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clarky101

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Was in the local Graham's today chatting with the manager & the assistant manager comes over,
" can you help this lady" so I walk over to a women holding part of broken plastic WC ballvalve...
" its broken & leaking how much to fix it" she asks
" if local about £**" says I doing a Jim Bowen
"How much, think I'll leave it"
"no problem, by the way how much where you expecting to pay?"
"£20"
hence the title of this little storey...
 
Reminds me of a phone call I got around 11 PM one evening. "

Her: The pipes in my airing cupboard are making a screaming noise. Please can you come and have a look? I'll give you a tenner for your petrol!

Me: "Ummm no, I don't think so, not for a tenner"

Her "Allright, £20 then"

Me: Puts phone down...
 
People just do not get it do they. They expect to pay nothing for the best job. Just can't understand where this mentality has come from. Everyone is tightening their belts at the moment so why should people trying to earn an honest living be forced to work for nothing. Makes me so angry
 
Went to one job, evening call out, no heat or hot water. Replaced 3A fuse, and left spare in case it blew again, all good and running. Got offered £5.00.
 
Forgot to say, she finished by saying £** !!!!, it's a simple job"
 
I think the problem is they directly relate it to an hourly wage. They think if it takes you 20 mins to fix it then £10 is a decent price as it works out to £30 per hour. They overlook cost of tools, van ,insurance, travelling time amongst many other things.

Worryingly i don't think this will ever disappear
 
Well and they have the other extreme there's all these programs telling us that every tradesmen is always trying to rip you off so they automatically assume that our price however reasonable is expensive. This is why regulation rather than checkatrade and other such sites is the way to go
 
It has to be done properly though not like Gas Safe where its just a money making exercise with no power. I don't think anybody would object to playing regulatory affiliation fees If they felt their trade is being protected and that the unsafe idiots were being forced out
 
It has to be done properly though not like Gas Safe where its just a money making exercise with no power. I don't think anybody would object to playing regulatory affiliation fees If they felt their trade is being protected and that the unsafe idiots were being forced out


I don't know enough about the subject but I think the CIPHE is close to be something like that, i maybe wrong though
 
I don't know enough about the subject but I think the CIPHE is close to be something like that, i maybe wrong though

The problem is that CIPHE is voluntary. In the US, Oz, Germany, France and probably other countries as well it's actually illegal to do plumbing for money unless you're licensed. In France you also spend a few years as an improver, then a journeyman before you get a master plumber's ticket. I think the same in US. The lower levels are actually restricted to what they can do unsupervised.

Britain has too much of a DIY culture where every Tom, Dick & Harry can have a go with no real penalty...
 
All they have to do is grandfather across some rights as they did with the C&G to NVQ a few years back and then take it seriously. Lots of other trades are starting to clamp down. Key with it is that the penalty has to be a deterrent
 
The problem is that CIPHE is voluntary. In the US, Oz, Germany, France and probably other countries as well it's actually illegal to do plumbing for money unless you're licensed. In France you also spend a few years as an improver, then a journeyman before you get a master plumber's ticket. I think the same in US. The lower levels are actually restricted to what they can do unsupervised.

Britain has too much of a DIY culture where every Tom, Dick & Harry can have a go with no real penalty...

I blame the "make do and mend" culture of the war era
A lot of people are still stuck there
 
A rich man had a boat. It was a luxurious cruiser that cost millions of pounds and he used it to promote his standing in the business community to impress his guests and prospective business partners.

“Let’s face it, everyone wants to do business with someone who looks successful”, said the millionaire.

One day, prior to an important business meeting that he was planning on his boat, his engineer approached him and told him that the engine wouldn’t start.

The businessman told the engineer to do whatever it took to get the engine started and the boat seaworthy, because of the importance of the meeting that he was having.

A while later the engineer came back and said that no one he had spoken to could get the engine started.

"Then find someone", said the businessman. "Tell them I’ll pay whatever it costs, but I need the engine to work".

So the engineer phoned everyone he knew and many qualified engineers arrived at the boat equipped with all of the most modern and up to date diagnostic equipment money could buy, but none of them could get the boat to start or identify the fault.

In desperation the businessman went to a small quayside cafe and sat down with a cup of coffee and a local paper to try and think of a solution to his predicament.

Whilst reading the local paper he came across a small advert that said: “Local marine engineer for hire. If your boat won’t start call me. I can fix anything".

Initially the businessman smirked at the advert and nearly dismissed it. He had a highly qualified engineer employed on his boat full time that knew the engine. He couldn’t get the engine to start, and his engineer had brought in some of his peers who were more qualified than him and they couldn’t get it to start. So what chance was there that some local ‘tradesman’, a ‘not known’ no-body, could do it?

However, due to the desperation of the situation he decided to call the number in the ad.

A time was arranged and on time a short, scruffy and unkempt looking guy turned up with a small bag of tools.

The engineer in his neatly pressed and gleaming white overalls looked at the businessman and shook his head in disbelief.

As the local tradesman stepped into the boat he said to the businessman that he hadn’t asked him his price for fixing the fault.

“If you can get the engine to start I’ll pay you whatever your fee is”, said the businessman.

“It’s £10,000,” said the scruffy engineer.

The businessman said ok, somewhat sure that his money was safe in that this scruffy unkempt local guy would have no chance in fixing the fault and getting the engine to start, especially when so many highly qualified engineers had already failed.

The local guy went below, quickly followed by the businessman and his engineer. He walked around the engine compartment touching and feeling various pipes and engine parts. He put a listening device to some parts of the machinery and eventually he said he had found the fault and could fix it.

He then took a small hammer out of his bag and hit one of the pipes attached to the engine and the engine started straight way.

The businessman was completely shocked, as was his engineer, and stood there in complete disbelief at what he had just witnessed.

Then the local guy took out a pen and a small notepad and write his invoice, which said, 'for fixing the fault and getting the engine to start: £10,000' as agreed'.

The businessman, not wanting to look as if he had been duped asked the local guy to give him an invoice with a breakdown of exactly how he was justifying his £10,000 fee.

The local guy took out his notepad once more and duly wrote:

'For hitting the pipe with the hammer: £5.00.
For having the information, knowledge and experience of knowing what to hit, exactly where to hit it and with what degree of force: £9,995.00.'

The moral of the story is that the most powerful tool in the world is information and as Benjamin Disraeli once wrote: “As a general rule, the most successful man in life is the man who has the best information.”
 
I think the problem is they directly relate it to an hourly wage. They think if it takes you 20 mins to fix it then £10 is a decent price as it works out to £30 per hour. They overlook cost of tools, van ,insurance, travelling time amongst many other things.

Worryingly i don't think this will ever disappear

The solution is in our control. If a forum such as this was to make public recommended, "TRADE" hourly rates, each of us could reference these rates with a percentage adjustment to suit individual circumstances. This is already done by the Plant Hire Association and the public are familiar with products marketed as RRP. less (,,,)%.
"Call out charges," would be better represented as:- travel time to and from venue together with a minimum time in attendance.
Something simple as 30 minutes travel each way plus 30 minutes or part thereof in attendance. all at £50.00 per half hour, gives a basic of £150.00.
Quoting, "TRADE" rates less 40% returns £90.00 and the caller is happy to have a discount.
Xmas and out of hours attendance could be quoted as "TRADE" plus(...)%.
The internet would allow easy public access to "TRADE" rates so no one could claim to be unaware of the costs.
 
How much to come out tonight to pull my toilet out? I'll give you 70...80! Alright a pound!!!
 
Thing is though there's DIY and there's DIY. Some people are not above hacking away at their house to achieve what they want with no thought for safety or future issues. Then you also have the "I can do anything I want it's my house" brigade who dabble with gas, oil, put in an open fire themselves that sort of thing. It might not be this DIYer that bears the brunt of the previous persons construction inadequacies it could be their neighbours when their wall is blown away by an unvented explosion and as we all know insurance is out the window.when someone DIYs such dangerous appliances. DIY to me is putting up Flat pack furniture or hanging a shelf larger jobs should be left to the pros and this is where regulation is required
 
Thing is though there's DIY and there's DIY. Some people are not above hacking away at their house to achieve what they want with no thought for safety or future issues. Then you also have the "I can do anything I want it's my house" brigade who dabble with gas, oil, put in an open fire themselves that sort of thing. It might not be this DIYer that bears the brunt of the previous persons construction inadequacies it could be their neighbours when their wall is blown away by an unvented explosion and as we all know insurance is out the window.when someone DIYs such dangerous appliances. DIY to me is putting up Flat pack furniture or hanging a shelf larger jobs should be left to the pros and this is where regulation is required

I see what you mean, but there are laws about gas and unvented cylinders for safety reasons due to explosions ect. Then again I've known DIYers who've bashed out much better jobs than people I've worked with!
 
Yes but the point is that people still do DIY gas work and work on unvented cylinders when they shouldn't be there is no deterrent because the powers that be are toothless
 
What's wrong with DIY? Every 'trade' will have people who do it themselves, but there's plenty of people who will pay for someone to do the job.

I see what you mean, but there are laws about gas and unvented cylinders for safety reasons due to explosions ect. Then again I've known DIYers who've bashed out much better jobs than people I've worked with!

Nothing at all wrong with DIY within limits.

I've never paid a carpenter, or painter & decorator in my life. I'd never criticise someone for doing a bit of water pipework or fitting their own taps. Maybe laugh if they flooded the kitchen, but none of that is life-threatening.

It's as Riley says, when that attitude of "My home is my castle, I'll do what I like and no meddling bureaucrat will stop me" strays into gas, unvented, soil, etc. that DIY work should be punished with a hefty fine. Even removing walls etc without expert supervision. My parents' house needed severe remedial work because the pratt next door (downhill on a steep hill, terraced houses) removed a load-bearing wall and their house started subsiding...

We need to educate the general public as to where the boundaries are. A few well-publicised prosecutions and and heavy penalties would start the attitude change. The laws are there already, enforcement isn't..
 
Regulation based on safety, backed by enforcement, has respect and general acceptance. Protection against DIY disasters would dilute this respect, especially if driven by trade protection sentiments.
Making plumbing a protected trade would make people think changing a tap washer was equivalent to changing a gas valve.
Other business/trades would certainly ride on the tail. Some like the motor trade could forward reasoned argument. Insurance companies would then not be slow to invalidate claims when spark plugs were changed by the owner.
 
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Regulation based on safety, backed by enforcement, has respect and general acceptance. Protection against DIY disasters would dilute this respect, especially if driven by trade protection sentiments.
Making plumbing a protected trade would make people think changing a tap washer was equivalent to changing a gas valve.
Other business/trades would certainly ride on the tail. Some like the motor trade could forward reasoned argument. Insurance companies would then not be slow to invalidate claims when spark plugs were changed by the owner.

I don't think anyone is suggesting going up those extremes Joni. There just needs to be a clear distinction between potentially dangerous work, and that which would only cause inconvenience or financial loss.

Flood your own house, or the flat below, and insurance pays, the culprit's premiums go up, and that's that. Work on gas, unvented or soil/sewage and the book gets thrown at you.

To take your car example, changing spark plugs won't kill anyone. Make a mess of your brakes and insurance would rightly deny the claim, send you'd get done for causing an accident by having an unsafe vehicle.
 
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With all talk of emission control it would not be long before any work on car engine, including spark plugs would require an exhaust gas analyser. Then the motor trade would campaign for sale of brake pads etc. to be restricted to approved garages. The result would be a mass of regulatory bodies and personnel. All paid for by the few of us trying to make a living doing something useful. Regulation is necessary but HSE based, not vested interests.
 
Agreed but at the same at the moment I am getting sick of being undercut by unqualified numpties and nobody will protect our skills by just turning a blind eye to the DIY heroes who can't see that they're doing wrong
 
think it should go like the us a bit got to get permits to work/ licensed contractors etc but then its more paperwork for us,

but it should cut down on a fair bit
 
With the greatest respect Joni that's a straw man. I don't hear anyone calling for regulation other than on safety grounds.

Everyone will use safety to boost their argument. Road Traffic Death/ Brake Pads can be linked in public perception more effectively, than deaths from plumbing.
A major problem is competition from those who avoid tax. Being registered for VAT @20% also means pricing certain work is futile. The Construction Design and Management rules put responsibility not only on the contractor but also on client. Extend this to include householders paying for the work and both gas safe and tax avoidance would be better policed.
 
I often used to wonder what would happen if HMRC and Trading Standards set up outside Wickes, toolstation, screwfix, et al and asked every so called Tradesman for their details, PLI, etc. All those jokers Trading out of the family hatch back, etc.
 
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