advice would be most appreciated!

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pete23

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Hi Guys, apologies for probably sounding clueless and all that but would really appreciate some advice before I take on my first tap replacement. I am currently training for my C&G 6129 and am attempting to get out there and gain a bit of "Hands on" experience. I have been asked by a friend if I could replace their kitchen tap. They have purchased a "Bristan Echo Sink mixer" ?? I have been over to size the job up and all looks FAIRLY good. (Appreciate these are the words of death). The current taps are very similar, both have the copper connectors that are "Tapered" (I would say from 15mm to 10mm). My problem is that I don't really trust my soldering skills enough to do it the professional way so am interested to know if it would be acceptable to use the flexi connectors? Reading other posts, I am lead to believe most of you guys don't really like these, especially the push-fit ones. However, I would be inclined to go for compression (feels and looks stronger). Firstly, is this allowed? Secondly, would they reduce the working mechanism of the mixer tap?

My plan was to cut the pipe back from the existing connectors,(once isolated water supply), remove old tap, replace with new, with flexi connectors tightened (Hand tight?), Secure with fixing rod and nut and then connect to pipes. Isolation valves are already in situ further along the pipe so plenty of pipe to use. Am I right in thinking the compression fittings will need olives?

Many thanks in advance for any help as I attempt to breach the big wide world of plumbing! :confused:
 
1. We all had to start somewhere so no need to apologise - when I started I kept saying sorry everytime I asked something and in the end was told not to keep doing this.

2. Use whichever method you're most comfortable with and next time you're in a training session, ask them. They're being paid to teach you things like this.

3. Generally, it's best to use whatever comes with the tap and the connections need to be a little tighter than hand tight (but not over tightened.) If these taps have copper connectors then use (in order of preference) soldered fittings, compression or push fit. If there is no isolation valve then it's always a good idea to fit isolation valves to the bottom of the tail pipes so if the tap is faulty (or the customer wants to change their mind after a year or two) it's an easy change. (You can use isolation valves as a compression fitting.)

If the tap connectors are flexible lines then I use a compression nut to fit these to a small piece of copper pipe and then fit an isolation valve. Others fit them directly to an isolation valve.

Take your time to make the job neat and good luck with it!!
 
Many thanks for your rapid response to my problems, and thanks for understanding the newbee. I have just bought my own blowtorch to practice my soldering as want to do things the correct way so feel practice will make perfect!? Hopefully! As for the current job I will prob use the flexis. Isolation valves are further along the pipe so would be hoping to fit the connectors to the pipe, then pipe will go to isolation valve. Am guessing the compression nut you talk of will come supplied with the flexi connector? Any other "Bits" I would need??

Thanks once again!
 
Other bits ... some ptfe tape if it doesn't work first time.

Some of us use a compound as well - there's a thread on these if you want to find what we all use as we have our favourites.

Decent wrench and pump pliers. You'll be fed up with cheap ones after a week or so. Tape measure, pencil, spirit level, screwdrivers, towels ... there are a few threads on these as well.

Oh - and a van to keep the clobber.
 
Thanks guys for your advice, just one thing, if the flexi connectors don't reach fully to the actual 15mm copper pipe that is in situ, would the compression fitting of the flexi fit on to the thickest part of the original copper tails from the old tap? Say if I was to slice the widest part of the tapered end before it goes into the existing elbow? Then connect the above mentioned product up to the tap? (Obviously connecting the tap end first).

Thanks once again, you have definitely made me feel more confident.
 
The old tap tails, if done correctly, should have compression fittings on them. If not just cut the pipes no lower than 250 from the sink top. That will give you 2" or so to play with. You can always cut them again if you like but if you cut them too short you will need to extend them.
Don't use additional flexis or it will look like a dog pyshin in the snow.
 
but word of warning as i first found out,, if you ever decide to cut the supplied tap tails the 15mm-10mm ones you were talking about do it slowly with a manual cutter not a pipe slice as these will quite often bend out of shape with it being really soft
 
Belt and braces make sure you have got a couple of isolating valves to spare as the ones that you use to isolate are bound to leak from the stem once you operate them
 
A dog pyshin in the snow!? Doesn't sound like the sort of workmanship I want to be associated with. The current tails screw in to the tap one end and then are soldered into an elbow, then runs straight to the isolation valve which is a good distance along (400mm)? The new tap connectors are approx 250mm so I am thinking I may either need to slice the pipe between elbow and isolation valve, or before the elbow, thus attaching the flexi on to the widest part of the existing tail, before it goes in to the elbow. All depending on what length I have to play with (no jokes please)! Wouldn't ever use more than one flexi joined to another!

I looked on screwfix as you suggested, they state it should be used with check valve??? Also, would you suggest needing to use any compounds or plumber's mait to secure tap to sink? I've never really understood whether you should use anything more than the washers and backnuts they supply with any kind of taps, kitchen,basin or bath?

Many thanks once again for all the help and advice!
 
tamz said:
A junior hacksaw is better
Click to expand...
I beg to differ.Everyone has their own preferances i know but I once had a tap tail that was so soft i bent it using a juniour hacksaw from the pressure of the blade, a manual cutter, small turns, slow and steady wins the race :)
 
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pete23 said:
A dog pyshin in the snow!? Doesn't sound like the sort of workmanship I want to be associated with. The current tails screw in to the tap one end and then are soldered into an elbow, then runs straight to the isolation valve which is a good distance along (400mm)? The new tap connectors are approx 250mm so I am thinking I may either need to slice the pipe between elbow and isolation valve, or before the elbow, thus attaching the flexi on to the widest part of the existing tail, before it goes in to the elbow. All depending on what length I have to play with (no jokes please)! Wouldn't ever use more than one flexi joined to another!

I looked on screwfix as you suggested, they state it should be used with check valve??? Also, would you suggest needing to use any compounds or plumber's mait to secure tap to sink? I've never really understood whether you should use anything more than the washers and backnuts they supply with any kind of taps, kitchen,basin or bath?

Many thanks once again for all the help and advice!
Click to expand...

It won't look good if you have copper pipe, flexi then copper pipe.

So in this case you need to alter things accordingly and use your new found soldering skills!!

Re-attaching tap to sink, just follow the instructions. If you don't and a warranty claim needs to be made if they find anything not according to instructions they won't pay (this applies to boilers and all sorts).

And manufacturer's are usually happy to answer queries.
 
quality said:
Imperial Eastman models TC-1000, TC-1010, TC-1020, 312-FC, 227-FA Imperial HI-DUTY TUBE CUTTERS Mfg by Stride Tool Inc.

far better than any hacksaw
Click to expand...

When did they start making them?;)

herbert said:
I beg to differ.Everyone has their own preferances i know but I once had a tap tail that was so soft i bent it using a juniour hacksaw from the pressure of the blade, a manual cutter, small turns, slow and steady wins the race :)
Click to expand...

Everyone to their own. Tap tails are all soft. Learn to work your junior better and use a decent blade.
 
dontknowitall said:
Re-attaching tap to sink, just follow the instructions. If you don't and a warranty claim needs to be made if they find anything not according to instructions they won't pay (this applies to boilers and all sorts).

And manufacturer's are usually happy to answer queries.
Click to expand...
a very good post. never a wiser word said.. thats one of the first things i learnt.
 
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Sorry, think I have given the wrong impression. Wasn't going to use copper-flexi-copper. I was just thinking that if the flexi doesn't reach to the actual copper pipe for connection then would I be able to run flexi from the tap, down and connect to the wide part of the existing tail. Almost like treating the wide part of the tail as a normal piece of 15mm copper pipe? Apologies if I'm not being clear, just not quite up to speed with the lingo and thought process of you pro's. Hopefully one day!?

In general would you use any compounds or silicone to make good with taps?

Thanks once again though!
 
What fittings have you got that fit into the tap? Copper tails (usually 10mm increasing to 15mm) or flexible tap connectors (usually 300mm lengths of hose)?

Generally no need to use compounds on the taps as they have washers to do this for you. The compounds I was talking about are used in compression fittings.
 
Could you not get a plumber to guide you to change a tap as I am sure with various posts it can seem quite daunting if you are not sure how to do it
 
I haven't bought any connectors/tails yet. I wanted to ask for advice first. All I have is the new tap which comes with the copper tail pipes which as I said are tapered. approx 10mm going in to approx 15mm. Due to the soldering insecurities I was hoping to buy some flexi tails/connectors from merchants tomorrow, then fix thursday. Am just trying to predict the worse case scenario and if the flexi doesn't reach the 15mm pipe in situ, then I may need to use the compression fitting from the flexi to attach to the existing tail pipe if I sliced that tail about an inch above the elbow?

Apologies once again for my lack of painting a clear picture...never was any good at art!

Thanks guys.
 
Ah! I see now.

Refering to an earlier post, if you choose to use flexi's and the tap fails in it's warranty period, the manufacturer's won't pay because they'll claim it was only designed to be used with their supplied copper tails.

It's your choice though but I think you might be creating more problems by using the flexi's.


PS
Your best bet is to alter the house pipework to fit the new tap pipework.
 
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dontknowitall said:
Refering to an earlier post, if you choose to use flexi's and the tap fails in it's warranty period, the manufacturer's won't pay because they'll claim it was only designed to be used with their supplied copper tails.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.
 
That's true. Amazing, ain't it. A simple question and now we're on to 24 responses and comments! It's no wonder that plumbing takes so long!!
 
Am finding this all very helpful and am very thankful for people giving me time and help. Just want to learn as much as possible! Before I completely bore you all, would I be able to just cut the existing elbow out, use the proper copper tails supplied, then use a compression elbow to join tail to existing copper pipe? Would this restrict flow/pressure? Would it look any better?

Thanks again.
 
Your tails may be short if you do that.
If you want to use the supplied copper tails cut the old tap tails 1" above the elbows, fit the new taps, bend them to position, trim them to suit and join them back with 2 compression unions.

Decisions decisions:D

There is more than one way to skin a rabbit;)
 
Ok ill have my say ! Take the copper tails you have with tap and replace with flexiys, either 10 or 12 mm to 15 mm compression end. A couple of raps of ptfe round thread then screw into your tap, then nip up with a thin spanner. Attach tap to sink and tighten tap nut with a monument tap box spanner.You will now have plenty of play and not need to worry about hacksawing and cutting tap tails. Then do whats needed to connect onto your pipework, compression or soldering, whichever you feel your comfy with. But dont solder pipe to close to flexys, disconnect them off your pipework first. After you have fitted a few then maybe you could use the copper tails if supplied. Regarding warranty claims i wouldn't worry as bristan will send you any faulty parts direct. I install alot of Bristan gear.
 
mate, you wanna get better at soldering? have a blast at doing the tap tails in copper.. fit and solder it all up and it if all goes wrong you only have a small amount of water to contend with as you can turn it straight off with the isolator.ok if it fails you will have to remove the tap again which can be a little awquard then do it with ya flexi's. You know you want to do it with copper :) just keep it neat
 
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Done well buddy! Im doing the course too, im probably learning more on praticals than all the stuff in books! Ive done a radiator move and fixed a few taps that were dripping.....on the soldering you be suprised how little solder u actually need to make a firm fix....none of this lashing the stuff on....best ov luck m8 :)
 
some of the cheaper taps with coppertails cant realy be cut as they are as thin as paper and have a rolled in end to stiffen them once thats gone they just fold up
always best to buy a pair of flexis that screw direct into the tap body theres two sizes so take one of the originals to the merchants with you
 
Well thanks very much guys. So much to now contemplate!?! I went to the merchants today, guy instantly suggested push-fit flexi connectors. When I asked him if there were any other ways he looked at me a little strange and asked why? When I said I wanted to make a good job and make it look good his reply was "Why? You're not gonna see it are you?" After politely laughing and then asking him about any compression fittings he pointed me in the direction of either push-fit couplers or (brass) compression couplers. I have now bought a couple of the proper compression couplers and intend to cut the original tails about an inch from the existing elbow and attach the coupler. Then use the actual copper tails supplied to connect to the tap. Hopefully, fingers, toes and legs crossed. Think it should work? Am planning on attempting it thursday evening so hopefully wont be swimming by the night!

Thanks once again for so much help and advice.
 
There is too much "Can't see it from my house" attitude nowadays. Always take pride in what you do.
 
Give him a break he works at a merchants / wholesale outlet he has never seen a flood

Simple job you will manage no problem but post some pics when your done
 
royston said:
Ok ill have my say ! Take the copper tails you have with tap and replace with flexiys, either 10 or 12 mm to 15 mm compression end. A couple of raps of ptfe round thread then screw into your tap, then nip up with a thin spanner.
Click to expand...

DO not follow this advice it is eroneous. Under no circumstances should ptfe be used on the threads of compression fittings. This really gets my goat . . .


Plus there is nothing wong with pushfit, apart from the price! Double check you have the right size connectors though it is easy to get it wrong (I always seem to have the wrong damn size when I need it!)
Make sure you have a monoblock spanner - it will take you 5 hours plus if you don't.

Good luck mate - it is easy to come unstuck on your first tap!
 
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If you read the reply properly avaarse you will read that i said the thread that screws into the TAP, NOT the compression fitting. People who dont read threads properly get my goat. Eroneous who the hell do you think you are !!!!

Read threads properly before trying to be clever.
 
Id agree with above,

replace copper tails with bought ones from screkficks
towels
mono tap back nut spanners (mini box spanners set) tooistanton wouldnt be without them
spanner and grips
15mm pipe slice

and you'll definitely need something you didn't get.
 
Job Done!......Well no phone calls of complaint yet! As I'm sure you guys all know too well. Never went to plan. Went with intentions of using the compression couplers, however, once I had measured the pipe and cut, my plan failed due to the original tail being slightly bent through the 15mm part. Thus meaning it would not square up to fit "water-tight" with the new copper tail. As I don't have a pipe bender ( as above post said, I will need something I haven't got), and didn't want to "force" the tail, I resorted to using the flexi's. Didn't opt for push-fit but used compression. Connected up and tested...well ran the taps for a minute or two, no leaks, customer happy so job done I guess!? Still feel like I've let the hardened plumber circle of expertise down.....but after all, I still have SO Much to learn. However, feels good, just hope the phone doesn't ring with screams of help. How long do I have to wait before I can relax!?

Just want to thank Everyone who gave me time to post advice and give me the confidence to get up and do it! Also feel like I can ask in future for more guidence........Apologies if you guys get sick of me!

Cheers!
 
Well done and I hope you're chuffed.

Hope all your other jobs go reasonably well. Not wishing to put you off at all, but I found I'd get better and better then have a really awful job and feel my knowledge was being tested too much. Then pick up confidence over next few jobs until I tripped up again.

It DOES improve though as you get more experience.

First one done - next round the corner!

And thanks for the feedback - it's what keeps us helping. I've given up on a few posters as they never say how they got on or never say thank you. This is why you had lots of help from many posters. Time to stop being patronising and I must get some zzzz's in.
 
Ift its any help just before i started my apprentership i fitted a new mixer tap for my dad, took me 3 hours, with push fit, and still ended up get the hot and cold wrong way round.

you'll be laughing in 12 months.

you stop worrying once you've had a few leaks and realise they're easily fixed.
 
royston said:
If you read the reply properly avaarse you will read that i said the thread that screws into the TAP, NOT the compression fitting.
Click to expand...

Well that is even worse in my book, using PTFE on a tap connector. Have you ever heard of a washer? I am not being clever, I am just trying to tell people the correct way to do something.

If you use PTFE on the thread of anything other than rad tails/steel fittings and the like - which the manufacturers instruct you too, you are creating a leak waiting to happen . . . .
 
Avatar said:
Well that is even worse in my book, using PTFE on a tap connector. Have you ever heard of a washer? I am not being clever, I am just trying to tell people the correct way to do something.

If you use PTFE on the thread of anything other than rad tails/steel fittings and the like - which the manufacturers instruct you too, you are creating a leak waiting to happen . . . .
Click to expand...

You may think that your way is best but i disagree, being a plumber for 20 yrs i think i can be clever. Do you know what im talking about ? Have you fitted many mono-block mixer taps ?? If not ill tell you that they dont have TAP CONNECTORS on them they are supplied with TAILS. And these tails screw INTO the tap. Now you wrap a few wraps of tape around the threads and screw them INTO the tap. Been doing it that way for 20 yrs and no problems, this is GOOD advice. Now a TAP CONNECTOR has a FIBRE washer on the end, which are rubbish in my opinion, and they SCREW ONTO a tap NOT into a tap. I believe the OP has a mono mixer tap. Done !!
 
Btw.
If you are stuck with no washer for a tap adaptor you can wind a shoulder with ptfe. It won't leak.
 
Believe me it will last if you do it right. I have stripped some out that have been like that 30+ years with no problem.
A washer is always the way to do it but there are times when you don't have any. You could sit for 10 minutes and make up a hemp shangie if it makes you feel better
 
Fibre washers are crap, ive been to loads of leaking tap connectors and ball valves with leaking fibre washers that have disintegrated.
 
i wouldnt put ptfe on the tails where they screw into th tap body the o rings they come with have never let me down and i think the tape could interfere with the way they are made to work but hey what ever works for you
39 years a plumber lol
as for tap cons we used to make grommets from hemp for every one but fibre washer or tape is good
 
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I dont use ptfe on any fitting that doesn't require it - like the monobloc tap threads that have a O RING seal on them . . .

Jesus!

I don't know what your problem is mate - what ever it is dont start a fight about it ok.
 
My problem is people on this site thinking they are so high and mighty and their advice is law. Making out that wrapping a bit of PTFE around a tap tail thread is some terrible wrong thing do do that will cause injury and harm to someone !!
 
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