Central heating pipes 'banging/knocking'

[callum84]

Hi,

I am looking for some guidance regarding a problem that has developed with my central heating system.

A couple of days ago, the pipework started banging/knocking when the heating was going on and when it is cooling down, this banging can vary from a large thud to a series of regular bangs, the later usually when cooling down which then becomes less and less frequent until it stops - this has just started to happen, we have had the property for 3 weeks and was working with no banging etc until around 3 days ago.

Its an alpha combi boiler with radiators/heated towel radiators the radiators have thermostatic control valves (apart from one which doesnt)

I was wondering if anyone had a view/suggestion on what this could be before I have to call out a plumber/CH engineer.

I have looked online at things like, boiler pressure, pipes not properly clipped, air trap?!? All very confusing to me to be honest.

The boiler was installed in Jan 2011, and has a 5 year guarantee, I am unsure if new pipework would have been installed at the same point.

The crawl space sub floor is only approx 500mm so I am hoping it can be rectified without having to lift carpets etc, especially as some floors are tiled.

Regards,

Callum

 

[GrahamM]

I assume you have checked system pressure and have bled all radiators.

Open up all thermostatic radiator valves (TRV's) fully and try that.

 

[callum84]

Thanks GrahamM.

I am going home tonight to bleed the radiators, the banging seems to be situated at the opposite end of my property to where the boiler is, I think I will bleed those radiators first??

If a TRV in say a bedroom is set less than the bedroom next to it, can that cause issues??

 

[callum84]

Just bled radiators, only water came out no air, boiler pressure sitting at 0.75 bar?? Slightly below what it should be I think? Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[P J F PLUMBING]

Call your gsr engineer he will sort it for you

 

[callum84]

Is the low pressure contributing to the noise in your opinion?

I apologise if this is a basic question, but should rads heat from top to bottom or bottom to top?

The rad in the room I think most of the noise is in heated from the top an generally worked down the rad to the bottom? Is this normal?

 

[glenno1]

Bottom to top(heat rises)

 

[GQuigley67]

is it top entry TRVs ?

 

[GrahamM]

Top system pressure upto 1-1.5 bar, open up all TRV's fully & run system to temperature.
Did you try this?

 

[jase158]

possible solutions

1. radiator valves are not shutting properly and causing banging, try taking head off and making sure valve is loose
2. Pipes need clipping down, try to find exactly where noise is coming from and check under floor for loose pipes
3. noise reducer can help get rid of noises, this can be added to system via tank in loft or radiator
4. Powerflush, system might be dirt ridden and banging

Finnaly try to think of anything that you have done in last few days, turning heating on? turned radiator valve off? pressed any buttons

 

[callum84]

No it is TRVs at the bottom of the radiator.

Havnt tried to change the pressure, really wouldn't know where to start I am afraid. I hav bitten the bullet and arranged a service for Friday (boiler was installed jan 2011 and has not been service yet.

Nothing different last few days jase158, tried system again tonight, but set boiler to a lower temperature, the noises didn't seem to be as bad although were still apparent?

 

[GQuigley67]

you need to let engineer know of this problem as it wont be picked up on a service

 

[phpaul]

Is the low pressure contributing to the noise in your opinion?

I apologise if this is a basic question, but should rads heat from top to bottom or bottom to top?

The rad in the room I think most of the noise is in heated from the top an generally worked down the rad to the bottom? Is this normal?

no its not the flow direction to the trv sounds wrong ask ur gsr guy to check it out . get the pros in its not worth ****ing about with .

 

[callum84]

I will highlight the noise issue etc yes, i explained it on the phone to another guy when booked service(not sure if was qualified) they said it could be 'normal' expansion/contraction with the pipe work, it just sounds to 'rough' to be normal in my humble opinion, but we will see.

I just hope that it doesn't mean lifting all the floor finishes to get a look at the pipe work, would be a hell of an amount I work to be honest ie lifting plywood/hard wood flooring (kitchen) laminate (hall) and carpets (bedrooms) but I suppose if needs must, or maybe the plumber will have some tricks of the trade to dingoes any issue.

Thanks for the info guys, much appreciated, great forum!!

 

[GQuigley67]

does it happen when you open the hot tap ?

 

[callum84]

No issues with the hot tap (tempting fate saying that!) just seems to be the pipe work/rad(s) at the opposite end of the bungalow from the boiler. Especially apparent in the bedroom where the rad heats up from top to bottom. (TRVs at bottom) I have read conflicting views on if this is the rad heating up properly or not.

 

[GrahamM]

The rads heating from top to bottom is normal.

Your issue I believe is either:
1. pressure/air related
2. TRV's on wrong end
3. Pipes poorly secured
4. Blockage/restriction

or a combination of above.

 

[jollygasman]

phpaul's reply sounds most likely.The next time you hear it go to the rad your hearing most noise and turn the trv fully off.Let us know if this stops the noise.

 

[callum84]

Thanks guys, I will try turning the TRV off in the offending area as suggested.

GrahamM, can you explain abit further when you say TRVs on the wrong end?

The 4 suggestions you gave, would they just 'suddenly happen' or get worse so to speak? Its just that as far as I can remember last week there was not any issues or they were less apparent, it seems to have got worse all of a sudden?

 

[callum84]

Speaking to a guy at work, he said he had similar issues but it was because he had renewed the floor finish in his kitchen, to laminate, and that the new laminate was cut too tight round the central heating pipes that come from the wall mounted boiler, and that was causing an issue of noise with the pipes at the other end of his property.

I dont really know if this is similar in my opinion, as would seen strange the floor finish resting against the CH pipes before they go under the floor could cause pipework noise at the other end of the building.

I would have thought if it was an issue, it would be localised to the area the new flooring had been put down in, but maybe not?

I havnt put down a new floor but just thought I would throw that idea in and see what you guys thought? Or if he was maybe pulling my leg so to speak!

 

[petercj]

Have you tried exorcism?

 

[callum84]

Next on the list mate, are you offering to perform it? :crazy:

 

[phpaul]

Thanks guys, I will try turning the TRV off in the offending area as suggested.

GrahamM, can you explain abit further when you say TRVs on the wrong end?

The 4 suggestions you gave, would they just 'suddenly happen' or get worse so to speak? Its just that as far as I can remember last week there was not any issues or they were less apparent, it seems to have got worse all of a sudden?

turn on heating hold the pipes into rad . does the one with the trv on heatup first ? look at the trv is there an arrow on the body of the trv to indicate direction of flow does the arrow point to the cooler pipe

 

[callum84]

Thanks phpaul for constructive input, I will try that this evening.

 

[petercj]

Next on the list mate, are you offering to perform it? :crazy:

Just trying to be helpful!

A woman in Lower Sodbury reported a similar problem - turned out to be a BG fitter who had got stuck in the cupboard under the stairs when doing a gas-check ... been there ten days, and no one had missed him!

 

[petercj]

Seriously now ... I once had this problem and it was expansion and contraction of a pipe that was tight on a joist.

But then why would it suddenly start out of the blue?

If no work has been done in and around the house, then maybe a joist has moved slightly for some reason, settlement perhaps, or possibly has become damp and has swollen - it would only take a tiny amount of movement.

If the knocking only occurs when the system is heating up, or cooling down, it's worth checking out. First step being to try and pin-point the area the sound is coming from. Try using a tube or a pipe put to your ear on any suspect areas.

Might also be worth running the heating on very low temperature to see if the knocking doesn't happen then.

 

[callum84]

We did have a carpet laid about a week ago in the Bedroom, but I didnt think that would have caused an issue? Ie there wasnt excessive banging but Maybe it has?

 

[petercj]

We did have a carpet laid about a week ago in the Bedroom, but I didnt think that would have caused an issue? Ie there wasnt excessive banging but Maybe it has?

If they nailed down new carpet grips, they may have tightened up a board, or even caused a slight shift in a joist.

If the pipe was tight before, then just a fraction of a millimeter could make the difference.

The floor can act as a sound board, and it's surprising how much noise can be created by such a simple thing.

 

[glenno1]

Are the grippers touching the pipes

 

[callum84]

Glenno1: No the grippers were gown originally and were re-used.

Can such a thing like the grippers/laminate touching the pipework (as per my previous post) above floor level cause knocking/pinging noises??

 

[glenno1]

What make of valve is it,some budget valves can knock a bit

 

[callum84]

I would have to go home and check what kind of valve.

The noise doesnt seem to be coming from the TRVs or radiator, more in the floor leading up to the rad??

There is sometimes a 'thump' aswell as the rhythmic knocking/pinging, which could resemble the noise of a valve but again seems to be under the floor.

 

[glenno1]

My suggestion would firstly be to turn the valve when the heating is on and see if noise comes and goes

 

[callum84]

Ok i will try that tonight also

 

[petercj]

Have you tried pin-pointing where the noise is coming from by using a pipe or a tube to your ear.

If the grippers were already down, could they have added some nails to firm them up?

If this noise is being caused by expansion/contraction just below a board, you should be able pin-point the spot by using a tube to your ear.

Does closing both radiator valves make any difference?

 

[callum84]

I seem to have pin pointed it to the spare room at the opposite end of the property to where the boiler is.

I tried switching the trvs off and on when the noise was happening but this did little difference, I have however found that when the trv is turned down to the lowest Setting, there seems to almost be a 'static' type noise coming from it?? Then when rad heats up it seems to go??

Also the more rhythmic bangs are when the rad is heating up/cooling down, followed by a louder thud on what seems to be the pipe nearer the hall (next to spare room) almost sounds like a valve type thing closing??

 

[callum84]

To be honest the TRV seems pretty crap, when u turn the damn thing to the lowest setting, it can actually turn further?!?

It seems just now (as the rads cool down) as if the trv is on a lower setting, the banging seems to be a lot less frequent?

 

[petercj]

When I had this kind of noise it was a 15m pipe feeding a radiator valve - they'd brought the pipe up through the floor alongside a joist with a knot in it, then when the rad was connected up, the pipe was hard up against the knot, and it made a hell of a noise. It would start slowly.. bang.......bang ........bang and then speed up bang...bang...bang...bang... then slow down again. This was in a bedroom too! Drove me to drink in the end!

Until I'd freed it up, I couldn't believe something so simple could make such a racket! I removed some of the knot using a small drill, and that was it, job done, all quiet again.

Could the carpet fitters have found a loose or creaky board and nailed it down tight before laying the new carpet?

If someone has laid a pipe under the floor and left a board loose over a pipe that was already tight in a notch, that could explain things.

I never knew why the problem I had started - the house was 20 years old, and it just started up one day.

 

[callum84]

Impossible to say if they have I would have to contact the carpet company and check I think, I don't think the carpenter would admit it even though he had done tho, especially if it has caused an issue.

Just hoping the plumber on Friday can physically do something to help as it is becoming quite depressing really, the thought of having to lift the new carpet and then the floor boards doesn't help either lol!

The more and more input I am getting it seems to be a problem which will need floor finishes lifted rather than anything else but I really hope not.

 

[petercj]

Try the easier possible solutions first.

If you do end up lifting the carpet, you will probably be able to spot any new nails or screws.

Also, look for boards with tongues missing.

 

[callum84]

Thanks petercj, if it did come to lifting the carpet, is it easy enough to see where the issue would be in your opinion?

I guess it would be a case of looking for the pipe work tht is shuddering or coming in contact with the joists/flooring?

Earlier tonight again it was the regular light banging/pinging which reduced as the trv was turned down, then a londer thump, which as I mentioned almost sounded like a valve closing in the hall subfloor, would the typical system have valve type components?

It is probably very evident that I know very little about heating systems unfortunately, but appreciate the time and effort this form has given me.

 

[phpaul]

Thanks petercj, if it did come to lifting the carpet, is it easy enough to see where the issue would be in your opinion?

I guess it would be a case of looking for the pipe work tht is shuddering or coming in contact with the joists/flooring?

Earlier tonight again it was the regular light banging/pinging which reduced as the trv was turned down, then a londer thump, which as I mentioned almost sounded like a valve closing in the hall subfloor, would the typical system have valve type components?

It is probably very evident that I know very little about heating systems unfortunately, but appreciate the time and effort this form has given me.

ok back to basics is a hatch so u can crawl under the sub floor ? if so investigate that way

 

[petercj]

Chances are your plumber will recognise the sounds when he hears them - might be something quite simple, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[glenno1]

Im sure your plumber will do couple of checks and find what it is

 

[callum84]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the positivity!

In terms of a crawl space, it is literally big enough to get into, the subfloor is not deep at all, so although access I available, it is REALLY restricted, and where the hatch is you would have to crawl a good few meters, and there are dwarf walls running opposite direction to the joists every 1500mm or so, so really it's not great for working underneath the floor or even getting a look.

 

[callum84]

Another thought, could low pressure be a cause of noise in the heating pipes??

 

[petercj]

Any luck callum? Did your plumber fathom it?

 

[callum84]

He said its the pipe work rubbing on the floor joists and the only way to fix is to open the floor up I am afraid, he checked the trvs etc and said they are all ok.

It will have to be done as the tick tick tick is driving me crazy at nights even though the wife sleeps right through it all!!

He said the boiler was working fine, he couldn't really explain why the pressure had been fluctuating (from .75 bar wed, to .5 bar thur, then .75 bar this morning) but he has now put the pressure up to about 1.5 bar (when cold)

So I guess the next thing is to open up the floor, I am 99% sure the noise is from the back bedroom but he even said the noise could be traveling along the pipes from anywhere to he honest ( probably what I wasn't wanting to hear!!)

I just hope the noise will be apparent when I am under the floor, think might just lag all the pipes at the same time as they seem to be fairly bare and the cold snap towards the end of this year could be an issue!!

 

[petercj]

If this noise started at the time you had that carpet laid, there must be a very good chance that its under the floor in that room. Most likely explanation being that the carpet fitters found a loose board and nailed it down tight. Chances are that it won't have a tongue on it, which will make it easy to spot.

 

[callum84]

Petercj:

I think it will be quite a time consuming job as I will have to create a hatch (as previous owners must have floored over any hatch that was there) dwang/support the new opening in the floor, then hope the sleeper/dwarf walls have crawl spaces to allow me to access the problem area - if not I will have to form crawl spaces or it would mean forming a load of hatches to access various areas.

The flooring isnt T&G flooring, its actual floor boards fixed to the floor joists, so I think I will have to 'hear' for the problem when under the floor but hopefully it will be pretty apparent.

All in all hopefully get it sorted this weekend.

Boiler pressure seems to be ok, (fluctuating slightly) but the plumber said this is quite normal for a combi, ie mains pressure / temperature can affect it.