Asbestos Removal

[Veggie Dave]

I have a customer whose landlord has decided that professional asbestos removal is far too expensive so he's going to do it himself.

I am, as you can imagine, trying to explain to the tenants just how dangerous and stupid he's being but they seem to think there's nothing they can do.

I'm about to write a note attached to my invoice explaining why they MUST take action but there's one thing I'm not sure about - is the illegal removal of asbestos a criminal offence and/or does it carry a potential prison sentence? Also, would the tenants also be liable to prosecution if he's caught?

 

[Dotty]

I would certainly inform the local authority straight away!

 

[SimonG]

The landlords a lemon, cant afford not to employ professionals when it comes to this. Don't know the legal stand point, but I would like to think the fine would be a multiple of what it would cost to do the job properly and also time inside.

Obviously not

[DLMURL="http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2013/rnn-wm-17511.htm"]Birmingham builders fined for illegal asbestos removal[/DLMURL]

 

[SimonG]

Asbestos and the law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SimonG]

[DLMURL="http://www.arca.org.uk/ARCA-article.asp?ArticleID=328"]Birmingham builder fined for illegal asbestos removal - ARCA News[/DLMURL]

 

[SimonG]

Asbestos frequently asked questions

 

[gasmanrob]

The simple fact he won't be able to provide a clean air certificate is enough for a court hearing.

a BG engineer removed something asbestos years ago I'm not sure what but the crux of it was that house and the others he visited that day all had to have clean air cleaning and certificates whilst his van was sealed and disposed of with all it's contents.

That's how serious they took it

 

[Anton]

The tenants would in no way be liable to prosecution.
The Landlord would be at risk of a massive fine plus decontamination costs for the property.
Plus alternative residence costs for the tenants, replacement furnishings and all the rest.
I'd phone Environmental Health pretending to be one of the tenants (dial 141 first) but say you would rather not give your name, because the Landlord's not a nice person. tell them what he is planning to do and leave it to them.

 

[kris]

Hi there veggie. You should tell the landlord that when it comes to material such as asbestos theres only one way of removing and discarding and that is the right way. Its simply not a fibre to be messed with .

 

[kirkgas]

A whole multi-story up here was decanted for days a few weeks ago when a worker dislodged a panel that they thought might have been asbestos, this landlord is beyond arrogant, it's criminal neglect,

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

Why risk it, it simply is not worth it. I would not want to live in that house if he removed it as how will I know he has done it properly and not dropped it on the carpet or something as I certainly wouldnt be watching it. I would seriously consider ring the non emergency police as this is dangerous

 

[Millsy 82]

The fines are massive for asbestos even if you disturb asbestos unwillingly HSE will not take it lightly that he has been told there is asbestos and that he is removing it them selves. For an employee we got told it could be a fine of up to 15K and companies unlimited so he would be daft to do it.

 

[Ermintrude]

Just call the HSE and environmental health . Proper twonk

 

[rowdy]

Asbestos laws and regulations don't apply to domestic properties, however, as the landlord is deriving an income from the property he is skating on thin ice going down this path. Perhaps contact the Citizens Advice Bureau in the first instance.

 

[Ermintrude]

Hate to burst your bubble it's a work place. Not sure call the HSE. CDM regulations still apply here.......

 

[snowhead]

From here;
Landlord Guide To Asbestos In Properties | Risk Of Asbestos In Property

For all residential premises, whether houses or flats, a landlord may, depending on the circumstances, be liable if anyone such as a tenant resident or visitor, is put at risk of being exposed to asbestos or is actually exposed to it. The landlord is under a duty to ensure that a risk assessment is carried out and can be prosecuted for failing to do so. Also a landlord can be guilty of a criminal offence if anyone is exposed to a risk from asbestos.

 

[Neil K]

He is putting his health and more importantly, his tenants health at risk. RIDDOR reportable.

 

[PhoenixServices]

Do as the ermie says. It could save someone's life in the long run.

On a side note my local tip take asbestos if it is double bagged. I find this crazy it just invites the diyer to try and save some money.

 

[Ermintrude]

Asbestos is fine in some one else's lungs!

 

[Veggie Dave]

I can't believe how pathetic the fines are! They're less than half the amount the tenants have been quoted to have the asbestos removed by a professional company!

Tomorrow I'm off to see the tenants again specifically to try and sort this ridiculous situation out before I'm forced to inform HSE.

 

[kirkgas]

And when the landlord says he will be removing it himself he will actually get the handyman to do it, so he isn't even risking himself

 

[DaveTidy]

I was on BG at the time and I remember the feedback we got was that the cleanup job from the asbestos problem was £65k. All soft furnishings etc were replaced, floorboards lifted and hoovered with an 'H' type vac etc.


If the landlord gets it done without a clean air then I'd certainly drop him with the HSE and also let each tenant know the no win no fee line I've seen advertised for potential asbestos exposure.

Be interesting to see if the landlord thinks he's saving money when they've all finished with him.

[DLMURL="http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2010/coi-sw-ww681.htm"]Here's a bit about a landlord getting fined[/DLMURL]

There's always a clause somewhere if you're a landlord!

 

[Dotty]

Asbestos laws and regulations don't apply to domestic properties, however, as the landlord is deriving an income from the property he is skating on thin ice going down this path. Perhaps contact the Citizens Advice Bureau in the first instance.

Oh yes they do!

From the HSE website.....

[h=2]Members of the public[/h] [h=3]What is the law concerning asbestos in domestic properties?[/h] The general duties in Section 3(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSW Act) apply to protect householders from any risks from work activities being carried out in their homes. Where work being done involves asbestos-containing materials then the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 will also apply, in particular:

• regulation 11 (Prevention or reduction of exposure to asbestos);
• regulation 15 (Arrangements to deal with accidents, incidents and emergencies); and
• regulation 16 (Duty to prevent or reduce the spread of asbestos.

In owner-occupied domestic properties, the owners are not legally responsible for risks to contractors from asbestos, as the owners themselves are not engaged in any work activity.

 

[rowdy]

Oh yes they do!

From the HSE website.....

Members of the public

What is the law concerning asbestos in domestic properties?

The general duties in Section 3(1) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSW Act) apply to protect householders from any risks from work activities being carried out in their homes. Where work being done involves asbestos-containing materials then the Control of Asbestos Regulations 2012 will also apply, in particular:

• regulation 11 (Prevention or reduction of exposure to asbestos);
• regulation 15 (Arrangements to deal with accidents, incidents and emergencies); and
• regulation 16 (Duty to prevent or reduce the spread of asbestos.

In owner-occupied domestic properties, the owners are not legally responsible for risks to contractors from asbestos, as the owners themselves are not engaged in any work activity.

Perhaps I should clarify....

If you own a domestic property and you are undertaking work on that property, it is not classed as a workplace and you are not classed as an employee, hence the above regulations do not apply. If it were then the UK would be in a sorry state as every homeowner would have to undertake asbestos surveys on their houses, be accountable to the HSE, etc. etc.
However, as the property is a business and the removal may affect a tenant, your customer may have recourse under other more general regulations such as the EPA, hence the landlord is skating on thin ice and hence, your customer should contact someone with legal expertise for advice.
Of significant relevance here is the extent and form of asbestos which hasn't been mentioned yet. Perhaps you could clarify this point.

 

[Ermintrude]

Read the construction design management regulations. Any work be it paid or not in your home or someone else's you have to abide by these. Also these regs link into HSAWR and all others. Legislation very open these days. Bit like getting prosecuted for asbestos exposure when a twonk nicks a dirty decon trailer - you get prosecuted for it not being secure aswell.

 

[rowdy]

Not quite correct.

HSE website quote...

"If you are having construction work done on your own home, or on the home of a family member, as a domestic client you do not have to notify the work to HSE and you will not have duties under CDM 2007 - although those doing the work on your behalf (such as designers or contractors) will.

If you are having construction work done as part of a trade or business, for example as a landlord or a developer, it may be notifiable and you will also have other duties as a client under CDM 2007."

 

[Dotty]

You're contradicting your own argument pal.

 

[Ermintrude]

CDM regs revised a lot since 2007. It's not notifiable but regs still apply. I don't know or understand these regs it was only my job for Oooh nearly 10 years

 

[Centralheatking]

This is most probably a sort of question that should be moderated by
Croppy etc because the answer is almost as wicked as us giving advice
about gas fitting to a newbie

Anyway - 2/3 sorts of asbestos

BLUE - Rare nowadays but very very bad
WHITE - mostly ok and just use loads of water to keep
the dust down while you cut it
Asbestalux - cement based material for fake slates etc

Most of the above can if its booked in with your local re-cycling
place and put in sealed bags is good to go

Otherwise we just chuck it out of the back of our vans
northbound on M6 every Friday afternoon ! on our way home

centralheatking

I am, as you can imagine, trying to explain to the tenants just how dangerous and stupid he's being but they seem to think there's nothing they can do.

I'm about to write a note attached to my invoice explaining why they MUST take action but there's one thing I'm not sure about - is the illegal removal of asbestos a criminal offence and/or does it carry a potential prison sentence? Also, would the tenants also be liable to prosecution if he's caught?[/QUOTE]

 

[Ermintrude]

Tenants would be not prosecuted unless they knew it was dangerous and assisted in the contravention of the regulations. Cooperate manslaughter gonna be used to catch a lot of companies out shortly. Don't give out legal advise as the HSE use many permutations to get best results. Just say he will be liable to prosecution, unlimited fines and a prison sentence - all of which are at the disposal of HSE.

 

[Centralheatking]

So your back garden is ok for us then - at least you can get rid of it properly CHK

Tenants would be not prosecuted unless they knew it was dangerous and assisted in the contravention of the regulations. Cooperate manslaughter gonna be used to catch a lot of companies out shortly. Don't give out legal advise as the HSE use many permutations to get best results. Just say he will be liable to prosecution, unlimited fines and a prison sentence - all of which are at the disposal of HSE.