Gas Safe Inspection

[Ivor Bates]

Ok I used a registered Gsr sub-contractor to install a boiler, everything seemed to be fine. Ten months later owner of property calls saying the installation is faulty, I then visit the property to find out what the problem is, two faults are found one with the condense waste pipe left dangling in mid air, the other with the safety discharge pipe. I then email the installer to ask him to return to rectify the work, he ignores the email, so 7 days later I send another saying if he does not contact me I will report him to Gas Safe, lo and behold within 30 minutes he replies apologising saying he's busy working in Holland and wont be back till Christmas. I replied back saying that him being in Holland does not alter the fact that he is responsible for the installation as he has been paid for it as a sub-contractor, whether he comes back or uses a freind to sort this job out is up to him, but he needs to deal with it. I then gave him another 7 days to deal with this otherwise I told him I would report the issue to Gas Safe. His reply to this was Ok report me to Gas Safe. Well in the end I did report him via their online complaint form. The inspection took place last Monday, I was unaware that it was taking place, he was informed and decided to sit outside and refused to go into the property. The inspector said although there are installation faults, he the installer was not at fault because he the installer put my details in the log book and sent him on his way. Today I have recieved the inspection report from Gas Safe saying that I'm responsible for the faulty work even though I never did a thing apart from doing the original quote. Someone please tell me how this can be right? It dosen't make the slightest bit of sense. I have just telephoned Gas Safe and it didn't make much sense to them either....

 

[Barry98]

ask to meet the inspector how can you as anon gsr engineer know what should and shouldn't be done ? to me it sounds like fraud if hes put your details on the form

 

[nysk2008]

I know its not your fault mate and you didnt carry out the install but could you just not have just sorted it and not use him again? Would have been easier in the long run. In saying this it should have been done right in the first place and I agree with what your saying. Gas safe arnt asways the most helpful people in the world

 

[Barry98]

wheres it at ivor

 

[Ivor Bates]

I know its not your fault mate and you didnt carry out the install but could you just not have just sorted it and not use him again? Would have been easier in the long run. In saying this it should have been done right in the first place and I agree with what your saying. Gas safe arnt asways the most helpful people in the world

You don't buy a dog and and bark yourself. The sub-contractor was paid £400 to do a straightforward boiler change, It was his responsibilty to install it correctly and commission it. It was not for me to go back nearly a year later and spend half a day or whatever time it takes to rectify his poor workmanship at my expense.

 

[Ivor Bates]

wheres it at ivor

Bow...East London

 

[Barry98]

id be getting legal advice , dont understand gas safe would love to see the full report

 

[Ivor Bates]

It seems to me that if a registered installer writes any name or business details in the log book other than their own, it excludes them from the responsibility of the installation. I have asked that the inspector to call me tomorrow.

 

[Barry98]

let us know what happens please , seems very queer to me . if thats the case why are we paying reg fees i may aswell get my mate daz the plumber let me put his name details on job sheets.

did he out your dertails in the bench mark cert ?

 

[jase158]

Hate to blow your trumpet as such, but I watched something with that dominic little wood about consumer rights and apparently the Contractor is responsible for all sub-contractors work and as the contractor it is your responsibility to ensure the work is up to standard. seems wrong but really made me think when I heard it. If i can't do it then they have to find there own proffessionals, I never offer any sub contracting work to anyone any more.

 

[jase158]

And theoretically he has done right, If he left his details, he might as well of left a business card with his own details telling the customer to ring him if they get any problems.

if you are taking money off the top of what you paid him, then you should take the responsibility for it as well. If somebody is working for you then they use your business name and your details.

However he should of done the work properly in the first place and should of been kind enough to go back for free however if you had shouted at me like that and threatened me, I would really of thought wether I would of gone back for free or not.

 

[Barry98]

fair points but at the end of the day how can a NON qualified engineer be responsible for the work a COMPETENT engineer should of done

 

[jase158]

yeah that is true, I am assuming the contractor is a gas engineer that has passed the work on.

 

[Barry98]

i dont think so in this case but having though about your comments its defo a iffy one

 

[Ray Stafford]

I think that two issues are being mixed up here.

Ivor - you took the money from the householder, so you have a contractual obligation to put the fault right.

Your relationship with the subbie is a separate contract. You could certainly sue him for breaching that contract - whether that would be worth your time and effort for £400, only you can know. What you have tried to do (not unreasonably in my view) is use the Gassafe issue as leverage to enforce that contract. He called you on that, and it looks like they won't help. Thats another issue - they may of course have PRIVATELY rucked him for filling in your details in the book. Its a while since I saw one - doesn't it have the GSR number on the paperwork?

What doesn't exist here is a contract between the householder and your subbie. It doesn't seem right, but I think you are stuck with this one, unless you can be bothered to sue him.

 

[Barry98]

I think that two issues are being mixed up here.

Ivor - you took the money from the householder, so you have a contractual obligation to put the fault right.

Your relationship with the subbie is a separate contract. You could certainly sue him for breaching that contract - whether that would be worth your time and effort for £400, only you can know. What you have tried to do (not unreasonably in my view) is use the Gassafe issue as leverage to enforce that contract. He called you on that, and it looks like they won't help. Thats another issue - they may of course have PRIVATELY rucked him for filling in your details in the book. Its a while since I saw one - doesn't it have the GSR number on the paperwork?

What doesn't exist here is a contract between the householder and your subbie. It doesn't seem right, but I think you are stuck with this one, unless you can be bothered to sue him.

good points

 

[jase158]

yeah, wish I could explain it that well..

 

[stevetheplumber]

i must remeber that one

 

[stevetheplumber]

personally when ever ive subbed out work ive always inspected it before making payment particularly when it was a contractor i wasnt familiar with looking at it from that perspective you could say you've neglected your duties
ive had the same outlook from builders who while taking the lions share of the money want to do the lambs share of the work

 

[stevetheplumber]

op must be gas safe if his details have gone in the book

 

[stevetheplumber]

out of interest ivor was that 400 labour only or did the fitter have to supply matierials ?

 

[Ray Stafford]

if the op isnt gassafe why is he allowed to make a contract to supply and fit a gas appliance

Same reason that anyone can contract with anyone to do almost anything.

When you go on holiday, you have a contract with a travel company - not the pilot of the plane - but you expect the travel firm to book you on an airline who employs qualified pilots. If you have private health insurance, the insurance company isn't a doctor.

The contract for provision of the service is separate from the competence of the operative that delivers it.

Think about the builder contracting to build the Olympic venue. Contract exists between builder and government for the whole stadium. The builder then subs out hundred of contracts to people like structural steelwork engineers, electricians, plumbers, concreters etc etc. They in turn either sub-contract or directly employ all the people who hold the relevant qualications to do the actual work.

There is no way that a single builder could possibly have all the relevant qualifications. His committment in his head-contract is that he will use qualified subbies for each part of the contract.

Ivors job is the same, just on a much smaller scale.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Is thay the same boiler change that u posted abou that took fitter 3 working days and it was not done ! Here is my self well expirienced changing boilera and steve the plumber who is in n london , should you get stack in the futer you can call any of us and we will do 100% job

 

[tamz]

op must be gas safe if his details have gone in the book

I'd think so too.

 

[stevetheplumber]

that was why i asked if the fitter supplied anything a few trvs a wireless room stat and a new gas run to bring the job spec probably wouldnt leave you with much for your day out of £400 if yor not bringing the jobs up to spec then id sign it in your name

 

[REDSAW]

i may have the wrong person here?.

did you not state that your gas subbys are not allowed to leave their details with the customer and any future work shall be yours?.
therefore the subby is working directly for you not the customer so its your issue

also dont think you need to be gsr to sort a bit of plastic out.imo

by the way, are oyu saying the guy who cant get back to the uk untill xmas, came back for the inspection?.

 

[tamz]

Any subbing i've ever done for someone who is gas safe, eg to help out a mate or bigger companies, it is my name and card number but their details and reg number that go in the book. It is their job and their responsibility.
If they are not gs, builders developers etc, it is mine that goes in but the customers are well aware it is my responsibility. The builder or whoever only acts as an intermediary and adds his uplift whatever that may be. I take my agreed (with them) price and they charge whatever they like.
I wouldn't be fitting a boiler for £400 even if i supplied nothing except diesel but everyone to their own thing.

 

[Ivor Bates]

I don't have a problem or issue about my contract with my customer none whatsoever and it will be put right this week. I went this route with the sub-contractor to give him the opportunity to put things right at his expense and time. No he did not supply any materials everything was delivered onsite to him. He was employed as a sub-contractor, it was made perfectly clear in the advert for sub-contractors that they had their own GSR number, his details were then checked against the database held with Gas Safe. This confirmed he was registered I also have copies of his ACS and other documents veryfying that he was deemed to be a competent person. The log book in this case a Worcester 30CDi asks the question. Who commissioned the boiler and that persons registration number. It then asks for the company name and address. You cannot use another business GSR number unless that business has paid Gas Safe for you to be on their registration number, this is why companys such as BG do not allow it's employees to do private work on their registration number, so it becomes illegal. The sub-contractor can only work legally on his own registration number, so his details must be entered into the log book if he installed the boiler, this dosent mean that he guarantees the boiler or any of the fixtures, it just means that he is signing to say he has installed and commissioned the boiler correctly.
Before making any decissions I will be speaking to the inspector tomorrow, but regardless of what is said, knowing me I will probably take the sub-contractor to court to cover the labour costs after all he has been paid / contracted to install a boiler correctly.

 

[Ivor Bates]

i may have the wrong person here?.

did you not state that your gas subbys are not allowed to leave their details with the customer and any future work shall be yours?.
therefore the subby is working directly for you not the customer so its your issue

also dont think you need to be gsr to sort a bit of plastic out.imo

by the way, are oyu saying the guy who cant get back to the uk untill xmas, came back for the inspection?.

He said he was working in Holland, I automatically thought he was talking twaddle and making excuses which I now know to be the case as one of the electricians I use sat outside his house and watched him go to work in fact he followed him from Hertfordshire to London. Had he been upfront said he was really busy, apologised the chances are I would have left it at that. But because he tried to avoid the first email and then lied, I will persue him...

 

[stevetheplumber]

all comes down to pay peanuts get monkies

 

[REDSAW]

i may have the wrong person here?.

did you not state that your gas subbys are not allowed to leave their details with the customer and any future work shall be yours?.
therefore the subby is working directly for you not the customer so its your issue

also dont think you need to be gsr to sort a bit of plastic out.imo

by the way, are oyu saying the guy who cant get back to the uk untill xmas, came back for the inspection?.

lol.lol

responding to the wrong thread hahaha!.

still a point there somewhere though.

perhaps 14months a long time but you had bought situation to him for correction if not to cover his own bum and he failed to respond.
going to court for £80-100 is your risk if you want to spend xxxxxx more than its worth but dont hold your breath

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I dont belive it .......to make report to gas safe and take plumber to cort for
not funished prv and condense pipe .......OMG
I might be wrong but you could have done the work in 30min and save all this !!!!!

 

[Ivor Bates]

I dont belive it .......to make report to gas safe and take plumber to cort for
not funished prv and condense pipe .......OMG
I might be wrong but you could have done the work in 30min and save all this !!!!!

it is not just 30 minutes, secondly he should not have been using my details, thirdly he should not have lied, fourthly he should have done it correctly from the outset...

 

[PowerFlusher2]

I know its not your fault mate and you didnt carry out the install but could you just not have just sorted it and not use him again? Would have been easier in the long run. In saying this it should have been done right in the first place and I agree with what your saying. Gas safe arnt asways the most helpful people in the world

You are the master of understatement, mysk2008!

 

[PowerFlusher2]

Same reason that anyone can contract with anyone to do almost anything.

When you go on holiday, you have a contract with a travel company - not the pilot of the plane - but you expect the travel firm to book you on an airline who employs qualified pilots. If you have private health insurance, the insurance company isn't a doctor.

The contract for provision of the service is separate from the competence of the operative that delivers it.

Think about the builder contracting to build the Olympic venue. Contract exists between builder and government for the whole stadium. The builder then subs out hundred of contracts to people like structural steelwork engineers, electricians, plumbers, concreters etc etc. They in turn either sub-contract or directly employ all the people who hold the relevant qualications to do the actual work.

There is no way that a single builder could possibly have all the relevant qualifications. His committment in his head-contract is that he will use qualified subbies for each part of the contract.

Ivors job is the same, just on a much smaller scale.

I know I'm repeating myself but I will remind you that I posted recently, following a discussion with Gas Safe Register, that I was told that the requirement is for anybody who installs or works on gas installations to be registered with Gas Safe; there is nowhere that it says that Gas Safe Register is obliged to make sure their registered engineer does the job properly and they have 'no legal entitlement to question how well or how badly anyone on the Register does the job'. It has often been stated on here that Gas Safe Register is going to do absolutely nothing to risk the money which you guys have to hand over to be able to work legally. The more people they knock off the register the more money they lose!