Advice on boiler engineer's report

[E22]

Hi,


Would somebody be able to give me some advice of engineer's report?

The boiler had been loosing pressure: every 7-14 days the pressure would drop too low for it to function and it would need a top up. Homeserve sent an engineer on Nov 7 and here is his report of the faults.

...
Boiler in landing cupboard

Flue - Horizontal

Gas pipe at boiler - 15mm



Main Heat Exchanger 5388

Fan 397760
Burner 7623

Gas Valve 7625

Pump (internal) 6025
PCB 7791



BOILER IS BER

The boiler was serviced three months previously by Homeserve.

I paid for installation of the new boiler on Nov 21, but it continued loosing pressure (however, my tenants did not tell me that until two months later). Finally, in April Homeserve found a leaking pipe in the kitchen and repaired it.

I am concerned that the fault had always been with the pipe and not with the boiler. My tenants had been nagging for a new boiler for a long time and I would not think it impossible for them to make a deal with the engineer (I was not able to be present during the inspection) to declare the boiler BER - they have done worse things than that. However, I am not an engineer and I cannot make such judgements.

My gut feeling says that pipes were at fault all along - the same kind of pressure dropping. However, Homeserve says that there were all those faulty parts. They offered £300 for missed appointments, misdiagnosed leaks and general inconvenience of chasing them for months.

Can this list of faulty parts be responsible for boiler pressure slowly leaking? What is your opinion?

Thank you!

El






 

[centralheatking]

Wow, so to get to the core issue. You need to tidy up your chronology. I read ..Busted boiler 7 th Nov..engineer turns up no fix
so new boiler 21 november , and it still is lala after a new unit.
Your narrative is a but untidy and confusing. re arrange and we may be able to help you.....centralheatking

 

[Stu-B]

Are you saying the parts listed are all faulty at the same time?
How old and what make was the boiler which was declared beyond economical repair.
Did they quote you a repair cost of the old?

 

[E22]

Are you saying the parts listed are all faulty at the same time?
How old and what make was the boiler which was declared beyond economical repair.
Did they quote you a repair cost of the old?

This was sent to me by Homeserve as the list of faulty parts. Homeserve is responsible for the repair. I was not given the cost of such repair.

In effect - yes. That is what they are saying. Those were all the parts that were faulty and needed replacing which is why the boiler was not economical to repair.
Is it possible to have so many parts faulty and boiler still working - only very gently loosing pressure?

The boiler was Vokera Mynute 14-48SE. It was not new, but it had a pump and a fan replaced the previous year and according to the engineer who installed them, it was working great.
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Wow, so to get to the core issue. You need to tidy up your chronology. I read ..Busted boiler 7 th Nov..engineer turns up no fix
so new boiler 21 november , and it still is lala after a new unit.
Your narrative is a but untidy and confusing. re arrange and we may be able to help you...centralheatking

There was a long list of vists, which I had omitted. The boiler was not "busted". It was working, only continuously and very slowly droping pressure.

Generally, the chronology is correct:

Nov 7 - reported pressure dropping (which had been then happening for some time, but my tenants were topping it up themselves)
Nov 21 - new boiler
(boiler continues to drop pressure)
From beg of Feb - Homeserve again looking for a cause of dropping pressure.
On Feb 27 - established that there is no problem with the new boiler and pipework might be at fault.
(between Feb 27 and April 1 there were 9 visits by boiler engieers, gas engineers, plumbers, etc.)
April 1 - a leak in a pipe in the kitchen found a repaired. It was a small leak behind the refridgerator where the boiler water supply tap valve is.
Boiler is not dropping pressure anymore.

Another question:
Is it ok to have a new boiler installed without a filling loop?
Pressure gets topped up using the boiler water supply tap on the floor bellow in the kitchen.

 

[Millsy 82]

Really it's a bit late now as it's almost 10 months later.

What you should of done is get an independent out to look at it as in my eyes the heat exchanger could leak and so could the pump but what was wrong with the others.

Did you keep phoning homeserve back out after the install? If you left it months it will be harder if not. I would push and push for a large sum of money back as they obviously tried it on and got away with it. Speak to citizens advice about the issue and see what they advise.

 

[E22]

Really it's a bit late now as it's almost 10 months later.

What you should of done is get an independent out to look at it as in my eyes the heat exchanger could leak and so could the pump but what was wrong with the others.

Did you keep phoning homeserve back out after the install? If you left it months it will be harder if not. I would push and push for a large sum of money back as they obviously tried it on and got away with it. Speak to citizens advice about the issue and see what they advise.

Thank you!

I only started questioning the case when Homeserve was unabe to find the cause for dropping pressure. I have been in constant communication, but it has been impossible to get any sensible replies. For example, I have a complaint from June unresponded.

I have spoken to Citizen's Advice, which is why I am writing here. I am concerned about taking on the case where I am at wrong - not being an expert in the field, I cannot say with confidence that they did anything wrong. I have never had any major issues with a boiler so far - and I am responsible for five of them.

As a result, I am grateful for any opinions of those who have experience. Specifically, I am concerned:
1. if that list of parts sounds like a credible list of faulty parts for a boiler which was working gently loosing pressure?
2. considering that eventually a tiny leak was found in the kitchen, I wonder it that was the cause of the pressure problem all along. Would that be possible?
3. Is is legal to instal a boiler without a check-valve (I was told it was not istalled by the engineer who found and relaired the leak) and without a filling loup (it can be filled from the pipe with a valve in the kitchen)?

 

[firemant]

What is the new boiler.

And I am guessing that they have cocked up. If the boiler was running then most of those parts must have been at least operative.

I would be asking them to explain in what capacity had the parts failed.

 

[E22]

What is the new boiler.

And I am guessing that they have cocked up. If the boiler was running then most of those parts must have been at least operative.

I would be asking them to explain in what capacity had the parts failed.

Thank you! That was my thinking. If all those parts needed replacing, how was it still running? As I have mentioned before, I am concerned that my tenants made a deal with the engineer and the engineer agreed to list whatever to to make the boiler BER.

The new one is Ideal Logic S15.

Any advice on where I might be able to get an expert opinion on this in writing, if needed.

 

[Millsy 82]

1) it is impossible to say now if all those parts were faulty without investigating the fault but if your boiler was working then I would of said no it wouldnt of needed 6 parts.

2) if the pressure continued to drop after the install then I would say the boiler was not the issue. The problem i see you having is the time between new install and 1st call back to repressurise the system. If you left it months they may argue it's a new leak if you reported it immediately then i personally would say that you have a case to fight.

3) when you say a check valve is this on the filling loop the water regs state that you need a check valve on your filling loop.

 

[centralheatking]

Are you saying the parts listed are all faulty at the same time?
How old and what make was the boiler which was declared beyond economical repair.
Did they quote you a repair cost of the old?

wait for op to reply IMHO chking

 

[firemant]

Thank you! That was my thinking. If all those parts needed replacing, how was it still running? As I have mentioned before, I am concerned that my tenants made a deal with the engineer and the engineer agreed to list whatever to to make the boiler BER.

The new one is Ideal Logic S15.

Any advice on where I might be able to get an expert opinion on this in writing, if needed.

You may struggle to find someone prepared to put a great deal in writing, and it may cost more than it is worth. I would be reluctant to do so, simply as there will inevitably be follow up enquiries, all taking time. And of course one must be careful not to libel.


You may be surprised to know that your "cover" is actually an insurance policy, and is almost certainly regulated by the FSA. They can, and have done massively, fine Homeserve for shortcomings. Ypu should consider googling this. Get your evidence lined up, complain in writing to Homeserve, and state that you are considering submitting a complaint to the FSA. And do so if no joy.

TBH, I have no idea of the practicalities of this, and I assume that before you take it to the FSA you will have had to follow a procedure. . Which is why I suggest carefully researching.

Big firms get away with a lot, simply because they are big and most of us hand over he money prior to a job completion - and we have all been conditioned to believe that "possession is 95% of the law"
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Normally. there is a filling loop built into a modern boiler. Is your boiler in the loft or an otherwise inaccessible position? Can you post a photo of the valve?

 

[E22]

Big firms get away with a lot, simply because they are big and most of us hand over he money prior to a job completion - and we have all been conditioned to believe that "possession is 95% of the law"
[automerge]1567011245[/automerge]
Normally. there is a filling loop built into a modern boiler. Is your boiler in the loft or an otherwise inaccessible position? Can you post a photo of the valve?

Thank you!

The boiler is in a tenanted property. I cannot access it easily. I am attaching a photo from May.

There is filling loop as such. Boiler is in a purpose built cupboard on the first floor.
When you want to top up the boiler, you go to the kitchen on the ground floor and open a tap, located on a pipe behind refrigerator. That pipe feeds cold water to boiler - that is the only way to fill up the boiler.

 

[Aire]

As much as it seems homeserve have given you misinformation I think you may struggle with a refund. The problem your going to have is if you felt there was something fishy, why didn't you get a second opinion? There's also no proof now that the boiler was beyond economical repair, the heat exchanger could have been leaking and that alone for some would be classed as BER, the fact that there was a leak after the new install is irrelevant as they will just argue the leak was most likely caused by the new install, which isn't uncommon. Sorry to be more negative than others but I personally don't feel you have much of a leg to stand on.

 

[E22]

As much as it seems homeserve have given you misinformation I think you may struggle with a refund. The problem your going to have is if you felt there was something fishy, why didn't you get a second opinion? There's also no proof now that the boiler was beyond economical repair, the heat exchanger could have been leaking and that alone for some would be classed as BER, the fact that there was a leak after the new install is irrelevant as they will just argue the leak was most likely caused by the new install, which isn't uncommon. Sorry to be more negative than others but I personally don't feel you have much of a leg to stand on.

Thanx anyway!
That is exactly what is was. I was dealing with a major flooding (unrelated) at the same time and I did not put adequate time into investigating it immediately. I only started complaiting to Homeserve, when the same problem resurfaced after the new boiler had been installed.

 

[firemant]

The filling loop should have been fitted in a convenient place, normally in the airing cupboard.
Also, there appears not to be an auto bypass - that gate valve does not comply now.

Craig: had they just listed the HEX as leaking, then you are right, it may be enough to declare BER, bit they went pn to list a multitude of parts required. Which in itself is suspicious, IMO. Also, I am not familiar with the old boiler, but it was a System? Therefore the leaky pipe would not be subject to any more pressure than previously.

 

[Aire]

Craig: had they just listed the HEX as leaking, then you are right, it may be enough to declare BER, bit they went pn to list a multitude of parts required. Which in itself is suspicious, IMO. Also, I am not familiar with the old boiler, but it was a System? Therefore the leaky pipe would not be subject to any more pressure than previously.

I agree that the report is suspicious, and the leak was likey to be from the original system. The trouble is, if it ever went to court OP has no proof the boiler wasn't leaking, he could argue the fan and pump must have worked as the boiler worked but that's the only argument he's got. He's got no second opinion and homeserve will likely argue the leak was caused by a flush prior to install which as we all know is a risk.

 

[firemant]

I agree that the report is suspicious, and the leak was likey to be from the original system. The trouble is, if it ever went to court OP has no proof the boiler wasn't leaking, he could argue the fan and pump must have worked as the boiler worked but that's the only argument he's got. He's got no second opinion and homeserve will likely argue the leak was caused by a flush prior to install which as we all know is a risk.

You might be correct. But the Judge might know about HS's 10 minute flushes

 

[E22]

I agree that the report is suspicious, and the leak was likey to be from the original system. The trouble is, if it ever went to court OP has no proof the boiler wasn't leaking, he could argue the fan and pump must have worked as the boiler worked but that's the only argument he's got. He's got no second opinion and homeserve will likely argue the leak was caused by a flush prior to install which as we all know is a risk.

Thank you for this! I understand that I would struggle in court. I will try to push them for more compensation for now, threaten to cancel my three other policies with Homeserve and then file the case with ombudsman, if I get no response again.
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[Millsy 82]

If you had the leak and phoned them out to sort this leak and then noticed within 7 days or 2 weeks of the new boiler being installed that the pressure was still dropping at the same rate then push as hard as you can.

If you left it a couple of months after the install to phone them back then push and take what they give you.

Either way when it comes to the end of your contract get a decent local engineer in to look after your plumbing and heating.