Industrial unit boilers

[Kerr Gas 1]

Looking for some advice
got called out to quote for a job today and when I arrived at the address I realised it was a industrial unit, has one big room not huge with a couple small offices and two bathrooms and a small kitchen area. They have to combi boilersin at the moment combi 1 heats the big room via underfloor heating combi two does the kitchen area and bathrooms. So the two combis have to be replaced with condensing boilers usually I install worcesters so il probably go with two green star 30si. My question is does this job need a commercial engineer as its a business unit. I've checked gas meter which is a domestic u6 meter
Any replies appreciated

 

[SimonJohns]

Thats domestic as far as I can see. Just dont exceeds your limits. Pipe work and kw

 

[SimonJohns]

Forget the comment about the kw. You can't exceed 60kw

 

[Hardy1]

yep agree with simon johns, if you was still not sure , hey theres sum reading lol.

 

[dancinplumba]

Forget the comment about the kw. You can't exceed 60kw

is it not 70 kw ?

 

[SimonJohns]

is it not 70 kw ?

He can't exceed 60kw because he's using a u6

 

[JG123]

Just make sure your not out of scope with your IV make sure you include the meter IV and 10% for fittings... doubt you will exceed but just thought id say, how big is this place? why two combi boilers?

 

[Kerr Gas 1]

I asked the same question myself, it's a descent size floor space on the main office combi 1 heats this space through Ufh with 8 circuits that's all as far as I can see. Combi 2 heats kitchen/toilet area 3 double rads and also supplies hot water for kitchen. I'd think il call gas safe to be sure but thanks for heads up

 

[JG123]

No worries, your max IV is 0.035m3, and you meter IV is 0.008m3 so 0.035-0.008=0.027 divide this by

0.00084 per 1 mtr length for 35mm copper
0.00054 per 1 mtr length for 28mm copper
0.00032 per 1 mtr length for 22mm copper
0.00014 per 1 mtr length for 15mm copper

dont forget the 10% for fittings, this will give you a rough idea.

 

[Nostrum]

He can't exceed 60kw because he's using a u6

I always thought it was 6m3/hr although they were capable of more normally? Never heard it being translated in Kw before, is there much differance between the two?

 

[adam84]

Regardless of boiler or meter size, the regs state that the perpose of the premises dictates weather it is domestic or commercial, for example if you have your cookers ticket you still cant install/work on a cooker outside of domestic premises that is installed in an industrial unit or other commercial premises because you require changeover qualifications to work legally in commercial dwellings.

 

[JG123]

I spoke to gas safe regarding this a while back and was told if your in scope your ok?

 

[SimonJohns]

Regardless of boiler or meter size, the regs state that the perpose of the premises dictates weather it is domestic or commercial, for example if you have your cookers ticket you still cant install/work on a cooker outside of domestic premises that is installed in an industrial unit or other commercial premises because you require changeover qualifications to work legally in commercial dwellings.

how does that work??

i havent got a com cookers ticket?

if its less than 75kw per dwelling and not exceeding 0.0035m3 of gas then it is dom

how would you class this....

4bed house converted to offices, u16 meter and a worcester 42cdi combi? dom or com?

 

[adam84]

KW is irrelevant there are seperate British standards for domestic appliances and commercial appliances regardless of KW, also there is no special cooker ticket so to speak its the same domestic ticket but to be able to work in commercial enviroments with it you need to do the change over from domestic to commercial and vise-versa to work in domestic properties, the enviroment dictates what qualifications are needed.

 

[SimonJohns]

KW is irrelevant there are seperate British standards for domestic appliances and commercial appliances regardless of KW, also there is no special cooker ticket so to speak its the same domestic ticket but to be able to work in commercial enviroments with it you need to do the change over from domestic to commercial and vise-versa to work in domestic properties, the enviroment dictates what qualifications are needed.

You didn't reply to my scenario?

 

[SimonJohns]

And yes you are correct about the kws. Com Boiler is com

But you cannot install more than 75kw per dwelling

 

[adam84]

To answer your question to your scenario because the dwelling is no longer used for human habitation but offices instead, i would assume it is classed as a commercial premises, for more detailed requirements of the regulations you need to refer to the Institute of gas engineers: IGE/UP documents, these are available on line and form the basis for all work relating to1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases in the United kingdom these are the people that write the regulations on the behalf of the health and safety executive.

 

[SimonJohns]

To answer your question to your scenario because the dwelling is no longer used for human habitation but offices instead, i would assume it is classed as a commercial premises, for more detailed requirements of the regulations you need to refer to the Institute of gas engineers: IGE/UP documents, these are available on line and form the basis for all work relating to1st, 2nd and 3rd family gases in the United kingdom these are the people that write the regulations on the behalf of the health and safety executive.

Well I'm quite happy to carry on working on the appliances I work on

If its a <u16 <0.0035 <75kw it's dom

If any is over that it's com or if appliance dictates. Im sure most will agree with that statement

Just out of curiosity. What's your background with the industry. 20yrs + or a relative newbie ?

 

[adam84]

10+ Years in the industry as a 3rd generation plumber with a family background in domestic/commercial plumbing, heating and gas installation also 2 further years of training to what equates to NVQ level 4 in design and implementation of plumbing and gas services.

 

[SimonJohns]

10+ Years in the industry as a 3rd generation plumber with a family background in domestic/commercial plumbing, heating and gas installation also 2 further years of training to what equates to NVQ level 4 in design and implementation of plumbing and gas services.

Quite the portfolio

Where did you get the design and implementation. I was thinking of doing a bsc in building services or mechanical eng

 

[adam84]

I did the written and theory from home, though this is a somewhat long winded way as i had to make time to do this, on the upside there is no practical assessment as the qualification is designed for architects and such who have no hands on requirements. Try your local technical college or university, these institutions usually run this type of course though it helps to know the specific course as there are many and you dont want to enrol on one which is irrelavent to you.

 

[tamz]

I nearly missed this one before bed but here goes.
To the OP fit it. You are in scope.
To as why? Domestic boilers fitted in a commercial situation are classed by the boiler, meter and pipework. If it is a domestic boiler fitted in a commercial place the boiler and pipework determines the quals.
Say the job was in a steelworks (fed with a couple of 56M meters off IP on a 10" pipe( there is a photo of some of that in my profile if anyone is interested what it looks like)) but they had a small office block say 6 rads fed from a combi boiler. As long as the gas supply is valved as it reduces to 1 1/4" or less and there is a test nipple on the pipework it is fine to fit a domestic boiler and test from the valve.
Same scenario with a 65kw ecotec commercial boiler, on a 1" pipe and you are out of scope (cascade a couple of small domestic boilers to overcome it) because the boiler is classed as a commercial.
Domestic boilers on under 1 1/14" pipe in any situation can be done domestic if the the right circumstances.
I & C boilers, even if in a house and under 70kw cannot. It depends how the manu defines or classes their boiler.
Cookers are slightly different as different rules apply.
Btw Simon, think diversification :wink:

 

[Kerr Gas 1]

great piece of info there mate,
so im coming from a u6 meter which goes to 1 1/4" steel pipe which run for approx 15m then it reduces to 22mm copper to the boiler so my question would be can i treat this the same as a domestic install and test at the meter.

 

[SimonJohns]

great piece of info there mate,
so im coming from a u6 meter which goes to 1 1/4" steel pipe which run for approx 15m then it reduces to 22mm copper to the boiler so my question would be can i treat this the same as a domestic install and test at the meter.

You'll have to get your books out and slide rules. You need to calculate your Iv

 

[tamz]

so im coming from a u6 meter which goes to 1 1/4" steel pipe which run for approx 15m then it reduces to 22mm copper to the boiler so my question would be can i treat this the same as a domestic install and test at the meter.

If the total volume is below 0.035m³ then yes. You will need to work it out.

The formula is IVt = IVm + IVp + IVf

The volume of 1 1/4" steel is 0.0011m³/m
22mm copper is 0.00032m³/m
U6 meter is 0.0008m³
Add 10% for IVf
eg
IVt = IVm (0.0008) + IVp 1 1/4" (15 x 0.0011) + IVp 22mm (23 x 0.00032) + IVf (10% of IVp)
IVt = 0.0008 + 0.02386 + 0.002386 = 0.03425m³
Just inside the limit.