Combi boiler for a 4 bathroom house - Advice please

[timmyjane]

Problem. I want to convert my loft, huge cold water tank in loft and hot tank where I need to put stairs. I need 4 showers. Good water pressure to the house but not tested, comes out so forcefully in kitchen that the stop tap needed turning down a lot.

Current system not good enough for 2 showers.

A combi system I have seen seems to give a flow rate of 45 litres a minute at 60C, the ACV Heatmaster 85 Combi condensing boiler, it could go in a downstairs cupboard.

Anyone have this system in, or knows how much it is.

Are there any alternatives more widely available (worried about servicing), looked at Glow worm ultra power 100/170 sx, has a good flow rate of 36 litres a minute but at 35C, is there anything else out there, think the ACV may be very costly.

Advice very appreciated.

​

 

[timmyjane]

Reason I asked as anyone that had been recommended to me I had to wait a couple of months for installation (and nearly two weeks for an initial visit), as they seemed to have contract work coming out of their ears. Same for Electrician (who was a friend so fitted me in in spare time). Carpenter was a little quicker, but feeling I got was construction and trade industries really picking up. Is it generally not like this nationwide.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hi Timmyjane

There are a couple of issues.

The first is that "re-training" isn't as easy as it sounds.There are plenty of training providers that will take several grand of your husbands redundancy money, in exchange for a 6, 8 or 10 week course.

At the end of that course, he will not be a plumber. He will be a redundant marketing executive who has been on a 10 week plumbing course, in exactly the same way that a plumber going on a 10 week marketing course is still a plumber, not a marketing executive.

It takes between 5 and 10 years or varied training and experience to become a really good plumber. Longer if you have long periods doing the same, repetitive thing. The people that are in most demand, and getting the recommends, will have long waiting lists, but thats because they have put in the decades to get that good.

Some "fast track" plumbers do eventually make it to being excellent tradesmen - indeed there are several on this board. But I bet for every 10 that start, only one makes it to becoming a skilled tradesman. Probably another 2 bodge along at varying levels of incompetence for a year or so, and 7 never ever get paid work as plumbers.

Secondly, there is no shortage of wannabe plumbers. There is a huge backlog of people like your husband, who have done a course, and as others have mentioned, will post on this board offering to work for free to gain experience. Can hubby afford to do that? And at the risk of getting political, there is no shortage of east european plumbers of varying quality who will take up any upturn in demand.

 

[Aquazone]

In regards to waiting weeks for people to come and give you a quote, the best people with masses of experience, huge amounts of knowledge, pride in their work and good customer service will always be busy. It is getting to this point which is challenging for someone who wants to retrain.

You need to find a good plumber/heating engineer, persuade them to take you an as an apprentice, then 5 years later you might have enough knowledge to go on your own, but then you have to build up customer base, another 5-10 years. Your husband would be pushing 60 before he started seeing the fruits of his labour.

If you wanted a tap changing, there will be people who will do it same day for 30 quid. The market is saturated for the low skill jobs, but the job you had done wouldn't (or shouldn't) be undertaken by a 10 week fast track plumber.

I retrained myself but I was 25, didn't have a family, and had no choice as I needed to do something, and just happened to fall into this. That was 10 years ago, and still have bad days.

 

[rpm]

Plasterer and tiler?

 

[timmyjane]

Hi Ray

He is very practical and desperate to get out of the office environment and was thinking more along the lines of one years full time intensive training (which we could afford to do as insurance for redundancy should kick in) and this is possibly the only time in his life he will have such an opportunity to retrain, otherwise its back to stuffy office. Followed by a couple of years of on the job training. With a long view to doing contract work self employed afterwards (as he has the business, marketing and website specialist knowledge to hopefully drive people his way until recommends came in). It seems the work is out there from what you are saying if you are half decent.

Firstly what top notch examinations/courses would you recommend that employers might want.
Secondly - if really dedicated and quick thinker/learner would 3 years be enough time to afford a decent living.
Thirdly - Would age be a real block against outfits taking him on for a couple of years as apprentice/plumbers mate after completion of examinations.

Looked at Electrical work but general stuff on web suggests its better to train as plumber/gas engineer than electrician for numerous reasons.

Still a no go?

 

[timmyjane]

Plasterer and tiler?

Plasterer, Tiler, Bricklayer all been suggested - what daily rate for this, anyone know.

 

[rpm]

Plasterer, Tiler, Bricklayer all been suggested - what daily rate for this, anyone know.

Nobody said tiler that I can see , a good plasterer and kitchen, bathroom wall & floor tiler can earn good money.

 

[Chalked]

Hi Guys

I originally posted asking about what boiler system to put in for a 4/5 bed home wishing to achieve 3 showers running concurrently without loss of pressure nor hot water. Looked into all sorts and got plenty of advice, one option I had found was a semi commercial combi with storage tank (was the bees knees), and am sure this would have done the job, however turned out to be mega bucks.

I was asked to post what option I went for and can thoroughly recommend: -

Worcester Greenstar system boiler with megaflow cylinder, also upgraded to 22/25 mm water supply to provide the flow rate needed. This all works beautifully, no loss of pressure, in fact the force that comes out of our old bath/shower unit is so high I really need to replace it with a fixed head so it does not thrash about. Plenty of hot water plenty of pressure and a reasonable price. Its all in the loft so no loss of space. In fact removal of the old gravity fed system has given me loads more space in the ensuite and loft.

On another matter, hubby just been made redundant and is thinking about retraining, hes 42, previously in Marketing but has great practical and mathematical skills. What could he earn as a plumber/heating engineer and are there any real gaps in the market if he wanted to specialise in a particular area?

How long was he In the marketing job? Did he progress through the years, learning parts of the job. Then getting better paid for more knowledge/ experience.
It's basically the same with plumbing except dirtier and colder!
forget courses. Too much money and no guarantee of work.
forget shadowing someone . Your not wanted, ad as soon as you think you know enough, you will be off and robbing their jobs.
the only people I know that have transitioned well are very good diy'ers that have over the years done their own bathroom, etc.
also you need an interest, not just a means to earn.

my wife is in charge of a marketing department. She earns more than me for 20% less hours. And she gets a great pension and good holidays.

all the best in your quest.

 

[SimonG]

All have to be trained, gain experience and find a market. Even after all that you need to grow a customer base.

What you paying the bills in the meantime with. Plenty of people willing to work for nothing!

Have a search through the forum, hundreds of threads on the same topic.

 

[kay-jay]

He could attain every qualification going but the sad truth is that no one will employ him until he has at least 5 years experience.
The only realistic future for your husband will be as a self employed plumber. And even then there is no way he will be capable of doing the kind of installation you had to wait for.
Realistically he will be doing bathrooms, plumbing maintenance and standard boiler swaps.

Is this enough to earn a living wage? Sure but its not nailed on certainty.
Look in the paper or the yellow pages and see just how many competitors there are in your area that are already well established.

 

[timmyjane]

He could attain every qualification going but the sad truth is that no one will employ him until he has at least 5 years experience.
The only realistic future for your husband will be as a self employed plumber. And even then there is no way he will be capable of doing the kind of installation you had to wait for.
Realistically he will be doing bathrooms, plumbing maintenance and standard boiler swaps.

Is this enough to earn a living wage? Sure but its not nailed on certainty.
Look in the paper or the yellow pages and see just how many competitors there are in your area that are already well established.

Thanks useful advice Kay Jay - it is good to know what the reality may be.

With regard to other comments - yes marketing does probably pay more, but didnt whistle whilst he worked, does at home doing DIY. He has done loads in our house and accepting a lower annual salary acceptable if happier.

As for robbing jobs (bit rough) but get this may be a realistic thought process for many employers - working in accountancy I know as soon as people are fully qualified they can and often do walk away with clients if without morals, maybe a rough deal for the employer, its the way of most industries I imagine.

Hopefully employer makes a profit from work done or at least breaks even by paying low salary in exchange for a good dedicated person who is desperate to learn in the two to three years they have been there. And has option when training suffice to realise the potential and offer something more with a view to a long term benefit. Which is what most accountancy practices would do if someone proved to be excellent as a result of natural talent, hard work and good training. Think both parties benefit if handled right and neither needs to lose out.

Get what most are saying 5 years plus to be any where near good enough to make an a decent living, if he can find an employer after exams - so thanks for all advice, love this forum, always been useful, at least know the reality if he chooses this path.

 

[kay-jay]

The point is that even with all the quals available finding someone to give him a job will be nigh on impossible.
Prospective employers value experience far more than qualifications.
Unfortunately its a vicious circle.

Good luck with whatever decision is made.[emoji3]

 

[SimonG]

Doing diy at home isnt out in the real world earning a crust. Be careful and good luck.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Hi Ray

He is very practical and desperate to get out of the office environment and was thinking more along the lines of one years full time intensive training (which we could afford to do as insurance for redundancy should kick in) and this is possibly the only time in his life he will have such an opportunity to retrain, otherwise its back to stuffy office. Followed by a couple of years of on the job training. With a long view to doing contract work self employed afterwards (as he has the business, marketing and website specialist knowledge to hopefully drive people his way until recommends came in). It seems the work is out there from what you are saying if you are half decent.

Firstly what top notch examinations/courses would you recommend that employers might want.
Secondly - if really dedicated and quick thinker/learner would 3 years be enough time to afford a decent living.
Thirdly - Would age be a real block against outfits taking him on for a couple of years as apprentice/plumbers mate after completion of examinations.

Looked at Electrical work but general stuff on web suggests its better to train as plumber/gas engineer than electrician for numerous reasons.

Still a no go?

Certainly a year to train is better than a few weeks. However, the sad fact is that he will still struggle to find work - most employers would rather take on a 19 or 20 yr old in that situation than a mature adult.

There are others on here who can advise better than me on exactly which course.

They say it takes 10,000 of hours to become expert at anything. 40hrs per week x 48 weeks per year = 5 years to get 10,000 hours. In reality, probably closer to 10 years, by the time you take out the quiet weeks, the time spent waiting for gear or down at the merchant, driving to site or doing other trades to turn a few quid.

I'm not saying its impossible. Just very, very difficult. And just when he gets good at it, his knees and/or back may give out - an occupational hazard of the game.

My suggestion would be to keep looking for that marketing job, and do an evening course to see if the enthusiasm lasts.

 

[Millsy 82]

As has been said there are plenty of people coming into plumbing thinking there is plenty of work and good money to be made thanks to all the newspapers saying all plumbers are on £70-80k, in reality unless your a good gas engineer or well established you will be nearer £15-20k. Don't get me wrong there are plumbers out there who probably are earning mega money some good some bad but it will take time.

I have been in the trade for 16 years and I've worked for many companies and around the area and generally pay was rubbish until you got a good name because people will always work for less, I recently moved to a different area and with 16 years experience gas/oil/lpg qualified and I only got offered £22k so I decided to go self employed. As I have no name down here I'm lucky if I earn £100-£150 a week but steadily getting busier (I don't mind so much at the moment as I'm enjoying having more hours off and my outgoings are £200 a month).

The work is dirty/ heavy and awkward at the age of 32 my knees are shot even though I wear knee pads. Even if you do service/maintenance you still have to take boilers off the wall from time to time and they are never in a nice easy position.

If I had my time again I would of trained as a sparky (I will probably get banned now for saying that) the work isn't as heavy and good ones are few and far between but again there is plenty of useless ones.

Tilers/plasterers/decorators are all on good money (tilers down here £40per sq meter) and people want them as they make the house look good.