An under-estimated estimate!!

[JDPlumbing]

Hi all

Hoping someone's experience may help me out here!

I provided an estimate for a job, which included carpentry that was to be done by a carpenter mate of mine (ex-mate now!!). Because he never turned up when he said he was, didn't provide samples etc etc, the customer has now halted the work until I can find someone else who can do it for the same price. The customer owes me for materials and labour up to the point of stopping the work. I am getting quotes in but they are all twice if not three times as much as what I originally put in my estimate. The customer is refusing to pay more, saying it is my responsibilty to get the job done within the "quote" (I have told him that I provided an estimate not a quote and that I did not tender for the job, nor have either of us signed a contract). I cannot afford to lose what would probably be approx £2000. It is evident that my mate quoted too low! The customer is saying we had a common law contract and that I must finish this job within the amount "quoted" and if I can't he will employ someone else and bill me the extra costs!

I am bending over backwards for this guy, and have had numerous phone calls, texts and emails from him, more or less threatening legal action if I do not complete this job. No one is more peed off about this than me, having been let down by one of my oldest friends, and I am trying to sort this out, but has anyone else had experience of this? I only provided an estimate and although I obviously do not want the costs to escalate too much for the customer, surely I cannot have a gun at my head to finish this at the original price, if it is certainly going to cost more?

I understand the customer's pov because of the let down but he is being completely unreasonable.

Can anyone offer any advice?

Thanks

Jonathan

 

[mountainman]

We've probably all been in a similar situation.
It would be reasonable if the customer at least went half-way with the additional costs, but he doesn't have to.
I doubt that there is such a thing as a 'common law contract' enforceable or not.
You really have two choices IMO, do the job and swallow the loss or walk and swallow the loss.

 

[diamondgas]

Does this help Jonathan? [DLMURL="http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/consumer/consumer_protection/144.html"]What the law says a service provider must do - Consumer Law[/DLMURL]

Did you give a written estimate? Itemise your EX-mates and your work or the separate work details in general? You have rights too as a supplier! Try and keep ya cool and comunications open if you can?

 

[Guest123]

If you supplied a written/typed estimate and he signed it, you have a legally binding contract.

Are you not skilled enough to tackle the basic joinery work by yourself and get a joiner to do the more intricate bits? You'd save money doing this and you could explain to your customer that having been let down by your joiner, you are tackling the work in order to get the job completed for him. Worth a shout.

 

[WaterTight]

Isn't the whole point of an estimate that it can change? Otherwise it's a quote. But if nothing is signed I agree with mountainman that you can "do the job and swallow the loss or walk and swallow the loss." I suspect you'd swallow less of a loss (and just more of your time) by doing the former rather than the latter.

 

[Millsy 82]

Did you give them anything in writing what did it say quotation or estimate? A small company I worked for a few years back had the same problem with a tiler (3 large bathrooms and a kitchen all fully tiled) and in the end it all went through the courts and the company won due to the fact that we did everything in our powers to get the job done.

1 Get a couple of estimates off chippies and present them to the customer to choose which one he wants and is willing to pay for the work.

2 Do everything that you have priced for yourself to do then bill them accordingly.

3 Work out what exactly he owes you up to this point and give them a bill for it then walk away. Before you do this make sure that you try every possible way to complete the work Ie give them new estimates for chippy. Be ready to have to take it through court.

4 Rip out everything that you have done tell them where to go and take it on the chin.

If they are arguing over the price now I would tell them to pay as they go as they will probably argue at the end.

 

[BLOD]

I did some work for a solicitor a few years ago, gave him a written estimate and he said he wanted to go ahead providing he received a written quote from me. He told me there is a big difference legaly between the two!
Also courts take a very dim view of "unreasonable " behaviour - can you prove he's being unreasonable?

Think if I was in your shoes JD I'd get some legal advice.

best of luck

 

[markfxy]

If you've stated on your estimate that it is just that an estimate then you can charge a reasonable cost on final invoice if youve had a few quotes of 2 to 3 times the original estimate then thats what the cost will be. he can't demand you finish the job for the price stated on your estimate because its not a fixed price.
You've bent over backwards for him but now is the time to put your foot down tell him what it's roughly going to cost him and demand any payment due and badger him constantly for said payment.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

How much will you lose if you had to employ another person
to finish off the job ?
Is your comunication still good with customer ?
Might be better to finnish job of as you know what that say :
Happy customer will tell min 2-3 people of you , but unhappy one
will tell everyone !
I fill for you , and I hope you can men age the situation to the best you can !!

 

[JDPlumbing]

Thanks to all of you for your advice and thoughts.

It has Estimate all over the estimate although the customer keeps referring to it as a quote! The communication channels are still open and I am still trying to get this job done to both of our satisfaction. Problem is when I speak to him he waffles on and tries to browbeat me into submission (or it feels like it)!

I like the idea of going in and ripping out the stuff they haven't paid for but maybe not the roasd to go down at the moment!

I am going to get these quotes or should I say estimates, from the chippies and present him with the facts. I don't think he has a leg to stand on legally but I really don't want to go down that road because even if I am in the right, that will cost loads of dosh to prove it that I just don't have!

I would like to get the job finished and them be happy, because as stated before, get it right and they may tell a couple of people, but bugger it up and everyone will blacklist me!

Any other thoughts/ideas appreciate, but thanks so far!

 

[Helpfulplumber]

It's not the customers problem that you under quoted his job, find a chippy and pay them. You go to court with this you will get spanked, estimate or not it's your mistake. Or walk away and learn by your mistake.

 

[diamondgas]

It's not the customers problem that you under quoted his job, find a chippy and pay them. You go to court with this you will get spanked, estimate or not it's your mistake. Or walk away and learn by your mistake.

That doesnt seem very "helpful" 'helpfulplumber' :lol:

 

[Helpfulplumber]

It's the truth, we all make mistakes which we can't get out off. You just have to take it and move on to the next job. I have been there, it's crap but it just business.

 

[diamondgas]

Good to know the communication is still happening. Can you continue and complete what you've got to do? IT's not easy working in a tense environment though! Honest and up front approach laying down your cards and showing figures may help? Estimate against costs and your profit from the job kind of openness maybe? If you can show that if you do the job you're doing it for peanuts or a loss then maybe your customer will be understanding? If not then it depends how much you're willing to 'loose'; you've most likely lost this custards word of mouth unless they're just a tosser in which case anyone they tell their story too might want your number because you stood up to him/her

 

[diamondgas]

It's the truth, we all make mistakes which we can't get out off. You just have to take it and move on to the next job. I have been there, it's crap but it just business.

I agree, I've paid for my mistakes but have never been let down like the op has! If I'm at fault I'd openly accept responsibility but when something beyond your control causes the dispute it must be a bitter pill to swallow...!

 

[Guest123]

The lesson to be learned here is never get involved supplying other trades, that is until your business is large enough to cope. Next time let the customer find and supply his/her own joiner or whatever trade is required. That way you can stick to what you do best i.e plumbing and not worry about other trades.

 

[northstar]

jdplumbing where are you based ? as someone on here might know a joiner.

 

[Helpfulplumber]

You will find a chippy to do it, might cost you a bit more but at least you get the satisfaction of taking the customers money!!!!!!

 

[Guest123]

Why not post the job along with your budget on Rated People?

At least you'll get 3 competitive quotes based on your budget.

 

[barronbathrooms]

Do you own rated people system 3! Lol

 

[secret squirrel]

It's not the customers problem that you under quoted his job, find a chippy and pay them. You go to court with this you will get spanked, estimate or not it's your mistake. Or walk away and learn by your mistake.

Not to be argumentative as we're all entitled to our own opinion, however, in your opinion what is the difference between a quote and an estimate?

If you've been badly let down by a tradesman on a job you were involved in how would you deal with it?

would you swallow the whole amount or expect the customer after negotiation to pay half or all of it?

 

[markfxy]

It's not the customers problem that you under quoted his job, find a chippy and pay them. You go to court with this you will get spanked, estimate or not it's your mistake. Or walk away and learn by your mistake.

How can he have under quoted the job when he only gave an estimate do you know the difference between an estimate and a quote? The figure for finishing the works often bears no relationship to the amount on the estimate that's why you estimate. ffs its not a fixed priced so how can it be classed as a mistake why should he lose any money over it.

 

[Thepropertyteam]

Surely we all as tradesmen can't go in and give "an estimate" specifically including other trades men's work to complete a project and then decide it was heavily underestimated..... , the customer choose you for the work based on yourself, your price and probably your friendliness, knowledge, etc etc.


I give all my customers estimates but break it down (minimum of 4 pages) to cover all "quoted for" aspects,,, I also state

Here goes.... Deep breath ..l.l
QUOTE
"The above estimate includes specifically those items strictly listed above only and does not include any additional work over and beyond that detailed in the estimate of works which is either requested by yourselves or unforeseen work that we come across during the normal course of our scheduled works as detailed above. Changing the work;
If you want to change the work, you must : confirm this in writing; and do so within 14 days, if you first tell us. We will then adjust the price if necessary.
The price will be adjusted by:
written agreement beforehand, if possible; or if not then later written agreement; or if not then
referring to any priced documents, if this applies; or if not then
a reasonable amount for the work done or goods supplied.
Every change which extra or revised work (as opposed to a change leaving something out) may mean extra costs.


Unexpected work
If unexpected work arises, we will tell you and ask how you want us to go ahead. If so, the above price adjustments will apply.


END OF QUOTE

Firstly I wonder what you guys think of this, but I did write it, and pulled some from FMB ! But in my eyes it states clearly what ; they and I am responsible for, surely "guessing " what a chippy would quote is wrong, put it this way , what if you had quoted on behalf of a plasterer, tiler and electrician too, but all were out by twice as much... ( not likely to happen i know) but the cunsotemr would need a second mortgage to pay that!!! If you pulled something apart and there is underlying
problems, or they ask for different work or more then yes, but I firmly belie the customer is right on this occasion.....

You need to sit down, work out were it's best, and maybe walk, hardest thing to do, and tbh I haven't walked yet, I should have a few months ago when customer had my pants down, BUT that is the reason I now have a four page quotation !!!! Enjoy I hope! I also don't know what was originallyy agree.... Always always get it wrote down on paper, and get a sign off sheet / customer satisfaction sheet on completion,

 

[Thepropertyteam]

You can't imagine any of us on here quoting £5k for a wet room, starting it then completely underestimating the prep work For new strengthening of all timber walls and floor and adding an extra £3k on!!! It's just not on! Bit of give and take but .........

 

[barronbathrooms]

TPT is spot on. I also have something very similar in my quotations. I always give a detailed description of works. And an itemised materials list. I think it is very important. I do all my own plastering, tiling and joinery though so only have to worry about an electrician. And he is as reliable as can be.

 

[Helpfulplumber]

I fail to see how you can under quote jobs be such large margins, you cannot hide behind estimates to hide poor judgement. Unless its really something that could not be predicted it should be in your quote. Your mate not turning up is not the customers problem, a structural defect in there house which requires rectification is there problem and they should pay.

 

[JDPlumbing]

I agree, I've paid for my mistakes but have never been let down like the op has! If I'm at fault I'd openly accept responsibility but when something beyond your control causes the dispute it must be a bitter pill to swallow...!

Yes, very bitter! All the advice on here is great. Good to know that others have been in similar situations too!

 

[JDPlumbing]

The lesson to be learned here is never get involved supplying other trades, that is until your business is large enough to cope. Next time let the customer find and supply his/her own joiner or whatever trade is required. That way you can stick to what you do best i.e plumbing and not worry about other trades.

Yep and what a lesson!! Still, you think you can trust your mates but..........

 

[JDPlumbing]

jdplumbing where are you based ? as someone on here might know a joiner.

Based in Croydon/Surrey area. If someone wants to get in touch please do. Just reluctant to pick someone from thin air who's work I am not familiar with. But might be worth a try.

 

[JDPlumbing]

Surely we all as tradesmen can't go in and give "an estimate" specifically including other trades men's work to complete a project and then decide it was heavily underestimated..... , the customer choose you for the work based on yourself, your price and probably your friendliness, knowledge, etc etc.


That's good info to put on any future estimates.

Would just point out though that the estimate I gave my customer which included the chippy's estimate wasn't off the top of my head-it was what he said he would do the job for. If he had managed to do the job for the price he gave me, then I would not have a price on my head!!! Lots of lessons learnt here!

I give all my customers estimates but break it down (minimum of 4 pages) to cover all "quoted for" aspects,,, I also state

Here goes.... Deep breath ..l.l
QUOTE
"The above estimate includes specifically those items strictly listed above only and does not include any additional work over and beyond that detailed in the estimate of works which is either requested by yourselves or unforeseen work that we come across during the normal course of our scheduled works as detailed above. Changing the work;
If you want to change the work, you must : confirm this in writing; and do so within 14 days, if you first tell us. We will then adjust the price if necessary.
The price will be adjusted by:
written agreement beforehand, if possible; or if not then later written agreement; or if not then
referring to any priced documents, if this applies; or if not then
a reasonable amount for the work done or goods supplied.
Every change which extra or revised work (as opposed to a change leaving something out) may mean extra costs.


Unexpected work
If unexpected work arises, we will tell you and ask how you want us to go ahead. If so, the above price adjustments will apply.


END OF QUOTE

Firstly I wonder what you guys think of this, but I did write it, and pulled some from FMB ! But in my eyes it states clearly what ; they and I am responsible for, surely "guessing " what a chippy would quote is wrong, put it this way , what if you had quoted on behalf of a plasterer, tiler and electrician too, but all were out by twice as much... ( not likely to happen i know) but the cunsotemr would need a second mortgage to pay that!!! If you pulled something apart and there is underlying
problems, or they ask for different work or more then yes, but I firmly belie the customer is right on this occasion.....

You need to sit down, work out were it's best, and maybe walk, hardest thing to do, and tbh I haven't walked yet, I should have a few months ago when customer had my pants down, BUT that is the reason I now have a four page quotation !!!! Enjoy I hope! I also don't know what was originallyy agree.... Always always get it wrote down on paper, and get a sign off sheet / customer satisfaction sheet on completion,

That's good info to put on any future estimates.

Would just point out though that the estimate I gave my customer which included the chippy's estimate wasn't off the top of my head-it was what he said he would do the job for. If he had managed to do the job for the price he gave me, then I would not have a price on my head!!! Lots of lessons learnt here!

 

[JDPlumbing]

I fail to see how you can under quote jobs be such large margins, you cannot hide behind estimates to hide poor judgement. Unless its really something that could not be predicted it should be in your quote. Your mate not turning up is not the customers problem, a structural defect in there house which requires rectification is there problem and they should pay.

It was an estimate not a quote, and the price was given to me by the chippy. Obviously it falls to me to rectify now, but all the prices I am getting from other chippy's are a lot higher. It was not my poor judgement for me to provide this estimate-it was my poor judgement of my so called mate!! I could not have predicted hijm being an arse!

 

[Helpfulplumber]

Splitting heirs, you provide a cost to the customer they expect you to do it for that price. I agree your pal letting you down is a pain but its defiantly not the customer fault. Estimate or quote you can't put the price up unless something has radical changed. I feel your pain used to happen to me with tilers, I now do my own tiling. Once you have these problems ask the customer if they want you to continue? It might be that they will just become a liability and not be happy no matter what you do.good luck

 

[franky]

I've been in a similar situation with a tiler, he done a runner wouldn't answer the phone etc turns out he underpriced the job and didn't want to do it.
Anyway I paid out an extra £600 just to get the job finished and out of the way, if its under a grand I would just pay to get it done move on, you'll waste more time worrying about this job when you could be earning on another job. If its over a grand keep all paperwork respond to everything though e-mails including email your ex mate with questions over pricing and what went wrong and go though the courts.

 

[Helpfulplumber]

Not to be argumentative as we're all entitled to our own opinion, however, in your opinion what is the difference between a quote and an estimate?

If you've been badly let down by a tradesman on a job you were involved in how would you deal with it?

would you swallow the whole amount or expect the customer after negotiation to pay half or all of it?

Estimate or quotation is the same you are giving a price based on your expert opinion and judgement, in truth bathroom refitts are not that hard to quote or estimate for that matter I guarantee I can do the job within the price. People price jobs so tight to get the work , I alway leave 10% contingency in my refitts to allow for the unexpected. I never go over on jobs, I have been let down but I always stay in control. Flapping and telling the customer is the last resort, plus I always put a bit on any trades to cover the risk. Better to not get the work than to get it with no margin for error

 

[mfgs]

Based in Croydon/Surrey area. If someone wants to get in touch please do. Just reluctant to pick someone from thin air who's work I am not familiar with. But might be worth a try.

What do you actually need doing? I am based near you and may know a couple people who could help. Drop me a PM if you would prefer.