Measuring Room CO

[Hobo128]

Hi, I have bought a fga and it has on it room CO. I have never used it but tonight could have done with using it and understanding it. I was called to a back boiler that had been condemned due to lack of servicing and was spilling product of combustion into the room. The bloke who was there before me had measured the room co and classified it as ID. The landlord then contacted me and after looking at the boiler I decided not to query the bloke who had condemned it and told the landlord it's new boiler time.

I want to know what are the tolerances for room CO and where can I find this literature in british standards or building regs so I can have a read and understand it my self.

Thanks in advance

Tom

 

[lame plumber]

or you could have serviced the boiler?

 

[Hobo128]

Na it's cream cracker ed and inefficient

 

[kirkgas]

This would be covered in your CPA training notes, and also which BS you will find the full room CO test procedure, I can't remember the BS off the top of my head


Bit of digging, it's BS 7967 ( really can't remember if it's part 1,2,3 or 4) it's not part 5 that's commercial

 

[snowhead]

Wiki as a last resort;

Carbon monoxide poisoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Half way down on RHS

 

[albatross]

I was called to a back boiler that had been condemned due to lack of servicing and was spilling product of combustion into the room. The bloke who was there before me had measured the room co and classified it as ID. The landlord then contacted me and after looking at the boiler I decided not to query the bloke who had condemned it and told the landlord it's new boiler time.

I say you did the right thing, I would have done the same. You want to be leaving customers with appliances you can be 100% sure are safe not putting your name to something that has a dubious history, works fine when you test it then it spills again when the wind changes!

You could end up with your cell mate doing a spillage test on you!! haha

 

[Hobo128]

Cheer again. Found what I was looking for. It's no more than 10ppm. I have ordered the "Using Portable Electronic Combustion Gas Analysers For Investigating Reports Of Fumes - GID11" .
This has the british standards in that I need so abit of boning up and i'll be sweet.

 

[kirkgas]

Cheer again. Found what I was looking for. It's no more than 10ppm. I have ordered the "Using Portable Electronic Combustion Gas Analysers For Investigating Reports Of Fumes - GID11" .
This has the british standards in that I need so abit of boning up and i'll be sweet.

How much are you paying for GID11

 

[lame plumber]

isnt the ability to do room co monitoring a separate gas ticket on its own, as when I asked when I did cpa 1, we were told it wasnt part of the training and leave well alone. After all your going into a dangerous situ and you dont want to be stood there testing. However you keep getting calls to co alarms going off and what to do, apart fm open all the doors and windows and test appliances then room air and ambient outside to find the problem

 

[Reg Man]

Lets look back at this. Really worrying. Is the BBU and fire safe for use? I would not expect to see any CO in the room from an open flued appliance. You may get background levels from flueless appliances. Does the appliances pass 26(9) checks?

 

[Ermintrude]

No bbu is fine it's the 5 chain smokers, burning grill and spilling coke bbu on adjoining chimney?

 

[Reg Man]

Yer yer yer. We know BBU's are not very efficient. But they work very well and safe when installed correctly and serviced properly. Recommend an efficient replacement, but what is wrong with the current system? Check it out properly and then plan for the major upgrade.

 

[TBServices]

BBUs are awesome boilers. Nowt to go wrong!

Condemned a few for flue issue etc but on the whole, very good

 

[Reg Man]

BBUs are awesome boilers. Nowt to go wrong!

Condemned a few for flue issue etc but on the whole, very good

Only when installed and serviced properly.

 

[Ermintrude]

Un usual to get both. Good install and through service? No way !

 

[TBServices]

Yeah of course, as with anything. Difference between a BBU and a current boiler being, you can usually rescue a bbu/of boiler from a life of neglect with a good service.

 

[Reg Man]

BBU's are at the end of there life, but served well in their time. Many modern day boilers have been changed many times in the same time frame, and yet the faithfully BBU still chugs on. Inefficient but match that up against cost of replacement.

 

[kirkgas]

isnt the ability to do room co monitoring a separate gas ticket on its own, as when I asked when I did cpa 1, we were told it wasnt part of the training and leave well alone. After all your going into a dangerous situ and you dont want to be stood there testing. However you keep getting calls to co alarms going off and what to do, apart fm open all the doors and windows and test appliances then room air and ambient outside to find the problem

Don't confuse CMDDA1 (haha I can never remember the right code for for it) with CPA as they are different, but measuring room CO is required as part of CPA and is covered in the notes, and is something to be considered when called to a CO alarm activation, CMDDA1 is a full fumes investigation procedure, I actually keep meaning to find the time to do CMDDA1 just to enhance my understanding

 

[lame plumber]

Don't confuse CMDDA1 (haha I can never remember the right code for for it) with CPA as they are different, but measuring room CO is required as part of CPA and is covered in the notes, and is something to be considered when called to a CO alarm activation, CMDDA1 is a full fumes investigation procedure, I actually keep meaning to find the time to do CMDDA1 just to enhance my understanding

when you do , post a precis of it all please. My cpa1 was somewhat basic and not worth the cost of a day off work and the cost of the course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! had to go out and buy some manuals to find out what should have been taught

 

[kirkgas]

when you do , post a precis of it all please. My cpa1 was somewhat basic and not worth the cost of a day off work and the cost of the course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! had to go out and buy some manuals to find out what should have been taught

Haha aye right, I might sell you them

 

[AMGasServices]

Well I'm sure it's 1 meter away from the appliance 1.8 meter high. And any thing up to 10ppm. Although that test last 30 mins if I'm getting a reading above 5/6 ppm in 30 mins I still Capp the appliance.

 

[stevetheplumber]

when you do , post a precis of it all please. My cpa1 was somewhat basic and not worth the cost of a day off work and the cost of the course!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! had to go out and buy some manuals to find out what should have been taught

i completely agree didnt realy teach me anything as i already new or had access to the action levels for various appliances i was hoping it would have shown me more from what faults could cause readings etcand how the readings relate to each other
i still dont understand why boilers are set up on co2 readings rather than the ratio or monoxide readings when its the ratio thats important for servicing and its the monoxide thats deadly can anyone recomend any reading matter that might enlighten me

 

[Reg Man]

There is a huge difference between testing boiler combustion figures and atmospheric readings in occupied spaces. Atmospheric testing is normally a specialist discipline for incident investigations, but can be used where there has been a report of fumes.

 

[lambchop]

i completely agree didnt realy teach me anything as i already new or had access to the action levels for various appliances i was hoping it would have shown me more from what faults could cause readings etcand how the readings relate to each other
i still dont understand why boilers are set up on co2 readings rather than the ratio or monoxide readings when its the ratio thats important for servicing and its the monoxide thats deadly can anyone recomend any reading matter that might enlighten me

the way it understand it is that is stoichiometric combustion (can only be performed in lab conditions) will theoretically stop CO being produced when 9.76 volumes of air per volume of gas is present. Burner design can't simulate stoichiometric combustion, excess air is introduced, in order for complete combustion to take place. This for me is the tricky part and will need to research more or someone here can help. co2 is diluted by volume as excess air is introduced and sacrificed to form co below stoichiometric conditions.

when adjusting air/gas ratio, too much air, good combustion, no carbon ( less maintenance, thermal efficiency). Not enough air, bad combustion, more carbon (increased maintenance, thermal efficiency). Hence m.i.s give a zone to adjust to.

co ratio indicates to me the condition of the burner and hence whether cleaning/investigation required. Deposits on the burner, carbon can lead to flame impingement, producing cold spots on the flame, resulting in incomplete combustion and more deposits, vicious cycle.

I hope this helps, little nervous about being wrong/unclear but would rather be put straight if I am

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I want to know what are the tolerances for room CO and where can I find this literature in british standards or building regs so I can have a read and understand it my self.

Obviously you are asking this inrelation to being a gas-man called to a possible CO incident so advice by Kirk and others applies and I don't know the answer.

But I do know a bit about CO and safe levels in rooms - always worth knowing this general stuff. In the appendix of the book Carbon Monoxide Not only A Killer by that wonderful woman Deborah Percy are details from the BS that CO alarms are based on
AND above these levels of CO are harmful to health - EVEN if they don't actually kill.

Standard BS EN 50291-1: 2010 time & level to trigger alarm50ppm for more than 1 hour and less than 90 minutes
100ppm between 10 to 40 minutes
300ppm for less than 3 minutes
Workplace Air Quality Standards
There are higher workplace standards for healthy adults, people may be exposed to higher
levels in the normal course of their work, for example toll booth operators and indoor car
park attendants.
In the UK workplace standard defined by the HSE (EH40, 2005):
Ÿ long term exposure limit over 8 hours is 30ppm
Ÿ short term exposure limit of 200ppm for 15 minutes

You can download the book in any format for free from Smashwords here:
Smashwords ? Carbon Monoxide Not Only a Killer ?a book by Deborah J Percy

In general it is well worth knowing that:
lots of smokers chain smoking and people using those middle eastern water pipes can contribute significantly to co levels.
Some houses next to roads in city centres are known to have constant levels of 20 - from outside.
Misuse of gas cookers including hobs is also a problem in some homes.

 

[Hobo128]

Ok Hello, So I have received my "Using portable electronic combustion gas analyzer for investigating reports of fumes" Book. From what I have read the CPA1 that we now require concentrates on gas appliance combustion performance, but does not assess work involved in taking atmosphere readings of CO or CO2 levels. So in other words ( they DONT teach you how to take these readings) However there was a proposed investigation assessment called CMDA1 but as it was difficult to ascertain the demand of gas engineers, it was not used in CPA1.

I am quoting this from the book: If an operative discovers combustion related defects when attending as part of a normal service visit , they need to decide whether they are competent in using the ECGA and other suitable instrumentation to measure CO in air.

If they are not, then they should proceed by rectifying the appliance without such instrumentation, or, make it safe and ensure someone with the requisite competences attends to undertake the investigation. ( Basically what this is saying is if the appliance has been kicking out POC and poisoning people, Make it safe either by servicing it or just capping it off then either (A) Open all windows doors, ventilate the property, remove the people or persons from the contaminated area to the open air and possible seek medical attention then call the ESP to come and investigate using CO monitor OR (B) Get this book and do some reading of how to use you FGA properly and safely. Although Gas engineers don't have to know how to do this I think it is very very useful. After all you could be stood in a property inhaling Carbon monoxide and not even knowing about it.

In the end I did have the old back boiler removed, It hadn't been service in years and was very inefficient. I replaced it with a Vokera Compact 29 A which I would recommend coz they are smart and easy to fit. Hope all information I have put is correct and helpful and I would recommend investing in the book I bought because I could see in the near future us having to do the CMDA1.

 

[Hobo128]

How much are you paying for GID11

£14.99 plus and ridiculous delivery cost of about £5. so £20.