Implications with having two gas supplies in one building

[bacon_sandwich]

Just starting on a project that involves installing a new gas supply U40 2 inch job but the client already has a very old u16 supply which is piped from a remote meter box and underground steel pipe. The pipework cannot deal with the increase in demand required (quite frankly its not really up to the current demand) and as the existing pipework is basically scrap. I have a quote to put the new supply right up to the building considerably shortening the run at 21mbar.
However i may or may not de-commission the old pipework , client wants to keep the old set up as well as having a new one.
Anybody know the rules wrt multiple supplies to industrial buildings and how do we deal with isolation etc
thx

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Are you commercially bacon ?

 

[Last Plumber]

Just starting on a project that involves installing a new gas supply U40 2 inch job but the client already has a very old u16 supply which is piped from a remote meter box and underground steel pipe. The pipework cannot deal with the increase in demand required (quite frankly its not really up to the current demand) and as the existing pipework is basically scrap. I have a quote to put the new supply right up to the building considerably shortening the run at 21mbar.
However i may or may not de-commission the old pipework , client wants to keep the old set up as well as having a new one.
Anybody know the rules wrt multiple supplies to industrial buildings and how do we deal with isolation etc
thx

You can have more than one supply to a building.
I may be missing the point here Bacon!!
lots of Buildings have more than one supply.
They won't be linked will they?

 

[bacon_sandwich]

@Shaun - yep.
I was thinking along the lines of - client smells gas, he will have to isolate at two locations unless i put in some electric valves.
One supply existing feeds, 2 X combi, 1 X warm air heater, then extends to another building where it feeds 1 X warm air heater.
New supply is really for a new process boiler circa 250KW.
However the new boiler, combis and 1 X warm air heater are all in the same "space" i.e. an industrial unit.
Hope that makes sense

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So what's going to be fed from the old meter ?

 

[bacon_sandwich]

All existing, except the new process boiler. The new boiler will be in the same unit (space) as the existing combis and warm air heater.
wish i could draw it.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Try and make it clearer:
Option 1 : Existing U16 supply currently feeds 2X combi, 1 X warm air heater in Unit 1 and 1X warm air heater in Unit 2. This stays as is and the new supply will be dedicated to the new process boiler.
Option 2: New supply supplies new boiler and i pipe to a suitable point where it can pick up the other appliances using the existing internal pipework. It is then capped as it goes out of the building and the rest back to the old meter is redundant. Pipe is decommission and old meter is taken away.

The reason for option 1 is to provide continuity whilst this is going on and he also has extra capacity for the unknown which he likes. However i keep picking up signals that providers dont like multiple supplies and wish to disconnect the old one once i have connected the pipework together, however i cannot find out why or whats the problem, hence coming here. If its to ensure there is one method to isolate i can do this will electric isolation valves.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

seems stupid paying standing charges on two meters

if it was me i would size the new supply and meter to cope with the whole install and plant

you could get away with a u40 (u65 better)

but hay hop yes you can have two supplies just need to list / label what meter the appliance is fed off also if they have a fire alarm link a solenoid valve into that

 

[bacon_sandwich]

I think option 1 now is, i contact supply and get a new quote for a U65, this will then assure client he has enough capacity for knowns and some extra for unknowns. I can then get a company in to weld up pipe to the new boiler, drop down to 2 inch i can take it from there.
Sound like a plan...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I think option 1 now is, i contact supply and get a new quote for a U65, this will then assure client he has enough capacity for knowns and some extra for unknowns. I can then get a company in to weld up pipe to the new boiler, drop down to 2 inch i can take it from there.
Sound like a plan...

why not press it ?

 

[bacon_sandwich]

comfort zone, lol plus no equipment, i can screw pipes up to 2 inch

 

[ShaunCorbs]

You can hire all the gear

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Ok , will look into it. just sent email off to supplier for U65 see what happens to the price.

 

[Last Plumber]

Ok , will look into it. just sent email off to supplier for U65 see what happens to the price.

You need to calculate the amount needed and that tells you the meter size required.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

You need to calculate the amount needed and that tells you the meter size required.

Deeerrrrrrr, what you on about

 

[firemant]

When I did a stint with NGrid about 3 years ago, it was a definite no-no for 2 supplies to one premises. When encountered, we had to report them, an they were scheduled for street disconnection.

 

[Last Plumber]

Deeerrrrrrr, what you on about

Deeerrrrrr? The Cheek of it!
I'm going off Shaun saying:-

you could get away with a u40 (u65 better)

Along with you not seeming to know the answers yourself.
I have not seen any mention in this thread of the volume of Gas being used so it looks like a guess.

There is no Deeeerrrrr! required here Bacon. I was trying to help because the thread reads like you are new to Commercial.

 

[Last Plumber]

When I did a stint with NGrid about 3 years ago, it was a definite no-no for 2 supplies to one premises. When encountered, we had to report them, an they were scheduled for street disconnection.

I work in plenty of Buildings where there is more than one Meter installation. They have all been installed by Nat Grid.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Deeerrrrrr? The Cheek of it!
I'm going off Shaun saying:-

Along with you not seeming to know the answers yourself.
I have not seen any mention in this thread of the volume of Gas being used so it looks like a guess.

There is no Deeeerrrrr! required here Bacon. I was trying to help because the thread reads like you are new to Commercial.

I took it from the kw of the new boiler off the new meter and added a bit I allowed 30m3/h when the new one I around 250kw

Post 4

 

[Last Plumber]

I took it from the kw of the new boiler off the new meter and added a bit I allowed 30m3/h when the new one I around 250kw

Post 4

The new 250 Kw would work off a U25. That's why I didn't get the U40?
Unless he is adding the other appliances that the existing supply feeds but then he does not say how big the 2 warm air units are or the combi boilers.
You know yourself, a warm air unit can be any size.
It's one thing to guess a combi but not that.

That's the only reason I posted about the Gas use. It did not deserve the deeerrrrrr!.
Why not calculate the requirements accurately?
Why try to apply for an oversized meter?
The process of application asks for the gas use anyway, you can't just apply for whatever meter size you fancy as you know.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

The new 250 Kw would work off a U25. That's why I didn't get the U40?
Unless he is adding the other appliances that the existing supply feeds but then he does not say how big the 2 warm air units are or the combi boilers.
You know yourself, a warm air unit can be any size.
It's one thing to guess a combi but not that.

That's the only reason I posted about the Gas use. It did not deserve the deeerrrrrr!.
Why not calculate the requirements accurately?
Why try to apply for an oversized meter?
The process of application asks for the gas use anyway, you can't just apply for whatever meter size you fancy as you know.

That's my estimation

U16 if sized right and u25 combined into one meter

And that's why I said if the u16 is sized correctly

And yea you can easily loose 65kw - 150ke on one unit

And yea but the next one up is a u65 from a 40 ?

 

[Last Plumber]

That's my estimation

U16 if sized right and u25 combined into one meter

And that's why I said if the u16 is sized correctly

And yea you can easily loose 65kw - 150ke on one unit

And yea but the next one up is a u65 from a 40 ?

Still no reason why it can't be worked out is there?
That would give an answer. The right answer. The only way to do it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Still no reason why it can't be worked out is there?
That would give an answer. The right answer. The only way to do it.

Nope just op didn't supply any figures so had to take a shot in the dark a bit

Yep

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Guys, chill out, my OP was about 2 supplies, i can do the math on meter size and i did, thats when the client then mentioned "additional stuff that i cannot size" after i hit him with the U40 quote. U40 covers his known demand but its at the limit.
The Deeer was all about you thinking i was needing help to size a meter, i dont, thx i needed help on multiple supplies.

 

[firemant]

I work in plenty of Buildings where there is more than one Meter installation. They have all been installed by Nat Grid.

But were they occupied as one premises?

 

[Last Plumber]

But were they occupied as one premises?

Yes they are.
There is even one with two meters side by side. One serving a boiler, the other a kitchen. (Nursing home).
Weird set up I admit! But it’s there.

 

[firemant]

Yes they are.
There is even one with two meters side by side. One serving a boiler, the other a kitchen. (Nursing home).
Weird set up I admit! But it’s there.

Sorry. Misread your previous post. There can be multiple meters but only one supply into one premises.

 

[Last Plumber]

Sorry. Misread your previous post. There can be multiple meters but only one supply into one premises.

Can't remember whether that one did but I know of others that have two separate service pipes. Normally large buildings such as a mill.
One I am working on at the moment has two services and two meters. One to supply two 240 Kw Boilers that I installed and one to supply another Small Boiler in another part of the mill. Not on the same floor though. Both services are on same side of Building.

 

[firemant]

Can't remember whether that one did but I know of others that have two separate service pipes. Normally large buildings such as a mill.
One I am working on at the moment has two services and two meters. One to supply two 240 Kw Boilers that I installed and one to supply another Small Boiler in another part of the mill. Not on the same floor though. Both services are on same side of Building.

Well, I obviously am not going to dispute your experience, but I guarantee that my earlier statement was true in Leicester, 3 years ago.

 

[Last Plumber]

Well, I obviously am not going to dispute your experience, but I guarantee that my earlier statement was true in Leicester, 3 years ago.

I'm not saying you're wrong either. I believe you. 100%.

In this Mill there are no labels mentioning the existence of another service or meter on either of them so if there was a smell of Gas, who would know about the other Meter or ECV? There are over 100 people who use this mill. They should be labelled in my opinion, or not allowed.
I have worked at this Mill for 7 or 8 years and only found out that there was another meter late last year.
The owner rang and asked me to alter the pipe work because The Meter had been changed and the installer of it told him that it should not have a flex on the outlet side.
I knew the Meter was piped rigid in 2 1/2" steel. On arriving, he took me to the other meter, the one I new nothing about.

Surely Nat Grid have records of both Meters? Maybe not. I would not be surprised if they didn't.
I don't know of any regulation that states there should be no second service into a building but that does not mean there isn't!

I am just going off the Buildings I have been in during my working life and what I have come across. I have never looked it up.
I need to dig deeper now!

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Pressure is off, client has accepted U65. He looses a car parking space but otherwise all good. Existing U16 set up will be de-commisioned, which was my preferred option anyway. The existing U16 was too small for all loads on at the same time, pressure was way too high and it was one of those installations where your immediate reaction was jesus who let this one through the net.......lol