Regulations

[Sue Foster]

Hi,

I found this forum today because I need someone qualified that knows about central heating regulations. I have just purchased a new part ownership house, in the kitchen it has a radiator next to the washing machine, it is impossible to move the machine in and out without taking the radiator off the wall and it's a 2 man job with one holding the radiator while the other forced the machine in the hole that has been measured incorrectly. I have requested that a smaller radiator be fitted so that I can access the machine on my own. I live alone with a young child and would not be able to get the machine out if I needed to. The neighbour's houses have the same problem too. I been told that the radiators have been designed to each specific room and there are regulations on sizes? Is this correct because I can't find any regulations on radiator sizes? Thanks for any help in advance.

 

[Paulus]

Hi Sue, and welcome.

The size and situation of the room dictate the ideal size of radiator for that room but there are no regulations to say what size radiator has to be fitted. A smaller rad will just give out less heat.

 

[Sue Foster]

Thank you that's really helpful

 

[kirkgas]

It depends who has specified the heating system, there are set temperatures that need to be met to replace the heat loss back up to a comfortable level so yes you could fit a smaller rad but it won't give the same heat
Is the kitchen hot enough just now? I imagine it is so if you half the size of the radiator you will double the time it needs to be on to provide the same heat, and that still might not heat the room properly, once the output of the rad has been calculated you fit a rad to suit a space you have
Ie 600mm high x 1000mm long single panel or a 600mm high x 50m long double panel
So it might be possible to change the rad to a shorter and higher one but depends whether that is possible with the space, if you rent it's best to get whoever is the owner out to have a discussion, if you own then you need to organise a visit from a plumber to discuss the options

 

[Ray Stafford]

I think we need to be clear about the difference between regulations and standards.

There are no "regulations" regarding rad sizes, - not the way that there are regulations covering gas issues, flues etc.

But there are standards and best practice guides. Reducing the radiator size will probably mean that the installation no longer meets those standards, which might be an issue if the property is maintained by a contractor who is contractually obliged to meet those standards.

 

[Plumbstar Tom]

I think this will be very difficult to have anything done at the landlords expense it is just bad design/planning. Sorry to bear a negative opinion and I would not be happy partiicularly if it springs a leak and needs to be isolated or similar as you cannot get it out.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Hi Sue.
As everyone else said.
So when your house was being built NEW they needed to put a certain size rad in that room in order for it to warm the room to a certain temperature.
So the radiators were sized to meet established standards
But
once you have bought it you can take out the rad completely if you want or change it to a smaller one.

I note you state you own part of it so you will need to check out the arrangements with the landlord - are you allowed to change it at your own expense?

 

[Sue Foster]

I'm going to see if they will sort this out, I've worked out the BTUs and the radiator's output in there at the moment exceeds the calculations I have made.

 

[AWheating]

ill tell you exactly what has happened. Ive seen it on plenty of new build jobs. the heating system has been designed correctly, with the correctly sized radiators. The position of the radiator has been agreed with the landlord and builder before any work has started. Then the builder has got the kitchen company in to design the kitchen without thought to the actually radiators size. Its the main contractors design liability and the fault of them and the kitchen designer.

What will happen in the real world is the plumbing company will be blamed for the problem and told it should be altered at there cost.

from your point of view the kitchen is not fit for purpose, so get onto your landlord. If they seem against moving/changing the rad then request that they must attend when you need to remove and install the appliance. Then insist on cleaning behind it once every 2 weeks. If that does n ot sway them, drop the pressure in the heating system by creating a leak on the kitchen radiator valve and phone them to come and fix the leak. Then a week later, phone the leak through again, and again saying you keep catching the rad when you remove the machine.

as with all large HA landlords, complian enough and you will get it done.

 

[Sue Foster]

The trouble is I bought half the house and we are classed as private owners so will be responsible for the interior as if it were our own. This is why I brought this up on the snagging list when I moved in and want it sorted out. I have emailed them that question, if they won't correct it are they going to come out and help. I am yet to receive a reply.

 

[stevetheplumber]

then you can do as you please but at your own expense welcome to the world of home ownership

 

[Rickster123]

What H.A is are you with??

 

[Sue Foster]

I already owned a house before but got divorced so half buying and half renting was the best way for us. The housing association is Sanctuary. I want to see if they will sort this fault out first, they have already had to do other jobs, what with my garden and gas meter box flooding and more..lol

 

[Worcester]

As the others have said to make the heating system work efficeintly in your new house, the radiator SIZE has (should have) been designed specifically for that room.

Removing or changing the radiator size will actually mess us the whole balance of the heating and therfore it may cost a lot more to run.

However there are solutions.

What is the current size (height, length) of your radiator and the type - one panel with fines, double panel with fins on both, or double panel with fins on one panel only - you should be able to see that by looking from above it through the slats.

From that we can then tell you what alternative sizes and types would give you the same power output, and so could be fitted as a replacement (power is kW or for the oldun's around here BTU's/hr)

Ideally what length would you like the radiator to be?

 

[Worcester]

Note also what others have said, this is a design c*** *p and so should be fixed for you foc as part of the snagging list, especially if you get your other new buying neighbours to complain as well.

 

[AWheating]

if its a new house then there should be warrantys on not only the build but also its design/latent defects. If it has an nhbc or zurich cert then contact them, they may force the builder back to put right.

 

[Sue Foster]

As the others have said to make the heating system work efficeintly in your new house, the radiator SIZE has (should have) been designed specifically for that room.

Removing or changing the radiator size will actually mess us the whole balance of the heating and therfore it may cost a lot more to run.


However there are solutions.

What is the current size (height, length) of your radiator and the type - one panel with fines, double panel with fins on both, or double panel with fins on one panel only - you should be able to see that by looking from above it through the slats.

From that we can then tell you what alternative sizes and types would give you the same power output, and so could be fitted as a replacement (power is kW or for the oldun's around here BTU's/hr)

Ideally what length would you like the radiator to be?

The radiator in there now is 600 x600 mm and has a row of fins, fixed to one side inside the radiator when I look in the top.

I requested one the same size that is in my bathroom which is 400 x 600 mm, this may just allow enough room to get the machine out. The make is Stelrad.

My room measures W 1.9m L 3.3m H 2.38m approx I went on B&Q and worked out the BTU which was for normal heat 1088 BTU Cooler heat 979 and warmer heat 1197.

Looking at the smaller sized radiator in the stelrad catalogue it exceeds those outputs.

 

[Worcester]

Depends what flow temperature you assumed ... If you are running a condensing boiler in a new house, your water return temperature should be less than 55° so you'll be looking at a Δt of 40° so a 600*600 K1 will have an output of 440W / 1501 Btu/hr

ASSUMING a new build with the outside wall being 3.3m and a window of 1.2m x 1m then a quick calc (CIBSE ..) at the heat loss would be around 300 watts if you keep the heating on 24 hours a day, if you switch it off when out in the day or at night, then 340 watts.

So based on that data a 600*400 K1 rad would be undersized (298W) and so would create an imbalance in the heating system, a 600*400 P+ would be adequate at 400W (P+ - double panel radiator with fins on one panel only) it would be 18mm wider / thicker than your current rad.

However ... as said above, the builder should fix it and they should make sure it is sized correctly as they will (should) have the real heat loss calcs..

 

[Sue Foster]

I'm trying to get them out to look at it again and have complained again, my neighbour has done so too. Thanks for all the advice it's very helpful

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

if its a new house then there should be warrantys on not only the build but also its design/latent defects. If it has an nhbc or zurich cert then contact them, they may force the builder back to put right.

What that man said
this is a powerful route.

 

[Andyswad]

hard to visualize your particular layout but you can get 500mm wide washing machines not just the normal 600mm wide.
Too easy an answer?

 

[Worcester]

How many washing machines get replaced over the lifetime of a rad? The slot for the washing machine is 600 wide, a 500 wide one would have less capacity...

No reason why the OP should keep paying many times over for the builder/designers c*** *p ...

 

[BLOD]

Do you have small plastic pipe to the radiator, and is some of it coiled behind the rad ?

I've worked in a couple of new builds where the radiator blocking the washing machine had enough plastic pipe coiled behind to allow the rad to be removed and replace very easily without draining etc.

 

[Sue Foster]

The rad pipes are flexible but not long enough to move it out of the way easily,or place on the floor. I have suggested to them they make them longer.

I've looked at smaller washing machines, there aren't many about but they cost more than normal sized ones and don't have driers. Then I thought why should I fork out £450+ to buy a washing machine when its their mistake.

I've had an email today saying that the development team are looking at a couple of suggestions and are awaiting costs from contractors. Maybe all my emails and complaining has finally worked!!

I've suggested different ways, let's see what they come up with.

I did find a building control certificate from Assent, is that the same as nhbc? I've got the wrong plot's certificate in my folder too lol!

 

[Ermintrude]

House bashing is never done well or with any attention to detail.