Reports of fumes

[dave1]

I rang gas safe today to find out where I stand, if someone reports possible co poisoning to you now I thought you had to have a new qualification to check it out.
I rang gas safe and the guy said yes you do if your doing an investigation but obviously your ccn1 and appliances make you competent to check appliances are safe and therefor not causing co....

Now I'm slightly confused, when do you need this new qual? And has anyone any literature on this? Ie: tech bulletin?

 

[lame plumber]

issue being is it safe to go in in the first place. cpa1 doesnt qualify you to carry out environmental assessment with fga, but reading your manual will tell you how to!!!!!!!!! ie probe in room 1m off floor carrying out sampling over set period with sequential readouts printed off having calibrated fga in clear air first. you have to be happy to go in and find issue in first place. catch 22 that gsr bods havent really sorted out except to say we can be called out to problem!! However, if they are all laid out on floor and notr moving theres a problem beyond our expertise, best advice open all the doors and call someone in a uniform

 

[Reg Man]

BS7967 part1 Is the guidance for dealing with this event. So that does not help unless you know what this document requires. If the customer has reported feeling unwell because of the report of fumes, then this should be reported to the HSE and the system shut down; awaiting a full investigation by the experts.

 

[lame plumber]

which experts?

 

[Reg Man]

CO incident investigators?

 

[Reg Man]

The gas supplier has a duty to investigate any report of fumes where there has been a report of ill health resulting from the report of fumes, relating to their supply.

 

[AWheating]

issue being is it safe to go in in the first place. cpa1 doesnt qualify you to carry out environmental assessment with fga, but reading your manual will tell you how to!!!!!!!!! ie probe in room 1m off floor carrying out sampling over set period with sequential readouts printed off having calibrated fga in clear air first. you have to be happy to go in and find issue in first place. catch 22 that gsr bods havent really sorted out except to say we can be called out to problem!! However, if they are all laid out on floor and notr moving theres a problem beyond our expertise, best advice open all the doors and call someone in a uniform

im sure its 2m off the floor as co is lighter than air.

 

[Dotty]

I've always had 2m in my mind in regard to this.

 

[AWheating]

The gas supplier has a duty to investigate any report of fumes where there has been a report of ill health resulting from the report of fumes, relating to their supply.

the gas transporter has to attend and make safe. They normally will make safe and issue a Concern for safety label/ticket. They will not ivestigate other than what is needed to make the installation safe.

the home owner would have to contact a qualified person to investigate from my understanding.

if a death or near death has happend then the hse may be involved as it will become a police investigation scene and careful and proper records will be needed.

 

[AWheating]

i am also sure that most grid engineers that make safe dont carry the equipment like analysers still??

 

[Dotty]

Set your fga for an ambient room test, have it ready, hold your breath, run in, set it up and run out, then run in and get it, holding your breath of course, after the test period of 15 minutes.

 

[AWheating]

or send in the apprentice with a rope around his waist?

 

[Dotty]

Rope???? ROPE??????

It might snag and get damaged! Then you'd have no rope!

 

[lame plumber]

hang the apprentice 2m off the floor and give him a drain hose to breathe thro

 

[AMGasServices]

National grid engineers in west yorkshire are testing a gas seeker that also does co/co2. So they will be equipt for fumes.

 

[AlexGas]

I've always had 2m in my mind in regard to this.

Spot on!

From current BS 7967-2:2005
Carbon monoxide in dwellings and the combustion performance of gas-fired appliances —
Part 2: Guide for using electronic portable combustion gas analysers in the measurement of carbon monoxide and the determination of combustion performance

5 Determination of ambient levels of CO and CO2 in dwellings

5.3 Preparation for testing
...Position an open ended sampling probe approximately 2 m above floor level in the centre of the room and at least 1 m away from any suspect appliance installation.

 

[Dotty]

2m up and 1m away, knew I'd seen it somewhere. Cheers Alex

 

[Reg Man]

the gas transporter has to attend and make safe. They normally will make safe and issue a Concern for safety label/ticket. They will not ivestigate other than what is needed to make the installation safe.

the home owner would have to contact a qualified person to investigate from my understanding.

if a death or near death has happend then the hse may be involved as it will become a police investigation scene and careful and proper records will be needed.

Read industry unsafe situations proceedure, but more importantly BS7967 part 1.

 

[Reg Man]

Specific gravity of air = 1 Specific gavity of CO 0.968, So not alot in it. CO tends to rise because of stratification due to heat.

 

[Pssst]

There has been much heated debate particularly between ESP's/OFGEM and certain CO charities over the years as to who should carry what to investigate CO/fumes etc,

It all comes down to money.

ESPs will say that their licence conditions and money allocated by OFGEM only require them to make safe in fumes type reports. Generally then,that is all they will do and it is for the customer to engage a suitable GSR to investigate further.

ESPs say,,OFGEM dont give us money to do any more than that and so they dont. One or two ESPs are now issuing personal atmospheric monitors.

It does seem ridiculous that ESPs send their people to reports of fumes where there may be danger and yet they have no means of testing the atmosphere to protect themselves!


In situations where injury or death is likely to have occurred due to CO,this then becomes a HSE matter and in the case of death, a police matter especially if the cause of death might be due to negligence or criminal act.

GSRs are unlikely to be called to such incidents and it will be dealt with by the emergency services in conjunction with ESPs who will then flag to the HSE.

If a GSR does a follow up visit as a result of "fumes" make safe by an ESP, i do not believe they are required to have obtained the necessary atmospheric analysis certification although it may be desirable. I believe they can still act using their existing qualifications.

 

[AWheating]

Read industry unsafe situations proceedure, but more importantly BS7967 part 1.

no idea what it say in the BS tbh, dont have a copy. please post if possible.


so in a normal situation of a report of fumes that has no effect on a person health will the esp engineer come and make safe and leave it to the home owner to arrange an engineer or would the esp provide and pay for an engineer to come out? what determines wether the esp has to investigate further paying for a gas safe engineer to do so?

makes the situation of esp engineers not having the test equipment even stranger imo.

 

[Reg Man]

Would be great if I could post the BS7976 part 1, but this has strict copy write, sso can not do so. The Industry unsafe situations proceedure touches on the topic but not in gret detail.

What normaly happens investigation wise is; The occupier may have symptoms of CO and will call the emergency services and or ESP. The ESP role is only to disconnect and make safe the gas installation. RIDDOR will be raised and HSE and Gas Supplier consulted. Decision will then be made wether to carryout a full incident investigation. If an investigation is to take place, the gas supplier has the duty to organise and pay for it. They will contract the investigation work out to specialist incident investigators. The investigation will most likely consist of a full reconstruction and simulation of the gas installation with follow up incident report, to assist all parties into making decisions as to if any further action is necessary

 

[AWheating]

what actions such investigations? ie. just a complaint or does a doctors report/blood works need to be done? would the esp engineer always riddor and the hse get involved even on the report of a headache?

 

[Reg Man]

what actions such investigations? ie. just a complaint or does a doctors report/blood works need to be done? would the esp engineer always riddor and the hse get involved even on the report of a headache?

Normaly Hospital or doctor say symptoms consistant with CO poisoning, not allways with conclusive blood test results, Also if the victim starts throwing their weight around to HSE or local MP, that can trigger an investigation.

 

[Mike Jackson]

im sure its 2m off the floor as co is lighter than air.

And this is why only suitably qualified people should investigate CO poisoning incidents. CO is the same specific gravity as air but will tend to rise as it is given off from a heat producing appliance.

The height of the probe could be anything, it is located where the casualties head would have been. There is generally another probe connected to a high CO machine located adjacent to the appliance that is thought to have been the source of the CO. Both anaylsers will be located outside the premises connected to the analysers by silicone tubing.

 

[AWheating]

And this is why only suitably qualified people should investigate CO poisoning incidents. CO is the same specific gravity as air but will tend to rise as it is given off from a heat producing appliance.

The height of the probe could be anything, it is located where the casualties head would have been. There is generally another probe connected to a high CO machine located adjacent to the appliance that is thought to have been the source of the CO. Both anaylsers will be located outside the premises connected to the analysers by silicone tubing.

is that the procedure written in the british standards? or has this been developed by others like the hse or enviro agency?

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's what I was taught on the City and Guilds Carbon Monoxide Incident management and investigation course. All measurement was done from outside the property. If the analysers were inside you had no way of telling how much CO was being produced until you went back in and if the analyser had failed you would not know until after the test was completed. The test for CO build up could take from a few minutes to a few hours and with the analysers inside you wouldn't know how it was going. Once the test was complete it could then take hours for the CO to disperse to a point where it was safe to enter the property. Just imagine waiting all day to find that something had failed part way through.

 

[Reg Man]

It's what I was taught on the City and Guilds Carbon Monoxide Incident management and investigation course. All measurement was done from outside the property. If the analysers were inside you had no way of telling how much CO was being produced until you went back in and if the analyser had failed you would not know until after the test was completed. The test for CO build up could take from a few minutes to a few hours and with the analysers inside you wouldn't know how it was going. Once the test was complete it could then take hours for the CO to disperse to a point where it was safe to enter the property. Just imagine waiting all day to find that something had failed part way through.

Me too C&G incident investigation qualified. Main point for remote simulation testing from outside of the property, is not to kill you or anyone else firstly, then the results may proove if it happened. Keep your test equipement up to date and have a back up. On know account any one try this unless you are qualified, this is an extremely risky task, requires alot of consideration, assessment and experience before undertaking a simulation test.