst person in the world to work with. If i'm on my own i even moan at myself :lol:

System3, she doesn't like flexi's either. Only rigid?

She takes it as she finds it. If she needs to work at it then all the better for me @lol:

 

[AWheating]

on new build work i use both copper and plastic. Some situations require plastic as alot of modern joist systems are designed with plastic in mind and it can be harder to install copper to a good standard. All surface pipework must be copper and most of my private work is copper only.

one problem with plastic is it makes diyers think they are plumbers because "anyone can install plastic" is what alot of people think. It does take knowledge and skill to install plastic to a high standard, but yes it can be installed badly by idiots also.