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Discuss Supper Insulation ?? in the Renewable Energy area at PlumbersForums.net

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I went to see my mate at the weekend he is involved in converting an old barn & they where using this insulation stuff, it consisted of multiple layers of foil, fibre & foam. Not sure what it is called but I guess fully expanded it was around 60mm thick but the claim is that it replaces 140mm (2x 70mm) of Celotex.
Is this true??
 
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ShaunCorbs

Staff member
S. Mod
Plumber
Gas Engineer
Space blanket super efficient
 
W

Welder

On a purely personal note I'd not touch it. I'd always fit a physical barrier like Celotex or Kingspan as it can be made to fit properly leaving no gaps. I just cannot see how this stuff can be installed in the same way as fixing it compresses if from 60mm to 3 or whatever.
 

king of pipes

Esteemed
Plumber
Gas Engineer
Has its uses but very expensive the building company I work for use it in their extensions projects above joists on glass fibre decked flat roofs , tears easy and does not like a heat source near it. Cheers kop
 
OP
C

chris watkins

Plumber
On a purely personal note I'd not touch it. I'd always fit a physical barrier like Celotex or Kingspan as it can be made to fit properly leaving no gaps. I just cannot see how this stuff can be installed in the same way as fixing it compresses if from 60mm to 3 or whatever.
I think it was the fact that it was easier to fit into the very uneven spaces between the wooden frame that it was chosen Dave but take your point about compression. They cut it larger than the required width & then folded the cut side out so the uncut edge was fixed tight against the uprights on each side, if that make sense. The builder is a good'n but just wondered, thanks for the feed back.
So it seems to be a form of space blanket (which I have never seen from the inside & had forgotten about) thanks Shaun, but just a heaver weight version, I don't think this would tear easy & I didn't get me lamp out KOP. :)
Thanks again
 
S

Sharp Point

Ahhh, tri-iso10. I read a case study years ago and in a nutshell... not as good as it seems.
 

gingalig

Gas Engineer
Tri iso, is great for barn conversion/renovation work. It helps achieve the required heat loss calculations, especially in roofing. Usually need something else as well like a cellotex or glass fibre/rockwool. I don't think It would cut the mustard on its own in terms of regs.
 
I used fibre glass / mineral wool sealed into large dustbin bin bags and pushed into place around the hot water cylinder in several layers. Used this in my house for 30 years. Works well and will keep a tank of hot water plenty warm enough for a couple of showers over two days, without having to reheat the water. But normally the boiler is timed to heat the water daily for an hour at 7 am, so plenty of hot water for morning showers / use throughout the day. Looking at gas bills in the summer it seems to cost about £3 a month for hot water and a gas hob..
 
I think it was the fact that it was easier to fit into the very uneven spaces between the wooden frame that it was chosen Dave but take your point about compression. They cut it larger than the required width & then folded the cut side out so the uncut edge was fixed tight against the uprights on each side, if that make sense. The builder is a good'n but just wondered, thanks for the feed back.
So it seems to be a form of space blanket (which I have never seen from the inside & had forgotten about) thanks Shaun, but just a heaver weight version, I don't think this would tear easy & I didn't get me lamp out KOP. :)
Thanks again
I know this is a old thread but a builder I worked for used this a a group of single brick barn conversions which they studded out then stapled this to studs then counter battened it was a nightmare for them to cut or drill through the one day when they were on one of the last buildings I passed one of them the hep plastic packaging cutter to one of them it cut like a dream they were gutted!
 

Ben-gee

Esteemed
Plumber
I think to achieve the claims of this product in the real world is highly unlikely.

It relies on excellent workmanship..
 
OP
C

chris watkins

Plumber
Fortunately for my mate the builder is actually very good all the bits I have seen have been installed to a high standard & it was under strict approval for the walls as the barn is listed.
As it happens 'gingalig' they used cellotex on the roof as an overlay then tiled on top so the full beams are on show inside.
 

markfxy

Plumber
that stuff is a bugger to drill through it wraps round your drill bit and you can't get the dam thing:confused: out it is very efficient though
 

Ric2013

Plumber
So how do you joint it properly? You'd have to unpeel and stick each layer separately otherwise you're creating a cold bridge at each joint and you may as well just use newspaper. Otherwise I suppose it works.

One comment I would make is that the claim is often made about certain types of reflective insulation that they work in spacesuits. Well, of course they do. No atmosphere = no convection. No planet to stand on = no conduction. So heat is only transferred by radiation and conduction. Foil lined bubblewrap would work well in a spacesuit as it would only lose a little heat through the silvery surface. Back on earth, it is reasonably useless.

I'm totally not saying your stuff is the same as foil lined bubblewrap and, in fact, I have toyed with using it to refurbish my own extension, but I never got my head around how to maintain the thermal envelope at junctions as this would have been important and difficult in this kind of retrofit situation. Let us know how you got on. I for one am interested in how you get around difficulties.
 
So how do you joint it properly? You'd have to unpeel and stick each layer separately otherwise you're creating a cold bridge at each joint and you may as well just use newspaper.
MIs say to overlap the joins.

No atmosphere = no convection. No planet to stand on = no conduction. [.] Back on earth, it is reasonably useless.
Convective transfer between the foils is suppressed by the spacer. Transfer by conduction is negligible, the thermal conductivity of stationary air is negligible.

The thermal performance when correctly installed is excellent. The problem is that it's difficult to install correctly outside a laboratory.

The sample I played with a few years ago was also flamable to the point being downright scary. Modern stuff may be better. I certainly hope so.
 

Ric2013

Plumber
MIs say to overlap the joins.
So at each joint you have a piece of foil on the warm side in contact with a piece of foil on the cold side? Makes no sense.

Convective transfer between the foils is suppressed by the spacer. Transfer by conduction is negligible, the thermal conductivity of stationary air is negligible.
But you still have convective transfer on the outside surface of the insulative layer.

I hope you don't think I am having a dig at the OP's product. I was merely reflecting on the properties of multi-foil insulation, including the cheaper foiled bubblewrap type, and the difference between their performance in outer space and on planet earth. I knew someone who was convinced the bubblewrap kind that her landlord had fitted was 'brilliant as it works on spacesuits' and 'the best insulation ever' when my own experience was that it was very poor. Plus her house was always cold.
 
I used to find fitting PIR to be a real chew, then I bought one of these. Its an over priced carginv knife but it makes the job so quick/easy it pays for itself in one or two jobs.

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So at each joint you have a piece of foil on the warm side in contact with a piece of foil on the cold side? Makes no sense.
The metal foil is extremely thin so the in-plane conductance is negligible.

But you still have convective transfer on the outside surface of the insulative layer.
The outer surface is at the same temperature as the 'external' air, hence no convection, because there is neglible heat transfer across the gap between the foils. (If you have a good conductor in series with a bad conductor the combination is a bad conductor.)

The theory underlying this stuff (physics) is sound but it takes more than that to make it a good choice in practical applications.
 
The metal foil is extremely thin so the in-plane conductance is negligible.



The outer surface is at the same temperature as the 'external' air, hence no convection, because there is neglible heat transfer across the gap between the foils. (If you have a good conductor in series with a bad conductor the combination is a bad conductor.)

The theory underlying this stuff (physics) is sound but it takes more than that to make it a good choice in practical applications.
The fibre insulation between the two foil sheets relies on air to act as an insulator. As soon as you compress it you’ve massively reduced the U value of the material.
 

Ben-gee

Esteemed
Plumber
This is my issue with it too. When you staple it to the timber frame it is compressed to almost nothing and hence no good.

However the alternative of celotex between timbers also has this property at the timber...
 

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