Our splintered industry

[unguided1]

I wonder if the Mods can do a poll on what you the installers think of our industry in the last 20 years I feel it has been splintered to the detrement of the one man band.

So my question is Should there be individual bodies as there is now forcing you guys to specialise in just one or two technologies or should there be one umbrella body that covers you to do what you have been trained to do

Me personally I believe there should be just one body that you can register with and this body should police the industry properly to prosecute genuine cowboys.

I am looking forward to a healthy debate on this one, discuss

regards
Mike

 

[justlead1]

Hi During the time of plenty the policing never happened and it has been talked about since the founding of the plumbing institute. Unfortunately it will never change. Coupled with the fact that potential clients want the best deal, but do not know what they are buying. Outlaws plumbers who are designing and costing the correct system for the client. Which opens the door to the chances and combi fitters. The gas side of the trade is a good example where policing is concerned. Many people with gas qualification would have difficulty installing pipes, the cost of the qualifications are also a massive burden on trades men in rural areas where there are few installations. Your sentiment is to be appliqued. But the dog eat dog situation will always be present.

 

[secret squirrel]

Very difficult to police any industry. No doubt if this ever happened there would be huge cost implication for the honest tradesman. This would have to be passed on to the customer.

Of course you'll always find the customer who will want to pay but the vast majority will see this as an additional cost.

I agree with both posts, should be regulation, should be policed but how?

Forget the cowboys for a minute and look at a more complicated job that you do, you may sub the tiling, the electrics, the bathroom and concentrate on the gas, who is responsible for what? does everyone need to be qualified/registered with this "body". As the leader on the project overseeing it all would YOU need to be answerable to everything...... I don't mean just to the customer.....

I run the pipes to the boiler and all rads, my friend whose gas safe etc does the boiler and gas meter, where does my responsbibilty start and stop under "the supposed" regulation.

Trouble is in the plumbing industry there is so much cross over of other trades,

Also, gas safe, corgi and the rest would all be fighting for there piece of the pie....

 

[SimonG]

I agree one body that encompasses all and actively polices its members. A place a customer can take an unresolved issue and get something done. Eutopia, then he wakes up and realises that we are in the same old world.

Great idea, can't see it working.

I suppose it's how you define cowboy, mato on the rogue traders thread, what a muppet and you probably wouldn't let him change a lightbulb, yet on his van was a gs sticker. Maybe a lie maybe or not that particular individual. Yet the truth is that there are people I have come across, gs or oftec registered who probably shouldn't even be behind the steering wheel.

Yet I digress, my pet hate, oftec, couldn't give a monkeys about unregistered installers or technicians, just to persecute people who decide to pay money to them to be a member of their "umbrella" to show joe public that they work to the correct and safe ways of working. You then go to a service or breakdown, been looked after by the bloke with the big hoover who doesn't know what oftec even stands for, right its fixed or serviced, but, here's a list of non compliances single skin tank, tank base, soldered fittings on oil line, no fire valve etc etc. Well it's been ok for however many years and "Fred" never said anything, you're just trying to rip me off. Then I have to go through the please yourself, but its all documented on that bit of paper I'm leaving you, so when it goes pear shaped my backside is covered.

So is "Fred" a cowboy? To me yes, to the customer no. Thats a problem.

Had a problem on a worcester install 32/50, puffing away like Ivor the Engine. Call in to worcester, send engineer out, spends three hours, changes oil pump, motor and what ever else, he leaves boiler running fine. Next morning when cold back to square one. Next worcester engineer comes out and in ten minutes its fixed, design issue with blast tube, new one has hole in it so photo cell can see flame. Was the first engineer a cowboy, no, he was a gas boiler engineer who just happened to be in the area and had done the necessary training but no experience. Second guy, oil engineer, lived and breathed oil problems.

The whole things gone too far, too many regulators, and I use the term "regulator" very loosely, their happy getting our money for nothing in return. Who's going to change it, the government, no, too busy fixing everything else, the "regulators", no, why should they change something that works for them, us, no, just voices in the wilderness. You can put the world to rights in the pub over a few beers with your mates, but unfortunately I can't see things changing, well for the better, I can definitely see things getting worse.

I know, lets us all stick 2 fingers up to gs oftec and the like and stop paying their wages and stop them from trading, then introduce something that covers everything and employs good knowledgeable individuals and not just failed engineers.

Rant over but I do reserve the right to add to it.

 

[unguided1]

One idea I have for policing the industry is to involve insurance companies every property at the end of the day should have insurance, the insurance industry loves making money for old rope and this could apply to plumbing and heating and electrical.

When things go wrong a lot of the time it is the insurance companies that have to pay for repairs therefore if the insurance companies insisted on annual inspections for properties this could help the industry in many ways for a start it would create more jobs within the industry.

The idea I have for an Umbrella organisation is this, keep Oftec Gas Safe, MCS and Heatas as they are, therefor if you only want to work in one part of the industry you can, but if you are qualified to work on all of these instead of paying to be a member of all four organisations seperatley they could come under one charge also the umbrella organisation should not just cover the appliances but also the whole system including bathrooms, kitchens, drainage, heating system, open vented and unvented and so on this Umbrella organisation could in theory be partially funded by the insurance industry if the annual inspections came about.

This is only an idea I am sure that there are ways that this industry could be improved, Gas Safe are currently undergoing a review at this moment but they are only interested in Gas I feel this a huge mistake and that they should go a lot further, unfortunately they are working to a mandate and have no interest in anything other than gas.

May be now is the time for some radicall changes in our industry but instead of sitting back and being dictated on how our industry is run maybe us the installers on the ground should be forcing how we want our industry to be run, I know that I am hugely dissapointed with the way our industry has gone since I started in the late 70s the trouble with the young guys who have only been in the industry in the last 10 to 15 years they have never known anything else and just except the costs as part of the way it goes

 

[ecowarm]

I have been to a commercial job and the oil installation is a pile of doggy do, everything is wrong, phoned OFTEC for advice and was told I couldn't complain about the Oftec installer that had done the job but the customer can, and they will send an inspector out and force the company to put it right. The customer contacted oftec and was told it would cost her £4000 yes £4k to get an inspector out! I am going to speak to them on Monday, how can they justify that amount? I thought maybe £400-500 for an inspection would be reasonable. We dont have Oftec on here do we?

 

[fuzzy]

i have an issue with the splintered industry, saying plumber is now a catchall for numerous types of trades. renewables, gas, oil, water, domestic, commercial, industrial. should be further broke down

 

[unguided1]

i have an issue with the splintered industry, saying plumber is now a catchall for numerous types of trades. renewables, gas, oil, water, domestic, commercial, industrial. should be further broke down

Thats intersting why? the more its broken down the more it will cost us, Ok for big companies, but bad for one man bands

 

[fuzzy]

coz it is confusing for the customer, the traineee, adults hoping to get into and therefore understand the industry. not many people do all aspects, i dont agree with it really, there should be clear transparency of skills. the trade should be renamed and clear indication of skills.

now, i have no idea how that could be done unguided, lol, i know the problem but not the solution!!!!!

maybe a trade card and plumber is the overiding term with added aspects for further skills, i suppose that happens at the mo with gas, but im sure this could be simplified. if money is an issue you pay say 200 for your annula card and 30 extra per skill, merge it with the gas scheme?

all this is idealistic i know and unlikely, i think its an issue though

 

[justlead1]

It is interesting too here the view of others regarding our trade. The idea of specialising in one or two aspects of the trade, rather than the full suit is a valid point. However in these day of little, every sole trader plumber is trying to get a living. Only to pleased to take on any work plumbing or heating related. But the trade has changed, skill is a smaller part of our trade than knowledge. Our training does not mimic this fact. The design and physics associated with plumbing/heating should in my opinion be the first step in training (If you can not get your head around it your out) This will raise the standard in the long term. Along with a training objective of providers, to turn out quality and not the bums on seats approach which provides financial supports for training organisations but not the trade.
Specialising in subjects within our trade takes a lot longer to get established, than an across the board approach but again the long term gain is superior. And offers those pursuing this aim to become gurus in their field. Which benefits clients and allow the acquired knowledge to purchase of materials at the right money. It also removes the camouflage that exists when taking on every thing that come through the door and introduces accountability to the sole trader. Which in its self is a form of policing (If you don't get it right you go hungry)
My own specialty being lead sheet. The reason for this was the constant problems of call back from plumbing and heating clients. The majority being fualty materials (plastic, electric components, boilers and alike) i got feed up with playing finacial snakes & ladders and the knowledge for this is probable about 5% of the plumbing and heating needs. The point being as a specialist i feel a greater responsibility to clients and accountable.

 

[fuzzy]

how much work do you get with soley lead?

 

[Guest123]

I used to specialise in sheet lead, but it's no fun being up a roof in the middle of a Scottish winter. I believe that everyone is to there own and plumbers should do plumbing, sparkies do electrics etc. or what's the point of having apprenticeships for each trade. I'm JIB registered as a plumber and carry my card and show it to customers. There are a growing number of bodies that charge huge fees to be registered with them and it's just a business to them. That Job sorted thing with B&Q only uses the Chartered Institute of Plumbing which isn't really recognised up here, yet I'm JIB registered and can't use that with them, so according to my listing on their website, I'm an unregistered plumber, which I'm not. I'm not forking out anoth few hundred quid just to be registered with yet another cash cow registration body. Even when I registered with Plumbfix, they wanted my gas safe number. I don't do gas, I'm not interested in doing gas, I install bathrooms, what a pile of crap I had to do to convince them that I was a fully qualified and registered plumber. Why do these people think that I must be Gas Safe to be a plumber? Some of my bathroom/wetroom installs take a long time and require a lot of hard earned knowledge and skill, so I don't feel that what I specialise in is in any way less to being a gas installer. One national UK wide governing body would be a good idea with a set code of practice for us all to folllow. I just don't see it happening as all these registration mobs just want our money to keep them and their staff in a job.

 

[justlead1]

Hi Fuzzy I take it you mean only lead (or have i missed a pun) as my name is Scholey. I do alright. The price of lead has taken it toll, but owing to others cutting back on marketing it balances out. One thing that i think is a benifit is the fact that 80% of my work is fabricated in a workshop. As such the working day can be any 8 hours of the 24, which allows a life especially in the winter months. Could be up for grabs soon if you fancy a go.

 

[fuzzy]

Hi Fuzzy I take it you mean only lead (or have i missed a pun) as my name is Scholey. I do alright. The price of lead has taken it toll, but owing to others cutting back on marketing it balances out. One thing that i think is a benifit is the fact that 80% of my work is fabricated in a workshop. As such the working day can be any 8 hours of the 24, which allows a life especially in the winter months. Could be up for grabs soon if you fancy a go.

no pun mate no, i do like lead, if i went into business i think i would do that work, as you say you can work from home alot more or from the workshop (big shed in back garden for me!) less hours on site and specialist work. less call backs, makes sence

 

[Guest123]

A lot of building control up here won't allow lead burning which I think is daft as it negates the thinning of bossed lead sheet, so making it up in a workshop with welded gussets wouldn't be allowed. Again an increasing number of sites especially listed historical buildings won't allow heat either. It's a bugger dressing code 8 without heat in the middle of winter! I like your website justlead1 and the way you promote yourself and lead sheet, but I just wouldn't go back to doing only lead again as I enjoy plumbing more.

 

[justlead1]

Hi Building Control have the same problem as unguilded has posted here, a massive amount of knowledge to absorb. Which like plumbing it's absorbed by some but not all. Providing lead welding is not performed on the roof (fire risk) on general buildings there is not a problem but on heritage stuff it can be a different matter, owing to a few beautiful buildings being burnt down by lead welders. Your point Systems3 is valid, but another reason for my choice is price work it"s the only thing that has motivates me.
The bathroom/shower room part of the trade is booming for the people who sell the kit but the plumbers who do the work fail to investing in a showroom and selling the service. (For probably 30% more than they get at present) The high street still works and the shops are getting cheaper.

 

[Guest123]

Hi Building Control have the same problem as unguilded has posted here, a massive amount of knowledge to absorb. Which like plumbing it's absorbed by some but not all. Providing lead welding is not performed on the roof (fire risk) on general buildings there is not a problem but on heritage stuff it can be a different matter, owing to a few beautiful buildings being burnt down by lead welders. Your point Systems3 is valid, but another reason for my choice is price work it"s the only thing that has motivates me.
The bathroom/shower room part of the trade is booming for the people who sell the kit but the plumbers who do the work fail to investing in a showroom and selling the service. (For probably 30% more than they get at present) The high street still works and the shops are getting cheaper.

The problem there is that it costs at least 10 grand to kit out and open a shop and that's on top of the 10 grand it costs to start up as a plumber in the first place. I get my business as you do by specialising in one particular field. Yours is lead, mine is bespoke designer bathrooms. All my furniture that goes into a bathroom install is hand made and built to my customers requirements with matching (often very expensive) basins and accessories. I enjoy the whole process from designing to installation and the look on the customers face when they see the finished work often makes it all worthwhile. I'm getting too long in the tooth to be jumping around roofs now with rolls of lead and burning gear! To be successful these days, I think you have to be different from what everyone else is doing.

 

[justlead1]

Hi Systems, i agree, but if it works you have a business to sell when the years run out.

 

[Guest123]

Hi Systems, i agree, but if it works you have a business to sell when the years run out.

Or I hope to pass on to my wee boy when he's older.

 

[paulnwales]

i have not done any lead work for at least 10 years, its the roofers around here that get the work. personally wer i live you seem to have to do a bit of most aspects of p&h, i find if i turn a client away saying i dont do that sorry i never hear off them again.

 

[philtheflush]

policing is all well and good but how much more will this cost and where will it end, you pay for training you pay for qualifications you pay to renew your qualifications you pay to upgrade your qualifications you pay for more trainingyou pay to be a member of a body you pay to renew your membership. you police it and you will pay! and so will the customer! and nothing will change you will still get the cowboys because people will always want it done cheaper

 

[fuzzy]

there must be a system that works, honestly we can do it in other areas, there must be an achieveable, reasonable, cost effective way

 

[truemanufan]

Cowboys should be prosecuted! Not just for gas work for all water work too! All work should be done to current standards and no corner cutting

 

[david williams]

why not become a plumber,12 week master plumbers!! the future is bleak.

 

[Puddle]

why not become a plumber,12 week master plumbers!! the future is bleak.

Still bringing up that old post David ,the future is as bleak as we make it

The trade stands for change,we instigate it ,throughout time it has always been the plumbing trade that picks up things,develops them and sets them out on their own,look around ,so many trades have began under the plumbing wing ,now they can support themselves but originate from the plumbing umbrella

We will do the same with renewables when the time comes

Splintered industry? we are a continually evolving industry,we can not be rapped up in a neat little package with one governing body,we do not stand still long enough,our trade has/will develop things and ideas long before the governing body appears for it and we can not slow things down to let any governing bodies stay with the pace of things,this is why we have a rule MI over ride any existing regs,to allow development

The word plumber stands for multi skills and open mindedness and hunger for development and willingness to utilise those developments
Have said before,you do not learn plumbing in 6 weeks,6 months or 5 years,you learn it over a life time
A plumber continues to evolves into what ever area or situation he finds himself in,if he or she can not do that and want to spend all your time repairing tap washers and installing washing machines,they are not a plumber

A splintered industry,covering lots of areas with lots of official bodies,some over crossing each other with new areas coming on line all the time....yes it is...thats plumbing

If you want everything nice and tidy,go stack shelves at Thorntons or one trick pony

There is a argument about the cost of joining all organisations,especially renewables as regards giving the bigger companies an edge but that iss a different argument

imho

 

[fuzzy]

good point puddle about an evolving industry. my point is it should be divided up, it has become so vast. nothing wrong with that, but these days plumber can cover so much, do we need new titles to describe what we do?

 

[justlead1]

When in the pub and offered tobacco at half price i bite there hand off. Highly illegal, with many enforcement agency's policing this action. Like me, Joe public will always look for a deal.

 

[fuzzy]

When in the pub and offered tobacco at half price i bite there hand off. Highly illegal, with many enforcement agency's policing this action. Like me, Joe public will always look for a deal.

and you dont even smoke!

 

[Guest123]

and you dont even smoke!

Might be the whackie Backie! LOL

 

[Puddle]

good point puddle about an evolving industry. my point is it should be divided up, it has become so vast. nothing wrong with that, but these days plumber can cover so much, do we need new titles to describe what we do?

When the time is right and with enough demand it does divide up but it all takes time,it can not be rushed

We have all lots of titles in the trade and plumbing has always covered so much,probably said the same when we were glazing and bringing on the electrical side of things,the only problem is what to call the stage one new comers/fast trackers if you like ,as much for their sake really as they think that with a bit of training they become fully fledged plumbers capable of earning a good wage,this has never been the case,as said being a plumber is as much about experience as any training and all that experience just leads you to know what training you really need

We talk about cowboys operating outside the system and any official bodies but to me fast tracking a person through some of these colleges and training centers,fleecing them of so much money,giving them a qualification and officially letting them loose in peoples houses after a few weeks is I think even more criminal and very unfair to the trainees aswell as customers.This trade demands a lot of conference in what you do also and by the industry not giving trainees prober support we are doing them a great disservice

as a footnote ,it seems to me the industry and governing bodies underestimates the skills needed by individuals in this industry to cover the different aspects involved and carry out the work involved in a honest and correct way

If you are a experienced plumber,do a simple test,sit down and list your skills,you will be surprised how long the list gets,if we do not immediately realise what is needed maybe it is unfair to expect governing bodies to realise and allow for it

Sorry I have gone on and off topic but that is the trade,I do not believe one body could be effective and also believe one of anything breeds corruption



imho

 

[stevetheplumber]

its ok having gained many skills in your career but then you go on to a site and your not allowed to practice them unless you have the relevant skill card/certificate
i can no longer fit unvented cylinder despite having a 20 year old qualification reason you now have to update it ,why whats changed ?

 

[SimonG]

i can no longer fit unvented cylinder despite having a 20 year old qualification reason you now have to update it ,why whats changed ?

What changed is that somebody realised they could make a rake of cash by making us resit things every 5 years and have to be re certified. The training center scores, the certification body scores and we have to claw it back from the customers in dribs and drabs over the 5 years.

 

[Guest123]

I think that fast trackers should have to go through a probationery period before being allowed to be fully qualified. Who oversees this? Well one of the many registration bodies that take our hard earned cash, give them a purpose and something useful to do.